Ok, folks, I know I live in rural flyover country, but is this the way it is where you all live with a few hundred thousand others close by?
Next town over is now requiring a demo permit for a cabinet installer who jerks the old ones and screws in the new ones. That’s on top of a building permit for inpection of the hanging of the new cab’s.
Just another tax and big-brother insult, IMO.
This 654-sq.-ft. ADU combines vaulted ceilings, reclaimed materials, and efficient design, offering a flexible guest suite and home office above a new garage.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Lots of the permit stuff is promoted by the big operators and unions who want to squeeze out the part-timers and DIYers. They get to write the rules, just like the oil and car companies write energy policy.
Lots of the permit stuff is promoted by the big operators and unions who want to squeeze out the part-timers and DIYers.
Really? Permit fees are nothing but revenue for small government bureaucracies.
What does a big developer like Pulte have to gain by creating new permit fees?
The only connection I have ever heard between unions and code is the plumbers not wanting pex replacing copper, or plastic replacing cast iron, because of labor reduction possibilities. That is a code issue though, not related to permits.
Try calling a big operator or a union shop next time you want to replace your cabinets or remodel the bath. Chances are they won't even return your call. They are in a different game,
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
It varies by locality, of course. But to a big operator permits are a just a nuisance, and being able to "turn in" someone without one is a good way to eliminate competition.I agree that forcing out the small operators makes it hard for folks who have a small job that needs doing, but the big operators don't give a rip abou that.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
> Permit fees are nothing but revenue for small government
> bureaucracies.They lose money on them around here. I took a permit on a deck a few years ago. Cost me $50, IIRC. For that, the inspector got tied up in two interviews with me to review the site drawings. Then there were four visits to the site at different stages of completion for inspections.The inspection for my electrical panel upgrade tied up a guy for at least an hour. Maybe they broke even on that one.The last deck I built, the homeowner took out the permit. I think he said that fee was $25. One interview and four inspection trips for that one.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
>>The last deck I built, the homeowner took out the permit. I think he said that fee was $25. One interview and four inspection trips for that one.
If you're gettin four inspections for every deck you build then maybe its time to read the writing on the wall?
Hey, it's simple. Dig the footings, they have to come out and inspect to make sure you got 'em deep enough. Put the frame in, and they inspect to make sure that's ok. Finish it up, they come out for the final. Make a mistake anywhere, and that's four.In my case, 2x4's are no longer acceptable for handrails on stairs, so it failed final inspection. Nobody passes with less than three (unless some money changes hands).George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
I don't believe permit fees are the money maker for this city/county, but if they know about the work done they can increase property taxes forever KA-CHING.
Well, they can't here. Jersey law is that property gets reassessed every ten years. The tax burden for the area is a given amount, which increases a bit every year. When the properties are reassessed, the total of all the property values is divided by the total amount of taxes. That sets the millage rate for the taxes. Your taxes are then determined by the value of your property times the millage rate.If you improve your house substantially more than the neighbors, you will feel the bite when the next reappraisal hits. Not before. The town in which I live is doing the reappraisal this year, so this has been a matter of considerable discussion in the papers.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Yeah, you hear people who complain because something like a development in the town is going to increase their property values and run up their property taxes, when in fact it's generally the opposite. The only thing to get upset about is if the assessment of your property is too high relative to other properties of similar "true" value.If all assessed property values roughly in sync with each other it's a wash.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"If you improve your house substantially more than the neighbors, you will feel the bite when the next reappraisal hits. Not before. The town in which I live is doing the reappraisal this year, so this has been a matter of considerable discussion in the papers."
I don't understand your point. Whether they reasses today or 10 years from now, if they know you've increased the value, they increase your property taxes forever.
Around here the property tax rate is about 1% per year. So, for instance, a $200,000 home is taxed about $2000 per year. Get a permit to finish the basement with a bath and conforming bedroom, it's now a $240,000 house come reappraisal. An extra $400 a year. So that couple hours the inspector spent pays off pretty well over time.
> Get a permit to finish the basement with a bath and conforming bedroom, it's now a $240,000 house come reappraisal. An extra $400 a year. So that couple hours the inspector spent pays off pretty well over time.No, the value of your property has increased, so your proportionate share of the community tax load goes up. As it should. And, since your tax load goes up, everyone elses (who hasn't made improvements) goes down, very, very slightly, since the increased overall tax base will lead to a decreased mil rate. The city doesn't ultimately collect any more money.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
...the value of your property has increased, so your proportionate share of the community tax load goes up. As it should.
I'm wondering if, when you wrote that, you are making a judgement statement of the "fairness" of real estate taxes or just stating how things work.
