I’m sure its been debated over a bunch of times, but pex vs copper, any opininions?
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Copper.
The plastic stuff is still evolving, and repair methods seem to be different for each generation. As a result, if you use pex, and then use it for remodels and repairs, your house will have multiple generations of plastic piping. And you'll need to have on hand all of those #$% crimpers (different for each generation, and about $100 each), and all of the varying crimp rings, and parts and pieces.
Or use copper. for repair, you'll need some solder, and some flux, and some sandpaper. The parts are available, have always been available, and are likely to always be available -- at the local hardware or home center.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
On the subject of crimpers, I had one of my manufactures reps for clamps like you use on air lines and automotive uses stop in a couple of months ago. I am talking about the one time use crimp on type not the cheap hose clamps. He gave me a bunch of clamps for use on pex and adviable thru I though one of the major pex brands and warranted for 25 years. I think that my cost would of been 3 cents per clamp and the crimpers were under $15 each. There were some crimpers that were pneumatic and cost a lot more but weren't necessary. The fittings were different because the lines were not stretched, but the cost was the same. The biggest saving was the time savings, 30 seconds per fitting adds up.
I tested the fittings by making a closed loop with a bunch of fittings and filling it with water. In the freezer at night and on the deck in the morning for a couple of weeks with no problems until it failed the mower blade test, oops.
Used PEX on a couple of under slab runs on the house I am building. Cost was 1/3 of copper and I didnt want corrosion. Have fixed copper before due to freezing and erosion. CPVC due to poorly glued joints. PB due to ...well who knows...it just failed. The plumbing place,where I got the PEX, will let you use their tool for a day or two without charge. The stuff looks pretty tough but you must keep it out of sunlight, amd it must be stored out of sunlight.
Pex won't burst when frozen like copper will. Pex is flexible and quick to install, but you need to buy specialty tools to work with it. Pex will degrade when exposed to sunlight for a long time. The "home run" systems where you have a manifold and connect dedicated pex lines for each fixture are elegant and provide nice pressure when multiple fixtures are used at once, with no joints hidden in walls.
Copper has a much longer track record and is proven. Copper is more expensive. Copper will corrode with acidic water.
I just recently moved to Florida. I was discussing this issue with my buddy yesterday. I am a big proponent of Pex for many of the reasons stated by Glatt. My buddy told me that pex is illegal to use here. He couldn't give me a reason for this, and I haven't investigated whether or not he's correct.
I picked up a newspaper and there is an article about how many homeowners in this area are having a problem with their copper plumbing developing pinhole leaks throughout the house apparently due to the water quality. (I believe one expert said that the water is "too pure" if you can believe that.)
I guess that pretty much leaves pvc. and boy, I have nothing but negative associations with pvc for interior plumbing." If I were a carpenter"
I'm in Lee County and we use PEX all the time so if there is a restriction it isn't state wide. Our water eats holes in copper so PEX is a real blessing.
Heydie-ho there neighbor! I'm in Sarasota county. Been here only for a couple of weeks so I really didn't feel like I could challenge my buddies claim but it sure sounded wrong to me.
So, are you in the FT Myers area then? Are you a native or a transplant like myself? I may want to pick your brain about some of these local idiosynchrosies. (Uplift? whaddaya mean uplift?) Are you a carpenter? Plumber? builder? international secret agent?
" If I were a carpenter"
Mark
Yes, I'm in Fort Myers. Got here in 1972 planing to stay for a year or so. Obviously that plan didn't work out.
I have 3 native kids now but I came here from Charleston, SC. I am a builder. Built houses for 5 or 6 years but then went to commercial remodeling. did that for 18 years but now I'm back to residential remodeling and new construction.
if it's eating holes in the copper, imagine what it's doing to you!
>> I have nothing but negative associations with pvc for interior plumbing. <<
I'm assuming you are referring to CPVC? What are some of your negative experiences? The only one that I'm aware of is that it will crack when it freezes.
Never heard of PEX not meeting approval in any part of Florida. Would like to know where.
I'm in Sarasota county. I'd also like to know if this is true or just bluster from someone who just doesn't want to have to deal with something new and "different".
