Roughly a year ago I bought SoftPlan, and have been drawing plans for people.
At first I did the usual thing – Draw something, send it to the HO to look over, then get it back with changes marked up on it. (Rinse and repeat)
Then one day some friends asked me to draw an addition plan for them. And they were curious about how the drawing program worked. So I had them both over to the house and we sat at the computer while working on their plan.
Turns out it worked great. If the toilet doesn’t fit where they want it, they can plainly see it, and I move it while they’re sitting there. If a room is too small I make it bigger right in front of them.
If they want, I can dump it to the printer and they can spend a couple of minutes looking it over. Then we make more changes.
All in all, I think it’s been a great idea. Saves a lot of time and emailing PDF files back and forth.
One other thing that I think has been a benifit – They can actually SEE first hand how much time goes into drawing a plan. A while back I had some jerk tell me he wanted a house plan drawn PRONTO. He said: “It only takes an hour or so on the computer, doesn’t it?” (I didn’t do business with him)
I’m curious if any of you guys who draw plans have tried this approach, and what you thought of it.
Support your local undertaker – drop dead.
Replies
i like to have the plan developed so i don't lose their interest
also.. alot of time i will have computer issues ( my one year old has an on-going love afffair with a blue screen )
anyways.. with a preliminary developed plan ... i have no problem with going to their house and walking thru on my laptop.. or having them come to the office and walking thru the plan..
i use it to edit and make the plan conform to their wishes.. or point out some problem with one of their requests
i know several power users who will draw the whole plan and all the views with the customer sitting right there.. like 3 one hour sessions
but i'd hate for them to sit thru one of my 40 hour productions
"i know several power users who will draw the whole plan and all the views with the customer sitting right there.. like 3 one hour sessions"
I don't know how you could draw a whole plan in 3 hours, unless it was really simple, and the people knew exactly what they wanted.
"i'd hate for them to sit thru one of my 40 hour productions"
I find they after about 2 hours they're burned out and their eyes start to glaze over. At that point it's best to print them out whatever is done and send 'em home. Nothing productive is getting done anyway.
The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it [Thomas Jefferson]
"one of my 40 hour productions" ??????Don't tell me a house like "adverse" takes 40 hours! If it does, retire Chief and start using Sketchup! ;-)
Chief isn't the problem... Mikey is the problemMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's never come up, but I doubt if I would like having someone watch me do a design. I really don't like having anyone watch me while I'm working and having an audience would probably totally destroy my creativity.
My best design sessions include a little blues music in the background and my (alleged) mind "in the zone". The mouse pointer flies all over the screen and I'm clicking and clacking with the beat of the music. I've even been known to bust a move in the chair - although my kids have said it looks more like a back spasm - lol.
I actually have trouble getting customers to look at my designs at all. Most of them just tell me to "do whatever you think is best". While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I have to really focus on designing for them and not for myself.
Boss:
Nothing new … the Japanese have been doing this with their part suppliers for years. Cuts down on time, miscues, change orders & promotes ownership. They refer to it as “partnering”.
In defense of a 3 hour design session, I use the original version of 3D Home Architect and in about 15-20 minutes can convey the general jest of what their room layout might look like. Once we get a general consensus, then I take it “off-line” to refine it for a final review the client.
jimz
Boss,
We just finished our new home and moved in last weekend.
During the design phase, yes, we did the typical sending of .pdf files back and forth between us and the designer. It always seemed to take too long for him to get to our changes (3-5 days typical) and many times he just didn't pick up on exactly what we wanted. These types of changes went on for about 2-3 months. Yeah, it was frustrating; we wanted to build our house and time was goin' by.
So, we made an appointment with him in his office. In that 2 hours (the designer had to cut out early!) we downsized the main level 400 sq. ft., cleaned up the roofline, pulled in bumpouts, rearranged the master bath, fixed a pantry issue, and set the final size of the guest bath, laundry and garages. In that session, we could try things and 2 minutes later, if it didn't work, try something else. It was great. We worked through so many issues in that one meeting.
