I am considering building a 3,000-4,000 sf house in Connecticut, and am looking for some sample cost estimates, work break down, specs, and trades involved. Using the samples as inspiration, I would develop a project plan, cost estimates, and contract documents (hopefully short, simple, and clear) that are appropriate for my project. In general, any pointers to sources for information on learning more in this connection would be useful. I searched in the posts here, didn’t have much luck so far.
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Do you have the experience to know what you're looking at if someone did give you such a set of documents? Not trying to be a smartazz, but you're about to undertake a huge endeavor (probably a $500-750,000 project- hard costs)- are you sure you know enough to put this together? I ask because if you have the background and experience necessary to pull off such a project, you'd typically have access to the info you're looking for already.
Bob
Fair question. Yes, I do have the experience to understand such documents.
Try this.http://www.building-cost.net/It will give some idea of the breakdown.
Get a copy of "Contracting Your Home" from Amazon. It is about as simple as you can get and has a number of good charts and spreadsheet layouts. If this book turns out to be past your level of expertise - STOP and get a contractor.
Tigger
I checked out building_cost.net. It is interesting, though I am left wondering how the "black box" computes the numbers. As is often the case, making things simple means trading-off detail. I'll also check out books.
I recall seeing some posts here over the last couple of years where folks had come up with some spreadsheet type of calculations, but can't seem to find them - there are a lot of posts in this forum. Hoping I can get hold of something like that as a starting point.In the interest of keeping my original post brief, I had left out some information. Twenty-plus years ago, before I changed careers, I used to make a living in an environment of commercial and institutional building design - I used to do working drawings. In that environment people specialize on things. The estimators do just estimates, the spec writers pound out reams of specs on a single project. For instance, I as well as others drew things that we had never seen or understood. That said, somehow it all worked out. OK, all of you in the construction business can stop chuckling now.Over the last 5-8 years as I did things hands-on around the house, I began to have a better idea of the practical aspect of things. While I had never worked on a residential project in my prior life, my guess is I'll be able to understand what is going on. Thing is, the level of detail in a residential project is lesser. If I handed a contractor specs that are a few thousand pages, he'd probably get in his truck and leave. I think the key is to focus on the essential things, and keep them brief. Neither do I want to rely on the building code alone. I am hoping to get to a desirable balance between detail and brevity. I thought some of the construction folks in this forum might be able to point out examples of residential specs etc. they found to be practical and useful, for both contractor and the owner.I found the material from Building Science Corp to be useful, and purchased their book. I am learning quite a bit from it. In casual discussions with some contractors, I find that their practices are contrary to some things that make sense. My goal is to have a clear idea on good ways to build. Then, I'll find contractors whose thinking and mine are aligned.
>>My goal is to have a clear idea on good ways to build. Then, I'll find contractors whose thinking and mine are aligned.
What you seem to be talking about is basically becomming a very talented architect, at least on the technical aspects of residential building.
No question it can be done. Architects do it. ;-)
I think a lot of us here seem to have a similar attitude to yours. I can't sit still if I don't understand why I'm doing something a certain way. I have to at least understand whatever science or engineering is behind it, even though I'll never be enough of an expert to have come up with most of whatever "it" is.
My recollection is that JLC has a book on best practices in residential construction. Tons of the picky details in so many disciplines that can otherwise take years to pick up. Also a troubleshooting book with similar good info. Might be a good place to start.
returning from a quick search -- Here's a link:
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/EN/UserTemplate/51
Another good place are books on architectural drafting standards.
Neither the field guides nor the drafting standards get into deep explanations of why the details are what they are, but it gives you a starting point to at least start asking yourself the right questions and go from there.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
This type of post comes around on a pretty regular basis. The variable is that sometimes the Poster wants info specific to his/ her area and other times they don't specify which area to which they are referring.
The upshot is - It doesn't matter.