If I get time I may just call the local building dep. and ask them. of course it would probably be faster and more informative to just call a local plumbing contractor and ask them." If I were a carpenter"
I am in St Johns County, and have loaned my Wisbro tool to plumbers in this county and four surrounding counties to install PEX on jobs that the owner/architect has requested PEX. Personally, I would not use poly-butyl (the grey stuff) or use crimp rings on Wisbro.
right no grey stuff:replaceing all w pex.just not sure about Wisbo:
where do you buy it?thanx
I buy my Wisbro products from Energy Reduction in Pittsburgh, PA. They will ship anywhere.. .ask for Mark and tell him Guy in Florida sent you. They are a full hydronic supplier.
good post, I think you covered it
glatt,Do you make the manifold or is it something that is purchased as a unit through the manufacturer?J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Look at http://www.zurn.com
they have manifolds in 5 10 15 and 20, h&c
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Looks like they only give you a warrenty if its installed by a certified contractor.
I'm a little wary of plastic tubing since I've had to do work on mobile homes in the last 10 years or so. Lots of bad plastic tubing out there. Some of that stuff got ridgid over time and could crack open if flexed. Many types had bad connectors (most of which were buried in floors/walls). Maybe the current PEX solves all those problems.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Most times when codes disallow plastic pipe, it is based on the FIRE codes.
plastic pipe gives of a considerable amount of noxious gas in a fire.
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Hmm, I do not see where PEX tubing would be anymore or a hazard in fire than any of the other numerous plastic products in a home that would get burned along with the PEX tubing in a home fire. Heck, I'd be more concerned with the plastics in carpet, foam (think sofa/couch), and all the other plastic products (insulation et al).
Maybe its just the Redneck codes. lol
I'm a little wary of plastic tubing since I've had to do work on mobile homes in the last 10 years or so. Lots of bad plastic tubing out there.
I'm guessing that's the old polybutylene (PB) tubing. The gray stuff. Yea, that was responsible for a few class-action lawsuits.
As has been mentioned, PEX has been used in radiant-floor heating for years.
There are alot of folks in this neighborhood with well water with high sulfer content. That sure does a number on copper. 'seems like most pros around here have switched to PEX, although it is not good for DIY'ers due to the cost of tools, as has been noted.
I've heard of people making their own manifolds, but I think most buy them from the manufacturer of the pex system they are using.
Pex is flexible and quick to install, but you need to buy specialty tools to work with it.
How much are the tools? Will they work with all brands of PEX, or do you have to buy a new set of tools with each manufacturer?
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
I believe the crimpers (one for each size you'll work with) run 100$, possibly a bit over. Not sure about other tools.
If as the other poster said, the crimpers are $100, that's not bad. I've got two or three times that in a turbo torch and acetylene tank.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
If as the other poster said, the crimpers are $100, that's not bad. I've got two or three times that in a turbo torch and acetylene tank.
Are the $100 crimpers all that is needed (tool-wise)?
That Zurn link provided earlier in the thread offered a $100 2-3 day comprehensive training on their PEX products. I might be tempted to make the journey to PA if the training they gave you was applicable to all forms of PEX (we don't have any local Zurn sources, but do have other PEX available).
Most of the plumbing I'm working on is retrofit/replacement, so if the PEX works as reliably as advertised, it could really be a time saver...with the added advantage of not having to worry about burning the house down while trying to solder in a tight spot.
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Hmm.. just did an Amazon search for PEX.
Looks kinda like its $100 per tool per tube size. Here's a 1/2"
View Image for $95.
That could get kinda expensive when you figure in one for 1", 3/4", 1/2", etc. Looks like something that should cost about $20ea.
Here is a combo one for $175
View Image
PART# 18031-18"COMBO CRIMPER 3/8-1/2-3/4-1" jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
I'm not at all convinced that you need special tools, by the way. I ran half a mile of PEX for my radiant floors, and everything connected to the manifolds with compression fittings. When I later drilled a hole through one of the loops, my local plumbing supply had bins of compression fittings - elbows, couplings, etc. - that fit my PEX just fine. No leak there after 5 years. I think I was using Statler.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Is this the stuff you used:
http://www.stadlerviega.com/
I went back and re-read that FHB article from.. 2003 I think it was. Covered some basics and showed the different connetion types (and typical brands for each type). I'm an information junkee (like to have projects mapped out prior to diving in), but it doesn't seem like there is a lot of PEX plumbing information out there. I don't know if that is because it is considered new technology, or because its 'so easy' that you don't need an entire book to detail it, or if its due to the lack of standardization in the industry, but I'm really hurting to find good installation info.
