A friend finished off his basebent but did not get a permit. He is talking about going to the town/inspector now that the project is complete to try to do this right. What type of trouble can this cause for him?
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He is talking about going to the town/inspector now that the project is complete to try to do this right. What type of trouble can this cause for him?
Well, if he doesn't get the permit/inspection, and the house burns down, the insurance company may use it to deny his coverage.
If he goes to the inspector now, the inspector could fine him, make him tear it out, etc. Or, the inspector may just charge the permit fees, inspect it, and he will be fine. Depends on the municipality and the inspector.
Why didn't he get the permit when he started, if he was going to get a permit? Why change his mind now?
deny his coverage.???Not likely
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deny his coverage.
???
Not likely
You would think - but it's happening more and more. A friend just went through this - his house burned down, cause was traced to a loose connection in the wiring, insurance company denied him coverage, claiming he had done the work himself. He had to prove that the work was done by a licensed electrician before the insurance company would cover the loss.
Insurance companies try harder to deny claims than they used to. If they can prove any fault or error on the part of the HO, they can deny the claim (it's written into the policy).
every state I have lived in makes it legal to do your own work, even electrical'course some still require permit and inspection though
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every state I have lived in makes it legal to do your own work, even electrical
'course some still require permit and inspection though
It's the same where I have lived. Of course, plumbing is another matter - have lived several places were ANY plumbing work require a LMP - couldn't even (legally) change a washer in a faucet.
Regarding the insurance issue, I am personally only aware of the one case. Showing the work was done by an electrician was the easiest route - the point was to prove the work was up to code and inspected. If he had gotten the permit and had an inspection, that would have sufficed.
Dad has been an insurance underwriter for many years. Used to be insurance companies were pretty liberal with the coverage. Then, people started abusing the system. Now, with many (most?) companies, they will deny claims whenever possible, making you prove that it wasn't your work that caused the fire or denying the claim, for example.
I suppose you have all heard about the difficulty some folks are having insuring homes they just bought - if the prior owner made a claim, many companies will not insure the house. Now that they have the national database that tracks claims by property, they all know which houses have had past claims.
Regarding this being in the policy, it's buried in the legalese. If anyone really cares, I can reread my policy and post the language. May not be obvious reading, but it's definitely in there.
I have been told by my agent that all work is covered (permitted and unpermitted) the reason being that most people do not own their homes. The bank or finance company owns the house until the loan is paid and they, the bank, need to be covered for a homeoccupier's "foolishness".
There may be something to both what you say and what Bill H said.Thje ins industry does seem to be in a state of flux. I was just reading this AM a report about Bershire Hathaway as an investment. Insurance and re-insurance is their main business. one of the strong points mentioned in the report is that they have made steps to reduce liabilities in teh way to write or underwrite coverage. or as you said - it's in the fine print - in the newer policies.
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Yes, there is BIG difference in what they will write a policy on and what a police covers.I have heard time and time again that is some area when someone buys a house the ins co won't write a policy if there is k&t wiring.But if they have coverage on an old house and it burns down they can't denie the claim unless the policy specifically has a clause excluding any damage from K7t wiring. And then they have to prove that the k&t wiring was the cause.Now when there is a loss they might look at cause to see if there is some other party that they can go after. But they can't go have the home owner. So they still might be looking at the wiring. That should not affect the paying of the claim, but often does. The insurance company still has the responsibility paying for the losses.But the way that they can denie the claim is if the think that it was done deliberatly.And that is where they might look more closing at what, why, and when things where done to the house.
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It is a policy in force kind of thing like grandfathjering.For instance, We have life ins on my DW that continues in effect as long as I make the payments every year.But because of her bout with breast cancer, it is highly unlikely they would write a new policy of if they did, it would be priced sky high.before anyone asks, she's doing great and has just pased the five years of survival!
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While I come here to learn from people who clearly know more than I, I just wanted to chime in with some first hand knowledge of what insurance will and won't cover. I'm a licensed property and casualty agent with one of the largest P&C companies in the country. In the past 15 years I've had the good fortune to build a $3-$4 million book of business, mostly through good folks like yourselves.
One thing to keep in mind is that insurance is a state governed entity. As such, what rules apply here in CT, may differ in RI, or VT, etc. Having said that, I've never seen language in any of my policies regarding renovation work having to be done or inspected professionally. Insurance companies deny claims for willfull conduct, not stupidity. I realize people love to jump on the "they always try to deny claims" bandwagon, but it just isn't true. If your claim's legit, we pay. If not, we don't. I've also never seen a claim denied because of claimant workmanship. Look at it a different way. If your house were 100 years old, how could the company possibly nail down work that you may have done versus work done by previous owner(s).
One other note regarding underwriters. I have the joyous (and sometimes not so joyous) task of speaking to them daily. Without fail, everytime I ask them about whether something might be covered or not they tell me to call claims. Underwriters simply decide whether a piece of business can be written at new business. Their job is to filter out "bad" business. To some companies that means no fuses or 60 amp service. To others they couldn't care less about fuses, but get immensely bent over a cracked and broken walkway or driveway (we presently fall into the latter category).