You are asking for a price list and scope of work/ trades diagram, outlined similar to what you may find in the inventory program at any of the big boxes. Well, that doesn't exist unless you ask a specific GC regarding a specific project - including drawings - on a specific site.
This info takes years to accumulate. Funny thing is, is it only pertains to a single company and not the market as a whole. It is also a result of choreographing Electrician A with Framer K, with Drywaller T... Same job with different subs = a different equation.
The DIY shows make renovating and building houses look easy and fun. What you don't get to see is the support staff behind each segment, the number of takes to get a "clear" picture of what is involved and a true evaluation of the final result. I see them applying paint samples in the middle of a wall using a brush. If I ever did that I would get a complaint during the punchlist to "repair" the brush marks which are now visible in the final coat.
Being a GC is a real profession - a career. There is a lot of learning - mostly from the school of hard knocks - and lots of experience required. We must understand materials, design and relationships between said materials - with respect to time, enviroment, trades, mentalities and Clients. Doing this in the neighborhood of a 3-4000 sqft house isn't for amateurs. Oh yeah, it really is a full time job, especially during your first one.
I am sure you already subscribe to FHB. Have you subscribed to JLC? Both are musts. Then start buying many of the books advertised therein. DVDs are also helpful - not so you can do the job yourself, but so you understand the mantality and process of each trade.
One last thing. I have not mentioned architects. Do you intend to design this yourself? As much as we like razzing them here and at work, they are an integral part of the building process. Architects did not go to 5 years of college or 3 years of grad school to learn stuff a layman already knows.
It is great that you have a drafting background. This will come in quite handy. But you also mentioned that you really didn't understand what you were drawing. - not so handy.
It's like my old professors used to say - "Go out and do all the research you can. Then do a little more. Write an outline, then rewrite it. Then we can discuss the subject." Didn't like it then, but it makes sense now.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Hey Frankie, not to be a jerk about it but architects don't have to go to 5 years of college and three years of grad school either.
Four year college degree in NAAB accredited program meets the educational requirements in most states.
Architects are smart, but it ain't rocket surgery. Non architects can't fairly be called laymen IMHO. It ain't medicine, it ain't law and it ain't priesthood.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Your being a jerk doesn't enter into it. HAR! HAR! HAR!I believe I wrote 5 yrs of undergrad OR 3 yrs of grad. That's what was offered in my program and other programs I considered. I am unaware of a 4 yr professional degree program.Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention the 3 yr apprenticeship required before being ELIGIBLE to take the licensing exam.Just because it is not rocket science or brain surgury doesn't mean it's instinctual. Those who think it is are blessed with an engineers and designers mind and unfortunately don't realize its value. Non-architects are laymen. Laymen can have a certain knowledge of a certain subject but do not have full comprehension of the profession. They can create a wish list and a basic design of what they imagine they want but it requires an education - school or in the field - to create the complete package. Similar to just because someone can change a dimmer control doesn't mean they understand the hows and whys of wiring a house and therefore are not electricians.We all, well most of us, can learn to be whatever we want. We aren't, by just thinking we are.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
>>I am unaware of a 4 yr professional degree program.
Just FYI. In your state (New York) you don't actually even need a bachelor's degree to become a licensed architect.
A bachelor's degree in architecture (4 year program, from an accredited program of course) is enough, plus three years of work experience. If your bachelors is not in architecture, a masters in architecture is also acceptable. If you have the masters, you can get one year knocked off the three years experience requirement.
If neither, 12 years of suitable experience does the trick; no degree required, no additional work experience required.
The specific requirements for licensure are contained in Title 8, Article 147, Section 7304 of New York's Education Law and Part 69 of the Commissioner's Regulations.
Here's the accrediting body for college archy programs.
http://www.naab.org/
I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe the requirements were tougher when you came up. But for now, a 4 year program bachelors in architecture is the education requirement. Plus the extra three years in the school of hard knocks work experience.