I was even looking at one of Taunton's plumbing books, however one of the Amazon feedbacks said it didn't really cover PEX.
If its as good as everyone is saying, then I'm really thinking of putting PEX plumbing in on my next project. Seems like I should be able to get away with manifords like you did in your floor and thereby eliminate the need for the expensive tools.jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Here's some info, you junkie, you...
http://www.zurn.com/operations/pexrh/pdfs/installation/PEXDesApplGuide.pdf
Here's some more...
http://www.toolbase.org/techinv/techDetails.aspx?technologyID=104
Edited 10/24/2005 2:05 pm ET by RalphWicklund
Ahhhh, good Zurn pdf. Pg 14 starts kicking in to the manifold setup I'm considering. Or as the FHB article mentioned, I'd probably do a hybrid setup with mostly homeruns except for BA sinks/toilets sharing a cold water line, k sink and fridge sharing a line, and k sink/dw sharing a hot line.
I've been half tempted to try and get into the Zurn training. Especially if that makes me 'certified' to install it (ergo you get the warrenty). Have to see what brands are most common hereabouts. Zurn certification is less valuable if I can't buy it locally.
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
John, I couldn't open your link, but that was the manufacturer.
I only used it for the radiant floors, but if I were building again, I'd use PEX.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
If as the other poster said, the crimpers are $100, that's not bad. I've got two or three times that in a turbo torch and acetylene tank.
Yeah, but there's other uses for that rig.Birth, school, work, death.....................
Very true.
One of the advantages of building your own house, twice, is that your wife lets you buy tools that would otherwise be hard to justify. "Dear, I really need the turbo torch, and buying it is a lot cheaper than hiring a plumber." I'll tell you, acectylene is the way to expand frozen nuts on the Farmall...
." I'll tell you, acectylene is the way to expand frozen nuts on the Farmall...
I thought it was for starting the charcoal. You mean there's other uses?!jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
There was a good PEX article in FH showing different crimping methods and tools.I've been looking at Zurn and Wirsbo and the crimping methods, rings and tools definitely are not the same.Wirsbo actually does not use rings.
The tube is spread to a larger diameter and fit over the connection, afterwhich is shrinks back down.
They have a manual as well as a powered spreader.
There was a good PEX article in FH showing different crimping methods and tools.
Do you remember which issue?jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
i could do an article search at the FH site.
have you tried that before ?
it was a fairly recent issue, within the last year or so.
Pex:for 18 yrs. a beach house we own has had gray poly pipe.what happens is the pipe wall is too thin can burst if notdrained well. the fittings where copper.Pex, thick wall different material, all brass fittings.This is in NC outer banks areas.little by little been changing to pex. this spring complete.Crimpers: only one brand: Zurn.. 100.00 at lowes. 1/2".Need one each size. Don't try any other, period!Great stuff to work with. Just can't use it here in Va.
re - Crimpers: only one brand: Zurn.. 100.00 at lowes. 1/2".Need one each size. Don't try any other, period!Great stuff to work with. Just can't use it here in Va.
-------Are you sure about the Virginia part ?Zurn pex is a common brand among plumbers in our area of southwest Virginia.
In Northern Va. insurance problems.where are you in SW Va? South Boston Halifax Ct?
Montgomery County, next to Roanoke.I don't understand the insurnance problem with using pex.
Would this be for radiant applications as well ?But I guess there could be an insurance problem even with copper plumbing in today's litigious society.
I don't understand the insurance problems either. Am I to understand that the insurance company crawls around your house and if you have PEX they raise your rates?
not sure this is enough of a parallel issue but our neighbor lost his insurance policy w/ a company because he had knob & tube electrical service ( not sure of its condition )
they have their issues
This I can see knob and tube is an OLD electrical system, it has not been acceptable to install in new construction and/or remodel for more than 50 years. This I can see. What I was questioning was an insurance company not writing a policy for a water supply system that is approved by the building codes of today.