But, I think you need prospective homeowners that know their subject matter: what they want in a house. We had been 'living in' and designing our house in our heads for a good year before we sat down with this designer.
If I did it again, I'd definitely want to sit with the designer, but, then again, we don't plan on moving out of this house!
Rick
Boss,
I use an approach similar to mike smith's
I also do exchange emails / pdf with prelims or small "issue" type areas and possible solutions.
Being it is CAD, and going off their original ideas, many times I copy and paste the original idea and create alternatives. This works great.
SP has "Review", it cost users about $400.00, and the client downloads the viewer / writer free from the SP site. Clients can view, and make notes on your drawings.
I allow two client review / revision sessions. These are paper - face to face meetings. All other review / revision sessions after two are by the hour or (better / prefered) fixed cost based on the particular request.
Did you know that SP has "elapsed time"? When in the drawing, Click Misc on the toolbar and Elapsed Time in the menu. It gives start date and accumulated hours minutes and seconds for each drawing.
When the drawings are complete, many times I procduce a pdf "booklet" on CD or DVD for the HO's use. This can include survey, plat, site pictures, plans, specifications, HOA forms, permit forms, and other valuable info.
There is an $85.00 - $150.00 upcharge for this service. This cost is hidden in the design proposal, and inititated by a question during the first meet. "Would you like a pdf booklet with.......?" Clients have an electronic record of the project and can use it in a variety of ways, including laptop or email soliciation of financing.
Several have asked (via email) for a copy of my design proposal, no problem. When I catch-up I will furnish a generic copy with the pdf booklet inclusion.
I didn't know that SP had the "elapsed time" thing. I'll have to check that out. Generally I keep track of my hours in a spreadsheet. That way I can always print it out and show it to them to justify what I'm charging them. Most of my work has ended up being by the hour, rather than by the job.I've also done the "alternatives" thnig, where I save a coulpe of different drawings and let them pick from the options. I've found that works particularly well with husbands + wives when they don't agree on how things should be done. (Which is frequent)
Congressmen have been bought and sold so many times they should have bar codes.
I could imagine some very experienced pro's being able to turn things out in short time especially with the template function in Chief.
Ferinstance, you have intimate knowledge of trusses and roof layouts. That knowledge would be transferred into a roof template that may take a few hours to set up, but once done, can cut hours out of subsequent drawings. The next house would of course have a different wing or whatever, but your roof preferences stay the same.
And then the same with the rest of the systems.
The elapsed time is probably printable.
I've found that works particularly well with husbands + wives when they don't agree on how things should be done. (Which is frequent)
No kidding. Blessed are the peacemakers.
I checked last night - The elapsed time thing doesn't work in SP Lite. Last night I worked with a really nice couple. She's not hard to look at, and she called me "cuddly".Maybe she's just buttering me up so I don't charge them as much.(-:
A career is like hair color; There's no harm in considering a change. [Téa Leoni]
I use a drawing program called "Punch Home Design Architectural Design 18". I bought it about three years ago and it has taken me this long to figger the dadburned thing out. I still have a long ways to go on it to get it to the point where I can use it more effectively but there are some things that I've learned about it that makes me want to go shopping for a better more user friendly software program. I've heard of Chief Architect but it costs about $1400.00 as I recall, How much does SoftPlan run for? Punch does not allow you to draw and print your drawings to scale nor can you email plan views to clients. You can email 3D renderings but you can't email a plan view for example. What has been your gut feelings about SoftPlan and or Chief Architect?
I like giving the client a drawing of the scope of work they have asked for then putting numbers together for what is on the drawing. That way they can have a visual understanding of what I'm going to do and "that" is what the numbers are paying for. It doesn't matter if I'm adding a closet in a room or an addition onto the side of the house or relocating a window. I try to indicate all possible considerations and outcomes and so far it has been useful for everybody to have that common baseline understanding to start from.
BjR
"How much does SoftPlan run?"
SP "lite" is $1,000. The full version is $2,500.
"Punch does not allow you to draw and print your drawings to scale nor can you email plan views to clients."
Any drawing program that won't allow you to print to scale is completely useless, IMHO.