I'm still a licensed professional from before a career change (licensed attorney still -- things worked out and I "semi-retired" into construction) and I appreciate the value that education and experience bring to the table. But just like anyone of reasonable intelligence can get a driver's license, anyone of reasonable intelligence can get a license to practice law or an architect's license if you are willing to get the education and experience. All the license really proves is you can do it for pay. If you go to a good school, do well and pay your dues for many years, you get payed well. Doesn't always mean smarter, just better paid.
The architect I work with has years of experience, but I still teach him things all the time, and of course he teaches me. When I need the stamp I call the architect. When I have a question I'm not super confident I fully understand and know the right answer to, I call the architect or the engineer.
But I have yet to do any project of any size where I didn't have to point out some mistake or another they made somewhere along the way. My relationship with them is such that neither side gets defensive or upset about it -- we work together well to get the job done. They're just not as invested in my project as much as I am -- no fault in that but archy's don't have a monopoly on how to build right.
Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. Slow day today.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 4/12/2006 1:03 pm ET by philarenewal
Edited 4/12/2006 1:05 pm ET by philarenewal
HA! It must be REAL slow!The point being: Designing a house requires an education - regardless of how it is acheived. Just because you live in a house doesn't mean you can design or build one successfully - no matter what the DIY shows portray.We all make mistakes - even in our field of expertise. Surgeons, rocket scientists and lawyers alike. This is where a checks and balances systems proves useful.I think we are (finally) saying the same thing - agreeing.Waddaya want to argue about next?...FThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
>>"Waddaya want to argue about next?...
Think I've already stolen the OP's thread too much so I'll hit the tavern to crank things up about Iran's nuke program. I have CNN on in the background. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Interesting information you posted about architects. I live in Kansas and I believe we have only one university in the entire state that offers an Architecture program (Kansas State University).I've wondered why more schools do not offer this type of training.I believe the school offers a separate program called landscape architecture and I've always thought that sounded interesting.^^^^^^
"The Older We Get, The Better We Were"
>>"I believe the school offers a separate program called landscape architecture and I've always thought that sounded interesting.
My little sister became a landscape archy, and she loved it. I think she was good at it too. She specialized in cemetaries, of all things. She doesn't do it any more though. The impression I got was she had a tough time making a decent living year in year out. She did some travelling, but how many new cemetaries really get built every year no matter how far you're willing to go? Maybe she would have stuck with it if she specialized in something else.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Cemetery architecture is a dying art.;)Seriously, it is not a great business. My wife is head of the local cemetery committees and I ama treasurer for one. More people live longer, When they die, more are cremated than in earl;ier generations, and of those cremains, fewer are intered, so the demand is down in that market.If anybody wants to rest forever on an island, I can make you a good deal on a lot!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
While K State might try to pretend that KU does not exist, KU does have a archy school.http://www.saud.ku.edu/gen/SAUD_generated_pages/Home_p2119.htmlAsk CAGIV about it and some of the professors.
Wow.....I stand corrected! Thank you for the info.^^^^^^
"The Older We Get, The Better We Were"
>>KU does have a archy school.
I stand corrected. Looks like the future is trending to a 5 year program instead of the past.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Hmmm, it looks like this thread got hijacked.
Thanks to all for your input, and links. A few clarifications:
1. Post #8: An example of not understanding - we dimensioned a building to 1/32nd's. Productivity on site must have dropped the day those drawings hit the site, considering the down time while the folks on site picked themselves up after rolling on the floor laughing. My intent was that there is a difference between the theory of something, and the application of it and knowing what is critical and what is not. Now I am interested more in the practice of things.
I do not recall asking for a price-list. I was hoping to get framework for thinking that would be appropriate for residential construction.
In any case, thanks for all the info.
2. Post #11: Yes, I am considering being the owner-builder. However this does not mean that this course is set - I could end up with a GC.