I don't think that real estate taxes are determined in a reasonable way. There's no direct correlation between the value of a property and the owner's wealth or income. If I spend $50,000 fixing up my house, I get a tax increase every year, but if you spend $50,000 on new clothes, you don't.
If, I increased the size of my house such that more people could live here, then (at least in theory) I'm increasing them demand on the system (schools, police, sewer systems, etc.) and it's reasonable for my taxes to go up. New decks and remodeled baths affect taxes, but don't add people to the system.
I'm not sure what would be a fair method, but it seems that under the present system, people are being discouraged from improving. Or at least being encouraged to keep the town unaware of the improvements.
-Don
It's how things work. OF COURSE real-estate taxes are "unfair" from several angles, but it's the way we as a nation have implicitly decided to pay local (and sometimes state) government expenses in most cases, and any time you try to change this system you open a can of worms.(IMO, the "right" way to do it (though probably too complex) would be to calculate the effective "rental income" you derive from your property, subtract off expenses, and add that to your income tax. But even that would no doubt need some sort of relief arrangement for your classical case of retired folks in a highly-appreciated home.)And I've never known anyone to hold off on an improvement for fear of raising their property taxes, regardless of how much they might gripe. Attempting to hide the improvement, of course, is done all the time, and is effectively a part of the "game" that everyone accepts.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
> I don't understand your point. Whether they reasses today or 10 years
> from now, if they know you've increased the value, they increase your
> property taxes forever. No, they don't. If the value of other people's property has increased more than yours, your taxes will go down, not up. In any case, getting a permit for the job will not increase your taxes now, and the value of your house will be set when it's reassessed, whether you get the permit or not. Getting the permit has absolutely no effect on your taxes here in New Jersey.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Excuse my ignorance.
So what you are saying is if a person finishes their basement, adding a bed and bath, with a permit, their next assesment will be for the same amount it would have been if the city/county didn't know about it?
I'm really trying to understand this, because I've heard this excuse for not getting a permit many times.
The exact way that property taxes varies from area to area. In some areas in the past they actually went into the home and inspected the home. But at that time many places also taxed personal property such as homehold furniture.Don't know if any places is doing that now or not.In general the tax value is adjusted from time to time based on values in the area (sales). In my area it is every two years. Until about 15 years ago the tax value was set when the house was last sold and then it stayed at that value. Thus there was a was a large difference in values over the years.But what where the starting tax value comes from is unknow. Specially when the did the first county wide re-assement that was suppose to bring them all upto date. I have in an area of house of wildly different ages, size, and conditions. And checking the tax values on line they don't make any sense.Now if you make a major changes in the house, say adding on a 1000 sq ft addition it will cause the tax value to increasse, in addition or any other adjustments based on general area sales.Now how that additional value probably varies. It might be from the decalred value on the building permit, it might be the based on the sq ft and featrues (bathrooms, etc), it might be based on done with some one that looks at size and featues and compares them to similar area homes. Sorta like an apprasial, but just based on paper records.But tax values are generic. Take two homes that where building and initial sold at the same price and the with the same features 20 years ago. One has the orginal carpeting, dirty paint on the interior, worn formical counter top, and flaking exterior paint, etcThe other one has granit counter top, wood and tile floors, new paint inside and out, etc.All things that in most areas don't require permits. If they where put on the market at the same time the first one would sell for much less than the 2nd one. But the tax values would be the same.If you finish off a basement without a permit or add bathroom without a permit, or remodeled the kitchen without a permit then there where not be any way for them to increase the tax values based on those improvements, but they would increase the sales price.Now doing thoes kind of things with a permit, again I don't know how the tax value is increased. As the, in general, the market value increase will be much less than the price of the improvement.But as I said tax value is a generic guess..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
> So what you are saying is if a person finishes their basement, adding
> a bed and bath, with a permit, their next assesment will be for the
> same amount it would have been if the city/county didn't know about
> it?Yep. They send a guy out to every house in the area. If you had a two bedroom, one bath house, and you now have a three bedroom two bathroom house, the city/county knows about it now!You can tell the township that you won't allow the assessor in your house. If you do, they will assess your house at the highest rate per square foot allowed under law. Most people let the guy inside.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
"Yep. They send a guy out to every house in the area. If you had a two bedroom, one bath house, and you now have a three bedroom two bathroom house, the city/county knows about it now! You can tell the township that you won't allow the assessor in your house. If you do, they will assess your house at the highest rate per square foot allowed under law. Most people let the guy inside."
WOW! I was not aware this was done. My house is in Kansas City,MO where they reasses every two years. I don't believe they so much as drive-by, so without a permit they wouldn't know until the property sold.
So I guess the fear of permited work raising your taxes is very location dependant.
...getting a permit for the job will not increase your taxes now, and the value of your house will be set when it's reassessed...