You can get shareware programs that allow you to print to PDF files from any program, and then you can email the PDF files.
Sometimes I wish life had subtitles.
Just curious if you had any input on this...
Entrepreneuers must be allowed to retain the wealth they create because only they, collectively, can possibly know how to invest it productively among the millions of existing businesses and the innumerable visions of new enterprise in the world economy [George Gilder]
"Any drawing program that won't allow you to print to scale is completely useless, IMHO.
You can get shareware programs that allow you to print to PDF files from any program, and then you can email the PDF files."
Yes it is completly useless in that regard. I've figured out a way to draw out of scale and print it but it still has limitations. There is a online support forum for this program but I have found it to be difficult to navigate through too. Does SoftPlan offer any support/training. I know Chief Architect does but it's a bundle too.
Do you have the SoftPlan lite or full version?
Do you have a link to this free shareware program you're talking about?
BjR
I bought SP "lite". All the learning I did was by reading the rather thick manual and doing the examples they provided. I don't use every feature of the program, but I get along fine.SP offers a training CD, but it's like $145. They also have training seminars, but I've never been to one.About a year ago I asked about the training CD before I bought the program. Here's the thread if you're interested:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=68991.1.This is the PDF freeware I use:http://primopdf.com/I've found it to be real handy. I no longer send MS word documents via email, but rather print them to PDF files and send them instead. With plans, you can set up custom paper sizes. So I set up like 24X36 paper and format the PDF file for that. It works real slick.
Do steers sign treaties with meat packers? [Robert Heinlein]
Chief is very good if you want construction drawings fast.. it will print to any scale
the learning resources are quite extensive:
7 set CD ( about $395 )
a 2 set CD tutorial comes with every license
there is a lot of online free training files
there is a large Chief Talk user group sponsored by Chief
and another yahoo user group for anyone who wants to log in
also DBTech has on-line training for a fee
and Chiel also has on-line tech support included in the price
and on-line tutors for a fee
this is a pretty powerful program which takes a lot of time to become proficient... my understanding from various sources is the learning curve is a little easier than SoftPlan.. , a lot easier than AutoCad
and easier than Vectorworks
it has 2d, 3d, a vector camera ( 3d views ), a render camera ( for rendering views ), ray tracing, terrain modeling, extensive libraries...
it is not for the faint of heart.. and you need a good graphics card and lots of ram... most users will avoid Vista operating system.. but it does support Vista....
Vista hasn't decided how it is going to handle Open GL , so it is a little crippled for most 3D cad programs
Chief is currently running on version 10.08a...... and version 11 is in Beta testing right now with a projected release in May
upgrades usually come along on an 18 month cycle and currently upgrades run about $500 Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
The Better Homes & Gardens home design program is a simplified version of Chief written by same ART company. As I remember cost is about $100 and learning curve is easy. I still use it to scope plan layouts with furniture & fixtures laid in.
Just don't try to do compliated roof & exteriors; it's not worth the effort. But it really lets HO or DW feel like they understand why things have to be so. Such as "you can't put both the TV & the fireplace there and put furnature you want in front of them".
Of course I then do permit/construction quality drawings alone with good drafting program, ACAD in my case.
Very good
Thanks
BjR
I bought a student version of Chief Architect a few years ago for just a few hundred dollars. It appears to be a full working version of the program. Only limitation is that you can not upgrade the program in the future. If a member of you family is a student, or if you just happen to be taking a class at the local community college (hint, hint), you can purchase the student version. If you learn the program and like it you can always purchase the full version later.
I teach carpentry and construction at a local community college. I wonder if I could still get the student discount>
BjR
If punch can print, it can print a pdf file.What you would need to do is google "free pdf"There are several pdf writers available to download for free. pdf995 is one.A pdf writer installs as a printer in your printers folder. So after installling it you use a program and select file>print>and choose your pdf printer from amoung the printes available in your PC setup.
When you print a pdf file, it does not come out on paper, biut askes you where and under what file name you want to store it on your computer. Then you can email it as an attachment.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Great info,
Thanks
BjR
I got sick of all the adware that pdf995 has (I was too cheap to spend $9.95) and got another one called cute-pdf. No ads.