Reallistically, it is impossible to make a blanket statement about what will or won't happen to the OP with regard to his specific home insurance. If he/she were one of my clients, I would advise them to, as some one else said, "let sleeping dogs lie".
p.s. Piffin this isn't directed specifically to you. I didn't know how to respond to the general group so I just hit reply to your last message.
I understand.Thanks for the comments.for future reference - when you bring up the reply dialouge box, there is a drop down that would currently say to piffin if you were replying to me. hit the little arrow next to piffin and the drop down will opresent you a list of all those who have been involved in this thread, and all those who are activly online at the time. At the very top of that list is "All" which you can selcet if you want to.As I wrote that I was also wondering - what about all those policies that have an exclusion for using a property for criminal activity. In other words, if I were to use my property for growing pot and cooking crack and one of my "customers" were to trip and crack his head open on a rock ( yes - puns intended) would his medical nbe covere, or would I be recompensed if I were to burn my house down while cooking up that brew?
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There is actually an exclusion in every home policy I've ever sold that states if you substantially increase the hazard, then coverage will be denied. I believe there is also something similar for criminal activities. When I explain the first part to customers I usually get a blank stare until I tell them it's a "bombs in the basement exclusion...If you suddenly start building your own fireworks in the basement and you burn your house down we won't pay...". They usually understand after that.
They may not deny an entire claim, but I've heard of cases where the insurance wouldn't pay for unpermitted work - or changes to the home that they didn't know about.
"Well, if he doesn't get the permit/inspection, and the house burns down, the insurance company may use it to deny his coverage."Prove it!I have looked through the different HO ins policies that I have and could never find anything related to that.And in the past I have asked if anyothers have such terms in their policy.No one every showed one.In fact I got a couple of reponses from insurance agents that said that there are any.And I got a response from on underwriter that not only said no, but that they insure against "stupidity"..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Correct you are... I had a customer that changed out their own water heater. Glued cpvc to quest on the advice that a big box gave them when asked ..."do you have plastic or copper pipes?" Insurance covered the entire mess... and yes with the heater located on the first floor living area there was a BIG mess.
Exactly !
what you said.....
carpenter in transition
...to try to do this right...
Too late.
Tell this "friend" of yours he's screwed.
Hope "he" saved a bunch of money doing it on "his" own.....cause it's gonna cost "him" big time now!
Friend....LOL.....too funny.
Happy
Holidays
Maybe double the permit fee.
<Maybe double the permit fee.>That's the least that happens here...how bad the finished job looks usually starts the ball rolling downhill pretty fast<G> Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
Yah, On finishing a basementr, here it probably be a minor fine and pay permit, but for some more major things, it would mean pay a hundred dollars a day until it is made right, and made right according the tihe inspector.The hard part is like Mooney pointed out, you have to uncover electrical and plumbing to expose it to the inspector.
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You may even just have to describe to the inspector what you did, how you did it. Sure he hd can see what's visible to the eye, he can uncover a few wall plates and chech how you wire up outlets and switches. If your narrative sounds like its per code and he sees things are neatly tucked and clean, he may just require yo to submit required drawings and have you pay a fine in addition to the permit fee. No need to sweat the small stuff.
The main thing hidden behind walls in a job like this would be structural possibly and electrical almost certainly.For electrical, one option available here is to have a mster electrician certify the job, but that means he would need to trace every circuit out and test what runs where and voltage drop possibilities. I wired my house and the master that does my remo work for others signed off on it, but I left it open for him to see the rough in to make it easy on both of us.;)The scenario you describne depends a lot on the generosity of the inspector. Most of them are gointg to be inclined to not be generous with somebody who applies for the permit after the fact.But I know what you mean - Back in CO, I got a wave and a drive by sign-off from a certain inspector on a lot of jobs. He already knew that I was better than most anyone else in town and that I knew more about it than he did.
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Here in the Chicago area, not many master electricians would certify what they can't see behind drywall, namely conduit connections, or if for some reason a job was done hiding a junction box behind drywall, because the wire was cut too short, and not being able to access it. One's reputation and liability could be jeopordized.
my point - tho I didn't elaborate so well. not many architects or BIs would follow and clean up after the fact either.but based on knowledge and trust of the person(s) involved - maybe.
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A few years back I use to get a lot of calls from home owners and GCs that were calling because they got caught at some stage doing work without a permit. The city notified them by mail and gave them a deadline date by which they had to obtain a permit for the violation, or show up for a court date.
In some cases, the work was already completed, in other cases it just needed to be drywalled. So, I would do the permit drawings to comply with code. That didn't always match up with what was done. What was done would not always pass mustard. The drawings were always dated when I completed them, not sooner in order to give the perseption they were done prior to the work. I wasn't telling the city what was constructed behind the drywall, but what should be there. It was up to the city to review, comment, and inspect as they found necessary. In all of these cases, the permit fee was doubled.
Hummm - not to derate your post or your drawings, but the drawings I work from do not specify hardly any code requirements. Maybe joist & rafter sizes, header sizes, the number of jack studs, and beam sizes, but, for the most part that is about it. That's just the basic framing structural stuff. There is still plumbing, elect, HVAC, and all kinds of other code stuff (including lots more framing) that I've never seen on any drawing. I don't know - maybe the drawings you do are highly detailed...
