There is a current post that is discussing framing and the plumbing of walls. Sometimes plumbing of walls is all in the the technic of how you actually do it and moreso how you maintain them throughout the construction. What is your method and how do you maintain plumb/straight walls until the framing is complete?
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retractable plumb bobs and lots of braces.....regards
braces, and they stay on til roof is sheathed.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
>> braces, and they stay on til roof is sheathed << Thank you for that!!! I've seen several DAes remove bracing to use as temp truss bracing while installing them (while they walk around on the wall top plates). Some people just can't connect the dots...
BTW - I like using DP's method for plumbing up walls. Some guys say they can eyeball them, (sight down 'em) and maybe Blue can, but personally I think stringlining walls is the most accurate. Average carpenters who are looking for +- 1/2" might be OK with the sight method - if that's the kind of stuff they want to build... Matt
Average carpenters who are looking for +- 1/2" might be OK with the sight method
Matt...that statement is ridiculous. A legally blind guy could sight a wall and see a 1/2" bow!
If sighting a wall is so hard, why would anyone go to all the trouble to nail up strings and braces, then rely on their eyes to double check the work?
If the eyes can detect poor work, then maybe that should be the starting method...not the double checking method.
I mentioned to Mike and I'll repeat it...I can teach EVERY raw rookie how to sight a wall straight in ten minutes (that's about two walls worth). I've never met anyone that couldn't do it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
mention all you want .. we'll still string & block and you use a block to check it with
it's framing 101 , doctor advanced degree..
i'm still stuck on framing 101..
when all the walls are up and i'm handing up joists.. all i have to do is look around and i know my guys have got it straight..
no string.. i know it ain't Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
when all the walls are up and i'm handing up joists.. all i have to do is look around and i know my guys have got it straight..
Framing 102 teaches guys to put the joists up without banging the walls apart. When they are putting them up in a sensible, sane controlled manner, nothing gets beat to heck. The double check at the end of the job for all walls being plumb usually smokes out any problems. I haven't had to tweak any walls in a long, long time.
Mike, I can see that the only advantage is having a visual stringline to "prove" that nothing has moved, but even if I decided that that feature was important, I wouldn't change my framing 101 lesson which is to learn how to use your sight and vision to make things straight. In my early days, I felt compelled to sight and straightn every wall, never delegating this important event to anyone. In my older days, I learned that when I taught the raw rookies the importance and techniques to straighten walls, the principles were easily applied to many, many other situations all over the rough frame arena.
You short circuit the learning curve of you crew by not allowing them to sight walls.
IF you don't use the same string method to sight every other area of the job like joist , plywood cuts, foundations, steel beams, etc, then how do they develop their eyes, which are the most important tool on your job?
I have a philosophy that I continually impress upon the men...."If it looks good, it is good.". Being a remodeling contractor, I think you would be one of the first to fully understand the implications of that simple statement.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
When I was doing production framing, we always Plumb & Lined by eye. Eye the plumb-stick, eye the wall. How would you check for the crown on your lumber if you couldn't trust your eye? I would always visually line up all verticals, subconsciously. You'd catch walls where studs were nailed on the wrong side of the layout lines on one plate! To this day my eye autmatically checks all vertical lines against each other.Your comment about joists made me chuckle. Brilliant man that I am I straightened out a twisted header with the joists that nailed into it, just the other day. Very tight fit. Couldn't figure out why the wall it was in went out of plumb (there goes that eye again). Duh, then I had to "shave" 3/16 off the end of a few joists while nailed in place. Love that sawzall! Remodeling my own new construction. Yeah!
To quote myself: >> Some guys say they can eyeball them, (sight down 'em) and maybe Blue can, but personally I think stringlining walls is the most accurate. << I knew I'd take some heat for that one (and the next) and I even knew where it would come from! :-) If you think about it, it was kind of a compliment. The intent of the "average carpenter" statement was simply to say that it depends on what tolerances that a crew is working to. Were the problems occur is on the really long walls. Still, my initial statement stands. Only I get to sight walls ;-) but that is only a cursory check to see who gets invited back to frame the next house :-). Seriously though, I really don't care what method is used by others, just so the outcome is acceptable.