All I get from 995 is a popup as it loads each print. Takles twenty seconds...But I have the Adobe PDF writer anyways - I think V4I just download a lot of things like to try out for awhile...something to recommend....Not everybody wants to spend a couple few hundred on the Adobe version.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know if words can describe how much I hate it!
i'll read the rest of the thread while I eat and then tell you why.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
OK, I'm back off printers and onto sitsans with design gurus...
Pardon my belching, but those fajitas were GOOD!
;)
I have real strrong feelings on this subject so right up front I want to be clear that i5t is MY opinions and the way that I work. Anybody is free to disagree with me just as much as I disagree with them on this - but lets not anybody take it personally, OK?
Somne of this is because of the way my mind works. I wear a lot of hats but I can't wear them all at once.
I am a salesman
I am a production manager
I am a craftsman
I am a designer
I am an estimator and book-keeper
I hold hands and pick up the trash but I don't do both at the same time.
I have to mentally shift focus and the way my mind works when I change from one job to another. Production efficiency takes a whole different mindset than creative design.
So if I have distactions, it makes it impossible for me to give my best to a design concept.
A lot of my best design work happens subconsciously in the back of my mind. I might work a couple hours on a design and then check in at BT for relaxation or walk down to get the mail when I hit a flat spot, then go back at it refreshed with a new idea. Ort I might sleep on it and wake up in the middle of the night with a brainstorm that solves a problem...
The kind of work that I do is remodeling and doing additions or renovation in such a way that the finished product looks like it has always been there and was designed by the original architect a hindred or so years ago.
I have to create walls with the full version of SP. The LITE version of SP would not be able to work for me. I have to be sure that the "existing" objects are correct to begin with. Any error there makes for problems later on.
So - there is part of my mind dealing with techmnical aspects like wall heights and window alignments between flors, space for stairwell in 3D, and floor depth of framing vs beam sizing; while part of it has to keep in mind things like light flow, traffic patterns, spatial concepts, practiocal use of closet and acess to same.
I proofread my drawings by walking through them mentally as though I were in the house, to be sure everything WORKS. I double checck that ten times as much as I do my typing here at BT (thanks be to God Almighty) and I redesign and make changes so that it all works.
Some of my better creative work is spent staring off into space - or that is what it would look like to anyone outside my head!
That is the creative side of me meshing with the PC and SP.
Try to bring in the charming salesman and great communicator now...Wanna know what that multiple personality would look like? Then add in the client asking questions like, "would the closet cost more here or would we be better off to do this...."
That would turn a gently simmering stew into a bunch of burnt potatoes and charred meat. I can't do all that at one tiome.
Another part is that I am one of those guys who does not like to work with somebody looking over my shoulder. I can gaurantee you will NOT get the best work out of me that way.
A third part is that my client base is for the most part too busy to sit with me for hours at end AND they have seen my work and talked to other customers of mine so they know what I am capable of doing. They express confidence in me and let me do my job on their behalf.
We have an interview where I ask them enough questions and take notes so that I have a good idea what the goals are and the budget -if there is one. I ask questions that lead each spouse to answer the same thing in different ways. I get a feel for what is most important to each of them and what is likely to be accepted as compromise.
I hand scketch some rough ideas sometimes right then and there to add to the feel for what sort of concept they are likely to like. This initial interview is normally about 2 hours. I often leave with a check for deposit.
Sometimes I come back to them with a single presentation that is totally accepted, somethimes they offer a wish to change this or that to modify things and they accept the second plan.
It may be the type of houses also, in addition to my mental workings and the type of client that is different. I'm confident that I could sit down with somebody and have a simple ranch all drawn up nice in two hours or so.
I have only had two customers who wanted a LOT of back and forth of the kind where it is really necessary to sit with them through design work. One was a woman who wanted her cake and eat it too. She started out with a budget of about 50-55 grand and i designed to that. Tehn she started adding features like dormers and balconey and porch. That brought the estimate up to more like 76K, but she still wanted the job done for no more than 55, "But you said..."