3. Post #17: I have attended a UBuild it seminar. Thing is, I don't need help getting forms, permits or financing and such like. I only need help on the construction aspects. I'll probably talk with them again when I am ready and see if they are interested in working on a sub-set of their full range service.
4. Post #32: Before designing the house, I'd like to have a good understanding of the systems. In other words, I'd think from the whole to the parts as well as parts to the whole. Hope that makes sense. If it is clear in my head, there will be minimal missed details.
5. Describing one self as an architect, and using the title "Architect" with a capital "A" are two different things. In some states, you have to be licensed to practice to do the latter.
I likely had a big part in the hijack.
Sorry.
As you hang around here more, you'll see that happens a lot.
Makes it interesting and keeps the brain cells firing. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I am fine with the hijacking. The observation was made with a smile on my face; in writing some times the nuances get lost.
architect, and using the title "Architect" with a capital "A" are two different things. In some states, you have to be licensed to practice to do the latter.
In Texas, it's illegal to do either. Does not stop it from happening; it's just illegal. Can't append "designer," either (technically). Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
called landscape architecture and I've always thought that sounded interesting
In real life, it can mean drawing lots of golf courses, and gazillions of 1% profit residential jobs. It can be tough school work, as most programs you wind up doing 80% of a botany and/or practical horticulture degree plan.
Most AHJ in Texas insist on a Licensed Irrigator to sign off; so you get to learn all about plumbing (and pay for yet another State Seal <sigh>).
Lanscaping work can often be a lot more rewarding than the design--but that might just be my experience with it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Four year college degree in NAAB accredited program meets the educational requirements in most states
NCARB wants 8 years university plus "interning" for licesnsing in all 50+DC. They acredit two degree plans, a 5 year Bachelor of Arch, or a 4+2 of a BS + Master of Arch. (The Master of Arch almost always is half again as long as any other M.S.)
Some States will accomodate other plans, and there are some "legacies" built into the system as NCARB has worked to get all of the ducks lined up in one sort of row or another.
Whether that is better or worse would warrant its own forum on some very fast servers with a phenominal amount of bandwidth to handle all the flames <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>>"NCARB wants 8 years university plus "interning" for licesnsing in all 50+DC. They acredit two degree plans, a 5 year Bachelor of Arch, or a 4+2 of a BS + Master of Arch. (The Master of Arch almost always is half again as long as any other M.S.)
Uh, no actually. NCARB uses NAAB standards which are 4 year program. They are upping it a bit (increased credit hour requirement that I'm assuming would get you to 5 years as a practical matter), but those changes won't take full effect for another 6 years.
Master of Arch is 5 years.
Where are you getting your numbers from?
Maybe you and I are comparing apples and oranges or something?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
The B Arch degree at NJIT is 5 years- the M Arch adds at least another two. And if you're considering getting a Bachelor's degree in something other than Arch and then getting an M Arch, plan on a 2+ year bridge program to get you up to speed.
Licensing here requires a B Arch- a Bachelor's of Arts in Architecture or a Bachelor's of Science in Architecture doesn't suffice.
Bob
Bob, again, no.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, 'cause every place I look, I get the same answer.
NJ requires a bachelors degree from an NAAB acreditted program. NJSA 45:3-5; NJAC 13:27-4.1. That school does not have to be in NJ.
NAAB requirements acredit architectural programs of four years. See their requirements. The accreditation is valid for a period of 6 years. See their latest bulletin. There are plenty of accredited 4 year programs. See the NAAB list.
Believe me, I am willing to be wrong. I am no expert in architectural licensure. But everything I look at in every state gives the same answer. NAAB accredited program. NAAB program requirements are 4 years. They will stay 4 years at the very least until reacredittation of every school which will take 6 more years.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
You're right- the school doesn't have to be in NJ- I didn't think I'd said that.