BTW - on the cursory check on 2 stories I sight up the corners too. You can have everything plumb, but end up with first and story walls not in the same plane. Oh-oh - here comes more heat :-) Matt
Here's what we do and maybe some of you will add something to it to make our system even better.
First start with dead level corners. Then we nail a piece of scrap (usually 1X4) to the top plate on the inside of the wall, "on the flat". It sticks an inch or two above the top plate and has a nail sticking out to hook a string to. Then we run a super duper taut masons line from corner to corner hooked on the nails. Now we have a line that is an inch above the wall and 3/4" away from the wall to the inside of the house.
Next step is to double check that the bottom plate of the wall is securely nailed off and the wall is right on the snapped line. We then take 1X8X16' rough cut spruce boards and cut a kicker off one end. Then we nail the longer pieces to the top plate, push some tension into the board and nail the other end to the sub floor. The top plate should be about 1 1/2" away from the string at this point. We place spring boards (as we call 'em) roughly every 8' or so. Then we nail the kicker perpendicular to the spring boards to the sub floor. Buy pushing the kicker further into the spring board we suck the wall back into the house. By holding a scrap piece of 1X4 against the top plate we bring the wall in until it just kisses the string. When it does we drive a nail through the spring board into the kicker to secure it..
I double check along the whole wall with my Stabila plate level and then again by eye from a ladder along the top plate.
Maybe a bit redundant but it seems to be a good system that is working very well for us. I feel it's one of the most important steps of the wall framing process. Not just because plumb walls are correct walls, but dead on straight walls make the whole rest of the frame go as smoothly as possible.
And the Golden Rule of Framing is especially true at this stage..... Get it right now, cuz it's gonna be twice as hard and cost twice as much to try to fix it later.
nice.............you been looking over my shoulder?
Only thing I ever done different was putting the line on the outside. PIA to do and check.
Think it makes a difference? After all, you're building to the outside dimensions.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
eric.. we string to the inside.. and leave it in place until the 2d floor deck is on.. it's a visual to make sure nothing has moved..
also , it's faster to string the inside.. one guy on a saw horse or a step ladderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Think it makes a difference? After all, you're building to the outside dimensions."
That's a good point, Eric. Never thought about that before.
If you're deck is flat and level, and walls square when you sheet them, the corners have to be pretty danged close to plumb when you tie the exterior walls together. That being said, I plumb the corners, string the top plate for straight, then nail diagonals on any interior walls that intersect the exterior walls - with kicker type braces like diesel described (usually with 2x material though) where needed.
I like to recheck for straight just before framing the ceiling or roof and again right before sheathing...just never know.
One thing that really helps keep walls straight is using the straightest plate stock for the top plates and those not so straight for the bottom plate, which can be pulled to the line as needed and the begeebers nailed out of it.
One thing that really helps keep walls straight is using the straightest plate stock for the top plates
Or just make sure you use plate stock equally bowed, in the opposite direction, and toenail the edges flush before top-nailing the plates together.
I don't think it really matters Eric. Discrepencies in milling (that's what we're talking about here, right?) will occur on either side of the framing member. That's why I double check with the plate level. Besides, if my walls read plumb with a level, and all the pieces keep fitting correctly....
Or am I missing something......again...... ;)
dp.. i grew up with springing walls..