I bailed on her. Her son did the job for 55 but she got5 far less than had I done it. The job is a constant source of entertainment when I drive past.
The other customer feeling like that much involvment on their part is necessary - well, the jury is still out on that job. We'll see.
I did take my laptop once to make a presentation instead of using printouts. It was buggy that day. I still don't know why. I have used it since with out having the same problems, but that was an embarrassment. I could open the main drawing and create a 3D view which was the main reason - but I could not get the camera to move that day. Luckily, theese were past customers and the only change was that she got a picture from a magazine asn asked can we make the windows by the bed more like these?
So I made that change at home and emailed the PDF to her. Go build it Paul.
Short version of all the above -
I do good design work.
My impression of the type customer who wants to control me hands-on telling me where to put this and that does not need a designer, they need a draftsman - or their own cheapo CAD program. They display an inability to communicate what it is they want - and believe me, I am a very good listener. Poor commumicators will never be happy with the end product, partly because they don't really know what they want or because what they want is impossible.
I also think they tend towards being control freaks. That may be OK if all you are doing is the drawings, but I do design/build. That indication give me a reason to run before I get too involved in a six month or year long project with them. A control freak could ruin a job - or even ruin a business.
I take my truck to the mechanic and tell him - "Hey Bobby, that front wheel seems like it is having some vibrations, and it is making just a little clicking sound. Think it might be a bearing, but take a look and see what you find, call me when its done and thanks a lot!"
I do not stand there and tell him how to drive the rig up on the lift or how to take the wheel off....
I have confidence that he knows his business.
When somebody comes to you for a truss packagae, do yuou let them participate in deciding what size chords to use and how many web sticks? I doubt it.
I'm not really saying that your friends were expressing any thoughts that you did not know how to do this. Since they are friends, you probably have alot in common and have some idea how they think and enjoyed the whole session with them.
From their POV, they were probaly impressed with the program, its abilities and had fun seeing it in action.
But from MY own experience and POV, it is not the most professional way of going about this business.
I tried this once recently. The couple was from away and they had an opertunity to come here. They are not very computer lioterate so emails of drawings are not the best idea. I had done the basic concept and had not yet gottento finalizing the design, and I did not have settled in my own mind how they thought well enough to get into too much detail on it, so I thought - hey why not.
There were, I admitt, a few good ideas come out of the process more or less in fast time, but I had the wife on one side of me, the husabnd on the other. They would both speak at once and they did not agree with each other. There were times I had to speak as a fourth grade schoolmarm, and I made so many cahnges rapid fire thaty a lot of errors crept into the drawing. Of course, that was one saved from the concept as a practice shot so my work was preserved from before their arrival.
I spent the next morning for a few hours redrawing before printing to get the details right so much of the time efficency was wasted - and the whol process leeft me feeling so emotionally wasted that I swore I would never approach it like that again.
BTW, I explained that to them and they understand.
So from now on - my appraoch is back to the same interview - design - presentation - revision(s).
I just can't work with somebody looking over my shoulder and telling me how. They can say I want more closet space opr can we get more light in this room, or we really need the laundry closer to...
But if they need to tell me how to do it, they are not the right customer for me and i am not the right "designer" for them.
No offense meant to anybody who can make it work differently
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Don't sugar coat it Paul - Tell me what you REALLY think.(-:Just to make sure you're thinking the same thing I am - I never meant that the HOs should be in on the WHOLE design process. Typically they have a sketch of what they want. I input that into a rough floor plan, and THEN have them over to discuss what will and what won't work with their idea. We move things around until the floor plan is 80 to 90% finished. Then they head home and I keep working. I don't try to finish every tiny detail while they're sitting there. I don't work on roofs and elevations while they're around. Or foundation plans.I don't ask the HOs to TELL me how to draw their plan. So I don't think your analogy about you telling your mechanic how to work on your truck is relevant. I do the drawing, but use the fact that they HOs are there to make showing what will and what won't work go faster.I do appreciate your perspective, even if we don't
Vegetarian: Indian word for lousy hunter.