The NJ State Board also does defer to the NAAB accreditation, which is for B Arch and M Arch programs- therefore, a BS or BA in Architecture doesn't apply. I've yet to see a B Arch program that can be completed in 4 years (given that there are typically 10 consecutive studios that must be taken to get the B Arch), hence my statement regarding the 5-year program. If you can find a 4-year B Arch, more power to ya- but I haven't come across any (and I looked extensively when in high school- the thought of 5 years of school was far more painful than 4 years.....lol).
Bob
Where are you getting your numbers from?
Maybe you and I are comparing apples and oranges or something?
Could be.
NAAB accredits the college programs and sets up the model curricula to which they are to apply themselves. NCARB sets the legal standards for the licensing States to set for 100% reciprocity. So, Texas Board of Licensing & Registration refers back to one's NCARB-mandated requirements. Those are met by graduating from an NAAB-accredited school.
The "old" NCARB school "rule of thumb" was that a "professional degree" (whether Bachelor's or Master's) meant taking a certain volume & types of classes. These typically exceeded the the various States' minimum degree requirements for those degrees. In Texas, all the B.Arch's were 5 years to get the required 10 design classes in (and ran about 148-152 hours--State of Texas says a Bachelor's only requires 125 hours). So, there (used to be) were two "ways," either a "4+2" or a "5" year plan.
The M.Arch degree requires 4 design classes, and as they are 6-9 class-hours each, that mandates a bit more than the 35-6 hour/4 semester's work to earn an "ordinary" Master's degree.
The non-accredited 4 year degree up the road is running 140 hours, the M.Arch is 52 (grueling) hours, minimum. The other schools in the state all offer the 5 year "professional" B.Arch degree, typically 149-152 credit-hours in length.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Architects are smart, but it ain't rocket surgery. Non architects can't fairly be called laymen IMHO. It ain't medicine, it ain't law and it ain't priesthood."Tell that to an architect. Back when I was 18YO and considering it for a career, they all told me I was looking at fiove years in school and a minimum of two interning in an archy office before I could call myself one. Looking at seven years before starting to practice discouraged me from trying. NOW YOU TELL ME THAT IT CAN BE DONE IN FOUR YEARS!!!!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can call yourself one in four years.
You can call yourself a registered one in seven. ;-)
PS: got nothing against archys. This kinda started this am when I had my usual too much morning coffee and I read one of those posts along the lines of "you can't possibly do this without years and years of formal training etc., etc," even though lots of folks are very successful doing things without years and years of formal training, etc.
In reacting to that, I think I somehow got down on archys. Happens. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 4/12/2006 5:17 pm ET by philarenewal
Edited 4/12/2006 5:18 pm ET by philarenewal
LOL, The point you were trying to make was not lost on me. I came up through the hard way and spent thirty years instead of seven getting where I am. I do design/bu8ild and am careful to refrain from describing myself as an architect, but my customers still aften introduce me as such and I trhink my design work has the respect of some others in the area.There are many ways to knowledge, and many other ways to use it once gained.But the other point common to this thread is important too. A novice can s[pend more on his mistakes than he mighyt other wise spend on a good architect.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Alfie, are you going to be the owner-builder? In other words, are you planning to function as your own general contractor, and plan everything, do all the purchasing, subcontracting, etc.?
Have you considered places like Ubuildit, President Homes, or HomeWorx?
Some of them allow for totally custom plan options.
I think there is a well respected rep for Ubuildit that posts here.
These programs help the OwnerGC on many levels.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
alfie
get your plans together first , then shop bids.
if your going to general that means each trade. if not the builder will provide you a contract.divide by the sq ft,Lft what ever you like. Your back in school.
the fewer details left out the closer the cost will be calculated.
these are finish details ie. tile, doors, windows,lighting fixtures,bathroom fixtures, moldings,exterior finish,etc. most foundations, rough frames, plumbing rough in etc. are pretty basic and those trades are pretty competitive when it comes to bidding.
you eat it in the details not covered.
We love uncovered details, change orders and such $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That what I think and Im' sticking to it!
Mikey