Yes it has been debated many times, & opinions vary.
I do a lot of high rise residential, currently working on a 42 story condo. We have copper mains & pex branches. Main reason is cheaper & faster. Copper is tried & true you don't get many surprises with copper. Pex is new <for plumbing> been used for heating about 40 to 50 yrs. pex is quieter than copper , copper has a longer warranty 2x as long.
If you're going to use pex ,my opinion is not to use a manifold on the hot side for it makes longer runs so you have that wait for HW thing going on & that wastes water.
Oh BTW I always use the would I put in my house test. Yes I would use pex in my house, I'm perfectly happy with the copper that's already here though.
Run a 1" PEX line to a second floor for bathrooms, or to the kitchen, put a small manifold on and branch out with 1/2" or 3/4" feeder lines to fixtures. That way you only have to homerun one or two lines, and each of those can, in turn, connect to a large central manifold branching directly off the HWH.
I think the local manifold method is the way to go. I am going to have to repipe my condo by and by and I am looking at PEX. Even have an installer ticket. Want to run copper to the various areas and put in manifolds there, then PEX down thru the walls to the fixtures.
Had a shower valve fail after 40 years in service and had to take down the entire house to fix it. With a manifold system you can isolate the offending unit and live goes on for the rest.
Once concern voiced for PEX is that rats needing water find it easy to tap PEX lines.
One concern for copper - in my attic: one exit, the place stuffed with flamables and me wandering around with a torch.
That is why I am considering making up the runs outside with threaded connections so most of the attic work is done without a torch.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Pex is new <for plumbing> been used for heating about 40 to 50 yrs. pex is quieter than copper , copper has a longer warranty 2x as long.
Plumbbill....can PEX effectively be used in hot water baseboard installations? Is that what you mean by it's been used in heating for years? If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
It started out in Europe being used for in slab radiant heat. You can use it to supply your baseboards, Copper has a lot better conductivity than pex <better heat transfer> we supply copper baseboard & iron radiators with pex.
Standard PEX is not a good idea for slab heating because it lacks a barrier for oxygen. The water in a good hydronic system loses oxygen as it it stabilizes, and if the tubing doesn't block it, oxygen from outside will try to migrate back in. This is a non-issue with copper tubing but plastic is another story. There is a special multi-layer PEX-type tubing for use in slab heating that blocks the gas migration.
March 2003
PEX: an Alternative to Copper Pipe
by Dave Lovesky
Cross-linked polyethylene is tough and flexible, and you don't need a torch to install itA plumber examines the pros and cons of PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) plumbing systems, and explains the special planning, tools, and materials that are needed to design and install them. Included is a sidebar that discusses alternative methods for plumbing a residential PEX system.
I totaly agrree with ya on standard pex. I only use wirsbo http://www.wirsbo.com
& on heating systems I use wirsbo hepex.
http://www.wirsbo.com/main.php?pm=1&mm=1&sm=3&pc=homeowner/pagelinks/oxygen_diffusion_rh.php
That's mainly on my side jobs & helping friends & family out. I mainly do commercial / industrial plumbing & fitting. When we use wirsbo it's usually for small branch lines, our mains are usually copper or iron for a couple of reasons one they don't make pex in 6 to 12" pipe & two - pex doesn't meet our fire codes to pass through the concrete floors.
I like both, but neither is perfect. In my house I used copper for domestic water and PEX for the radiant floor heat. Something that I noticed pretty early on though was that PEX expands and contracts a lot due to thermal changes. I did a small section of floor and found that I could hear the tubing clicking and popping from hot cold cycles. I used an open loop system in my home so there is more fluctuation in the heating system lines due to fresh water often coming into the loop. My copper pipes don't make those kinds of noises and they go through more extreme changes in temperature. Due to the amount of noise that the PEX can make I started looking for info online. There was almost no info about this problem, at least a year or two ago when I was looking. I found one website that recommended using 100% silicone caulk on the tubing where the heat plates contact the tubing. I did this, and caulked at every place that the tubing went through a joist. I also have added several more rooms to the system. This method worked well for me, but it adds to the cost and effort involved. It's too bad that the possibility of noise from the expansion and ways to reduce the problem is rarely mentioned with PEX though.