Maybe it varies by town. I'm in New Jersey (Scotch Plains) and my taxes have gone up immediately after completion of each of the 3 additions that I've done. Each time, the house was re-assessed and the tax adjusted accordingly.
Yeah, when the assessment is adjusted varies from state to state. Some only increase it every 5 years or so, and may do an on-site assessment each time. Others may do yearly adjustments based on the appreciation of properties in the area and only do on-site assessments occasionally (and somewhat randomly). In a few areas assessments are only increased when the property is sold (creating some messes, IMO).Re some externally invisible improvement like a finished basement or remodeled kitchen, if the assessors find out about it somehow (perhaps via permits) then your assessment may go up immediately, but over time things will generally equalize, as others do similar improvements and it becomes the norm for properties in your area to have these improvements. In fact, the person who forgos an improvement may end up being taxed proportionately more because it's assumed that their house is like the others in the neighborhood.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Maybe. I'm in Middletown now, but I used to live in Franklin township. The details which I have described are coming from the publications in the Middletown area of Monmouth county, but I didn't see a direct increase in taxes related to the permits I pulled in Franklin when I lived there. I did see a jump when they re-assessed there, and a bigger jump when the Republicans got voted out.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
the last deck I built required one inspection for the final provided I photographed the tiedown straps before I decked it over. hilarious
I had a job last fall that required replacing rotten beams, pouring footers and installing new posts, etc. Met with the building inspector, on site, and he says that's just "routine maintenance" on an old house, so no building permit needed.
In my own house, we were considering gutting the kitchen, installing all new cabinets and fixtures. The local building inspector said he wouldn't require a permit for that. But when I added that we might lower the floor and change the kitchen/laundry/bathroom configuration, he suggested getting a permit and inspection schedule.
This is a rural area, where the entire building inspection/code enforcement office in each town consists of one parttime person. There are advantages and disadvantages, I suppose.
Allen
Some one posted this in another forum and I thought it fitted in."I follow the permit laws whenever they make sense to me----but!!!!!! Having to pull a permit to change a water heater??????? Not this boy, not ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Permits are a double edged knife. Originally designed as a consumer/home owner protection against substandard work/materials, the normal government bastardization process has morphed them into strangleholds on the very folks the original intent was to protect.For instance, I was remodeling a bath in a house. I replaced the window first. During that job, the city codes inspector showed up to check the job next door. He came over and asked what i was doing. I make it a matter of fact to be nice to inspectors and cops----much more sensible in my experience. So, instead of getting mad/etc, I spoke with him at length---about 1/2 hour. Got some really good info----like the remodel requirements. If I did each phase individually---floor, walls, plumbing/vanity, electrical----I did not need a permit. Individually meant at least a day between each phase---or a weekend.So, under full view of the inspector, I did the entire remodel permit free---saving the HO some money.I did not ask the inspector the obvious question----how the heck anyone would be able to know if the work was legal five years later----since the work was not documented. He did not make policy, just enforced it.Then there was the infamous wall stud episode---a HfH house rehab job where we added wall studs instead of cutting out and replacing old ones. Perfectly legal---but the new inspector flunked us for not following the code---16" OC. I explained the code was minimum specs and we could doo better----but he said the code was the law and we had to stick to it. Took a phone call to his boss----and a training session with the same to get him straight."
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Permits were established to create a voluntary means of code enforcement. This means that instead of code enforcement actually going out and enforcing and catching the govt has you the homeowner go to them and tell them what you are doing. They then extort money from you to allow you to do it. I have seen with mine own eyeballs building inspectors get out of their car, sign the permit, drive away, No inspection.
Reasons to pull a permit????? They only one I can think of is CYA from the sue happy dirtbag rich people who seem to nitpick and complain about darn fine work just to mess you over on the cost.
I only do Handyman stuff for middle and lower class persons. These are real working class homeowners who appreciate quality work and will pay a fair price.
And before any of you say what your thinking I will also remind you of all the liscenced, quality etc contractors who rip people off year after year and some of them even pulled permits so it dont protect like its supposed to.
thats more than my 2cents but keep the change.
In NJ, I believe that the codes have recently been changed so that if there's no change to the plumbing or electical locations for a kitchen or bath, no permit is required if you're just changing cabinets.
I've done a couple of bathrooms now where I haven't had to get inspections. Makes the job go much faster.
Permits/code/land use...
Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. I replaced a shed roof on an office building a friend rents out. 160sf on 4x4 posts and beams, simple open soffit, metal roof. The city caught wind of it and issued the stop work order the day I finishished... ug. So they make me get a permit. I go down and discover that I cannot draw the plans for the repair/replacement I just did because it is a commercial structure and it is over 4000sf--the whole building. Therefore, I need an archy or structural engineer's stamp on the plans... It continues...