You make it sound like you think I put out a 20 sheet set of construction documents for a 10'x10' addition.
You'd be surprised what you see on drawings that are specific code requirements reviewers are looking for on a set of drawings. Things like strenght of concrete, depth of footing, waterproofing, vapor barriers, clear height in crawl spaces, clear height at stairs, stair tread and riser dimensions, handrailing height, guardrailing height, window schedules, noting bedroom window compliance of emergency egress requirements, light and ventilation schedules, insulation values, gas curbs, type of mortar, type of copper water supply lines above or below slab, location of smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors, frequency of electrical receptacles, location of floor supply registers, return air, in some municipalities even heat loss data, etc., etc. I can go on and on.
Good examples...
Going down your list, I've seen about 1/2 of that stuff on residential plans. BTW - must be a local/state thing. I consider the plans reviewers here quite strict, but a lot of that stuff is just not addressed...
For example, here house plans don't address plumbing, other than fixture locations. Electrical plans would show fixtures, switches and special features, but not standard code required stuff - I don't think city/town/county plans reviewers look at them... HVAC not addressed on less than $1mil+ homes.
If he , you , covered up electrical , hvac , plumbing , etc it will have to be uncovered to inspect it . If the person , persons doing the work didnt pull a permit , thats big trouble on them if they were hired.
If its a pretty simple basement cover up then thats pretty much the heavy load of it unless the mechanical is now over loaded . This was really a bad idea since this type of permit is cheap enough and also HELPFUL. Actually for a HO , its a bargain to have peace of mind and family saftey. I could go on and tear up a path to righteous for protecting family but Ill let it slide since Ive made my point .
If there is any structural problems with this than it can get deeper quick.
The location really determnines how serious the side effects really will be . With me there would not have been any. BIs are there to serve and make conditions safe. They are public servants but have power to make it safe.
Tim
Your friend may be screwed big time but he may get a little sympathy from the permit folks if he pleads ignorance, begs forgivness, and becomes the absolute image of unquestioning cooperation.
A lot will depend on how extensive the remodeling was. Some paneling and carpet is no biggie, but substantial electrical, HVAC, and/or plumbing work will add to his problems. If he really went nuts and did structural work, he may as well find a quiet corner and open a vein. - lol
Hire a lawyer. Have the lawyer deal with the issue.
You don't need a lawyer yet. Just be truthfull and cooperative.
I think it depends entirely on your jurisdiction. And there are vast differences from one locality to the next, and one area of the country to the next.
But where I live, I would say the vast majority of interior projects are done without a permit. Partly, this is because once the permit is satisfied, it goes straight to the tax assessor, and you know what that means. And for years, it was because the local BI's were actively hostile to DIYer's. Fortunately, that attitude changed, and the current roster of BI's are downright affable and helpful, which in turn has encouraged an upsurge in permit applications.
Still, there are any number of skilled, licensed contractors here who prefer to work without a permit on interior stuff. Why? Simply because with a permit they are compelled to hire a licensed electrician and plumber, and they would rather be the masters of the schedule.
If the work on this basement is done and acceptable, I would tell your friend not to worry about it. It could certainly happen, but I have never heard of any insurance company denying a claim on un-permited work inside a house.
Before I get jumped on from every direction, I would say that I personally believe in the whole permitting process. It insures that the work is done at least to minimal standards, and that is the responsible (and ethical) thing do do for the sake of every subsequent owner of the house.
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have heard that same story about denial of insurance after the fact, but don't know of a real life documented case of it.
I am aware however that there was a movement afoot by insurance companies and some building depts. to work together (trading information) to prevent home owners from being able to insure a new house if it hadn't gotten all it's inspections and was approved and signed off. Much the same way banks won't finalise the loan until everything is signed off.
The Govt. Juristictions were making the case that it was in the best interest of all if the codes were followed , limiting losses for banks and insurance companies, protecting the homeowners and of course catching tax cheats.
I won't be surprised to see this happen in the future.
OK, let's refrain from jumping all over you if the work was done properly, safely.
Tell your friend , to let Sleeping Dogs Lie!
95% of the inspectors we deal with are real Jags!
I hope who ever did the electrical knew what they were doing?
Seen a few Home Owner specials, no permit, 25 can lites & 25 plugs & switches all on what ever wiring was there, like all on one circuit or breaker!
I think if it was me I would talk to an electrican 1st. Might cost a few but well worth it!
Here a lot would depend on how old the house is, how many times it's changed hands, and what previous permitted modifications there are. A lot of older permits and C/O's are very skimpy on descriptions, so if a newly installed wall heater can be allowed to gather some dust, it might pass for having been part of a "minor remodeling" permit from 5-10 years ago.
Better yet if you bought the house after that job was done. You can tell 'em "I just painted the room. It was like that when I bought the house" or "I just replaced the old heater."
The first step would be to go to Building & Safety, and ask for copies of any permits and C of O's on the place.
-- J.S.