Curious, anyone living in snow-country think about using heated waste water to run through an open tube (PEX) system that runs underneath your driveway? I mean, if its going to be classified as waste (i.e. it already ran across your body) and on the way to the city sewer why not make it pass through a tube section under the driveway first? Same for the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc.
Crazy?
Curious, anyone living in snow-country think about using heated waste water to run through an open tube (PEX) system that runs underneath your driveway? I mean, if its going to be classified as waste (i.e. it already ran across your body) and on the way to the city sewer why not make it pass through a tube section under the driveway first? Same for the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc.
Well firstly, you're going to need pretty big diameter pex to handle the waste water. All the bits of stuff that gets washed off your dishes, clothes, etc.
Secondly, are you really going to want intermittant heat on the driveway? Because its only going to be receiving heat when the water is running down the drain in the house. IMHO, all you'd MAYBE be able to do is melt a bit of snow and then have it freeze into ice.
The snowmelt systems not only have to melt the snow, but they also need to heat the melted-snow-water enough to make it evaporate... or keep it heated so that it doesn't freeze. And then on those REALLY cold days, you'd run the risk of actually having the waste water freeze in the pipes before it could hit the sewer connection.
I'd MUCH rather drive in snow than on ice. :)
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Edited 10/18/2005 10:28 am by JohnT8
It would freeze up between showers. You'd have to do a heat exchanger running glycol in the driveway/sidewalk.
"Curious, anyone living in snow-country think about using heated waste water to run through an open tube (PEX) system that runs underneath your driveway? I mean, if its going to be classified as waste (i.e. it already ran across your body) and on the way to the city sewer why not make it pass through a tube section under the driveway first? Same for the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc."
Creative, though I see a number of problems:
For one thing, it would need to be filtered, since you would not want solids or grease flowing through there.
Also, it would be prone to freezing.
And it would have to be circulated with a pump back to the drain, so the distribution could be complex.
What you could do is run a GFX (http://gfxtechnology.com/drainpipe) heat exhanger with a closed glycol loop. The thing is that it would only exchange when waste water is draining, so really good for a hotel, healthclub, or restaurant, but not so great for domestic use.
Ideally, your envisioned system might call for an exchange loop within a waste holding tank. This might be a natural for a septic system, if the law would allow it (septic systems designs are heavily regulated).
The biggest problem of all is that there are simply not enough BTUs in domestic wastewater to melt much of a driveway.
You could get more heat energy than that out of the groundwater using a pair of wells. I think this idea has potential for snowmelt.
I've read were a few manufacturers are recommending skipping the Al plates - less heat xfer, but no clicking. Clips to the subfloor or high on the joists.
I have a few Al plates left from my last house I was gonna use, but maybe I'll skip them in the name of silence.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
I've heard that the water temp has to be at least 10 degrees higher to go without the heat dissipating plates. I could definately tell that the plates do something. One section that I was doing I ran the tubing through the maze of joist holes, hooked up the water supply, and then started puting up the plates. I could feel the difference on my face and hands between the unfinished section, and the finished parts. A lot of you boiler efficiency depends on keeping the water temp as low as possible. I wouldn't go without the plates, but some are probably better than others. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a good resource to check on this. I made my own plates on a jig that I built, perhaps that didn't help. What I saved on DIY plates I probably spent on silicone caulk. My floors are close to silent though. I would recommend the silicone if any noises are going to irritate you. Even going without plates, I'd silicone at all of the joist through holes, and any attachment points, especially if the joist bays will be permanently sealed up. I found any noises very irritating.
You probably used flashing in your jig to make your plates. Probably lighter gauge than purpose built lightweight plates. There are much heavier extruded plates available (Thermofin) that will have proportionally better heat transfer and less noise.
If you do provide some space for expansion (leave the PEX loose in the 180* turns) , keep your water temperatures as low as you can, and try to minimize the delta between supply and return fluid with buffer tank, outdoor reset, modulating boiler etc, you will minimize the noise regardless of the type of aluminum plate.
Good resources are:
http://www.rpa-info.com/FrontPage/FrontPage.html
and:
http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2