<<
Next step is to double check that the bottom plate of the wall is securely nailed off and the wall is right on the snapped line. We then take 1X8X16' rough cut spruce boards and cut a kicker off one end. Then we nail the longer pieces to the top plate, push some tension into the board and nail the other end to the sub floor. The top plate should be about 1 1/2" away from the string at this point. We place spring boards (as we call 'em) roughly every 8' or so. Then we nail the kicker perpendicular to the spring boards to the sub floor. Buy pushing the kicker further into the spring board we suck the wall back into the house. By holding a scrap piece of 1X4 against the top plate we bring the wall in until it just kisses the string. When it does we drive a nail through the spring board into the kicker to secure it..>>
we string & block too... but now we use a concrete form screw brace.. no more spring boards.. 5 times faster... the wood is reuseable.. infinite adjustment.. no slips
you gotta get some of these..
oh.. as for plumb.. strictly lasers now... we use a few 4' levels too.. but lasers are boss.. we can plumb a ridge from 16' belowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My "green-ness" is gonna show....
Don't know what a concrete form screw brace looks like, but I'm betting I've seen one before. Got a pic somewhere or a website where I might be able to find one. Will I be able to figure out how to apply it by looking at it?
I've got lasers.... but I always have a hard time seeing them in the daylight. Any solutions, or am I missing something? Also, how do you attach it to the wall? Or does it go on the floor and you somehow measure the standoff up high? Probably sound like crazy questions but I really never use my lazer while framing. In fact I still use a builder's level on my tripod more than a lazer!
Concrete form screw brace, aka turnbuckle:These are definitely the best thing going, particularly when you consider that they'll move an 8" thick 8' tall wall of concrete.
moose... thanks for the pics.. mine were cleaned out when i fried the hard drive
the 2d one you showed is the one we use.. i think we got them at Contractor's Supply in East Providence.. but any place that caters to heavy & highway contractors will have them..
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Those turnbuckles are $27 each at the local forming supply yard. Or they rent for a couple of bucks a month.
there is a bar system in the back of this months JLC. Dont have it here at home with me. They run about 26 a piece. anyone try those out yet
Ill get the name tomorrow
bedtime
Found these. I'm going to try them, cheaper than the a-27, we'll see if there is a good reason....
http://www.ellisok.com/ellisok/products_wallbrace_kickbrace.html
Are you using them for framing? Welcome to the forums, I think you'll find them very useful.Fill in your profile.
Perfect timing. I was just about to order a dozen of another screw-type brace, but I like the price of the ones made by Ellis. Hadn't heard of them before.
Thanks for the post, saved me $100.
Don
I have used a different brand of the same thing for concrete forms work. Makes lining the forms sooo much easier than just plane old stakes and 2x kickers.
One company I worked for owned a boat load of them. Another just rented them for the occasional forming job they got.
If you buy them, keep them clean, and oil them when you strip them off the forms. a little concrete and mud goes a long way toward ruining a wise purchase. The oil will reduce the number of hammer whacks they will get when they are stuck because of the mud and concrete on them.
Dave
Those do look like something I'd want to use for concrete work but I'd never be able to profitably make them work for framing a house. Maybe, in some very weird, extremely limited application, it might be handy to one or two of them on rare occasions but I really can't think of a situation at the moment.
The differnce between house framing and concrete is primarily because the concrete braces don't have any use after holding up the forms. They would have to be used and reused and eventually they are just trashed. In residential though, we re-use every single stick in a permanet manner and no lumber is lost because it was used as a brace.
Nothings faster than a simple stud in the hands of a skilled framer.
blue
Only place I ever used them was on concrete forms.
Can't imagine the wasted time they would cause in framing.
BTW, I was once called a "simple stud", but with age I'm just "simple" now <g>
dave
I picture using them instead of spring braces. http://www.ellisok.com/ellisok/products_wallbrace_kickbrace.html Nail one end to subfloor, one end to a stud, the other end of the stud to the top of the wall and straighten to my string. Leave them set up until it's off to the next job, then they brake down to a nice small size. The shorty kick brace, I sort of picture using to keep built up LVL beams plumb (especialy those deep ones). I'm less sure those will be useful, but what the heck, I'll try them, Plus it's more weight to keep the step van moving in the snow
bracing...
lots of it..
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