On the other hand, I'm trying to open the blackberry-choked alley behind my own house and a few of the other neighbors are opposed. They feel clearing the alley and using it will bring in 'undesirables' and trash their privacy... The upside is that by land use law, the alley belongs to the city and anyone who wants to can legally clear it, gravel it and use it, regardless of what anyone else says... Also, the guy who has a shed and fencing in the alley now could be fined until he moves it if I were to complain in writing. Powerful.
another reason you should never pull permits for inside work. 2cents
Sounds like "permit Fee" is being used as a TAX!!!!
In 1909 (no I'm not THAT old to have read it originally) the New York Times editorialized about the income tax: "When men get in the habit of helping themselves to the property of others, they cannot be easily cured of it"....
Get the point???? ! ! !
Dick from Omaha
Go figure. Parents in rural Indiana had a new breaker panel installed. Everything from the meter base through to the new panel. No permit required.
Here in Mundelein, IL, permit is required for water heater replacement.
And, if I read it correctly, the IL pumbing code requires a licensed plumber to perform ANY plumbing work, including installation, maintenance, and replacement. So I need a licensed plumber to replace a faucet? Yeah, right, that's gonna happen.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
If we're replacing cabinets without changing the structure, electrical or plumbing, we do it without a permit.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
On topic...permits.. it's a sticky situation IMO. Doing something simple and "cosmetic" like putting in cabinets seems like a waste of time and money for permits.
However, along with those new cabinets...new countertops go in....new sinks...new faucets...etc. It almost becomes a complete kitchen remodel....no? Then you do all that work...and say I remodeled the kitchen. Someone comes along later and says "cool....nice kitchen remodel. Hey by the way, while you did that, did you bring it up to code...today's code?" (This is assuming it's an older kitchen that is probably not up to code electrical wise).
I realize it's a pain in the butt to get inspections sometimes, but if the job's being done right..I don't see why people have a problem (other than the PITA factor) of getting their job permitted, inspected and signed off by the city.
That being said..we did a kitchen and 2 bath remodel last summer, where once we started....the customer decides he wants to change out the water heater too. OK..we'll do that. We didn't go back to the city to get it "on" the permit, but when the inspector came out, we told him that after we started the job, we (the customer and us) decided that a new water heater was in the best interest. He says "I don't see it on your permit, so you better go down to the city and have them add it on there before your next inspection". I said, "no problem, but while you're here, can you take a look at it?" He says "No, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist yet, I'll look at it next time." Most of those guys are pretty cool if you're up front with them, at least that's what I've found. Now and then you do get one who's a PITA, but hey, that's life.
Off topic..as far as taxes are concerned....I think deductions and/or credits for having children should be done away with. You have 1, 2, 3 kids...etc.. they become a burden (schools, parks, community programs, etc) for the next 15-18 years on the community. Now instead of the parents being responsible for that financial burden that's being placed on everyone else...the parents are given a tax break??? Now how is THAT responsible?? It teaches people that having kids gives them tax breaks, regardless of the extra burden it places on others. Yes.....I know I probably offended 90% of the people who will read this...but as a single, no dependents, individual...I wonder why I should be paying extra....to support others' kids...hmmm....just a thought.... lol
Off topic..as far as taxes are concerned....I think deductions and/or credits for having children should be done away with. ...
You didn't offend me and I have 3 kids. In fact, I tend to agree with you, to a point. I think tax breaks for dependants (especially school taxes which are paid through property taxes) should be limited, but not eliminated. We are, after all, living in a society that believes in a form a socialism and it's not really every man for himself.
And while singles living in a town with an expensive school tax carry an unfair burden, they also benefit from increased property values since the town becomes more desirable to people who do have kids.
-Don
I bought a house in FL. . If I live long enough I'll retire there. Meanwhile I wanted to change the front & garage doors to something the bossloady wanted. Had to get permits for both. Asked why as I considered it maintenance replacement As to the front door reason is it has glass in it and the inspector has to see that I have a piece of plywood to cover it if a hurricaine should happen so the glass won't get broken and hurt me (what about the roof should I get something to cover it so that it won't blow off while I sit behind my safe front door?). As for the garage door all the inspector wanted to see was that the hurricaine bars were installed on each panel and the new screws were installed properly. this cost me more time sitting around never mind the permit fees waiting for him they can only give you an about time they'll be there a four hour window it took him all of 5 minutes to sign off. here's the strange part I'm having a landscape co. come in & do the whole property over irrigation, lawn, and all the shubs, trees etc, etc, guess what no permit required go figya
ps sorry for the long rant but I also missed my tee time