Anybody have some good advice about plumbing a timber-frame home? I am not doing the plumbing, just the design, it’s my own house. I haven’t asked a plumber for any assistance yet, haven’t decided who to hire. I am simply looking for some ideas and advice about running piping, and specifically venting, without having some really strange looking bump-outs on walls, or having to cut through a beam or something.
Basically, there’s two bathrooms on the second floor, two bathrooms on the first floor, and a laundry and mop sink in the basement. I may rough-in for a basement bathroom, but not sure yet. I have been trying to line things up as far as putting the second floor bathrooms over downstairs bathrooms (not very successful) or over closet or pantry space (better). The upstairs bathrooms seem to be easy to vent but hard to drain, and the reverse is true of the first floor bathrooms. Plumbing codes don’t seem to be of much help with regard to design issues, and the architect I asked didn’t have a clue. Is there some reason I can’t run vents on the other side of a room from the fixture, or any reason I can’t tie all the vents in a bathroom, or even the entire house, to one single roof vent? Also, how close to the foundation exit does the main stack vent have to be? Can it be on the other side of the house, with a straight run of pipe to the septic tank, as long as there’s no drains between the vent and the tank?
This is the only thing that’s keeping me awake at night, everything else seems to have worked itself out so far.
Thanks.
Replies
I'm building a timberframe myself so I've been where you are going..
Your solutions are where ever you want them.. for example in the center of my house where I have my bathrooms I was able to build tradional stick built bathrooms and simply put the plumbing in interior walls..
The kitchen that is off to the side of the great room I'll run my vent stack up behind a refrigerator put in the corner.. However once the vent gets above the second floor bridge I need to cross the room with it. What I've done there is a combination of hide and seek and trickery. Basically I hollowed out a timber and stuck the pipe in there. Since the timber acts like a diagonal brace it pretty much got to the side that I was willing to put it through the roof..
Remember to always keep your plumbing inside of your SIPs (depending on where you live, If you live down south where things never freeze than it's not real critical) regarding venting, remember to put the correct amount of slope in the vent pipe. You never want stagnant water to remain anyplace! Any vent can get water so just put slope in..
I spent a great deal of time thinking about the plumbing issues and felt that was one of the real weaknesses of Timberframing untill I spoke to a plumber (who later became my friend),... he told me that without proper planning and forethought any home could become a nightmare.. His classic tale of terror was a large (stickbuilt) house with plumbing going to just about every room. (the owner liked to have cool fresh water around him where he was) The bill for framing the house was cheaper than the plumbing bill..
According to Jim the trick is to sit down with a plumber and brainstorm everything before hand.. sit the with a scetch pad and ask him to helpyou figure things out.. In exchange you owe him both last look at the bid and consideration for the time he spent with you.. anotherwords if you take an afternoon of his time, you'd better give him the project evan if he's a couple of hundred dollars high in his quote..
Do not sit down with the plumber who asks what's timberframe! Do not ask a plumber who starts off shaking his head no.. You might ask a log home builder who he uses for plumbing..
More to come...
Mikita makes a tool called a groove cutter.. It has a variety of cutter heads in it and they can in minutes cut you a chase for plumbing.. Timberwolf tools in Maine has them..
(it's also a miricle maker for electrical work) If you need to you can also do the trick I was forced to use on a couple of occasions.. That is I used Milwaukee's self feeding wood boring bits and a home made extension. I got a chunk of steel bar stock and made a 10 foot long extension. It allowed me to hollow out timbers and put either plumbing or wiring thru them.. Timbers that were visible on all four sides so you couldn't hide it by turning the back side against something..
Don't forget you don't need to have exposed beam flooring for every room. In fact if you do over use exposed beam flooring it loses a lot of magic.
Don't forget you don't need to have exposed beam flooring for every room. In fact if you do over use exposed beam flooring it loses a lot of magic.
Good point, and one I've already considered. In the first floor closet and bathrooms, and in the kitchen pantry area, where I know I'll have plumbing upstairs, I designed the frame to use floor trusses (OpenJoist2000 by UFP) so that I can run piping and wiring horizontally in all directions without interference. The carrying beams are 12" deep, so I can use a 9-7/8" deep joist and still attach drywall and recessed can lights to the ceiling on the first floor. The next consideration will be figuring out where to put the false walls and/or plumbing chases. In one bathroom upstairs, we will have a laundry chute that goes straight to the basement. I'll plan on making it a bit larger to allow for wiring, plumbing and a vent stack.
Thanks for the advice.
Don't do this unless absolutely there is no other way, (or you just like to waste a lot of time)
If you should ever find the only solution to a pipe/wiring problem is to run it up the center of atimber, go right ahead.. You will not weaken the timber in any appricable fashion since the outside of the timber is the strength and the heartwood can cause the timber to check..
Get a Milwaukee self feeding bit much bigger than the size you'll need (I used a 2 9/16ths bit for a 1 1/4 pipe) Do not try to bore the hole in the horizontal position sooner or later the bit will walk out the bottom no matter what you do.. this must be done in the verticalposition.. if that means working out of a pit or up on scaffolding so be it!
If the timber is realitively short you can just buy Milwaukees extensions and go at it.. eventually they will become too expensive so what you do is take an extension and cut it in half and have a great, repeat GREAT! welder weld a thick piece of tubing over it. Make absolutely certain that it's a strong piece of tubing say 4130 and .250 wall thickness minimum. I used a length of skedule 80 pipe. Have the welder spend the time it takes to make absolutely certain that it's in the center and straight. A little wobble here is a major deal drilling a long hole..
Do not attempt to drill the hole thru in one shot.. drill an inch or two at most and stop back out the bit and clean out the chips.. if you don't you''ll quickly jam up the hole with chips and won't be able to get the bit in or out! Use a shop vac with a long pipe attached to it as you get further into the hole..
Using your eyeball make certain the hole is going straight as you can. Self feeding bits can and do wander a bit on really long holes so check that all the little teeth are sharpened at the same angle (Basically use a new one to start with)
beleive it or not you can slightly influeance the direction a bit goes just by forcing it that way from the top.. If the bit should happen to wander too far off center, try taking the larger bit out and putting a smaller bit in to start the hole off in a slightly diferant direction.
When you are finished a twenty foot long hole will look like a drunken sailor drilled it thus the need for a much larger hole than pipe..
I guess I didn't mean running the utilities up through the laundry chute itself. I'll make the chase for it somewhat larger and run the wiring and plumbing up beside the chute.
As for the holes in the timbers, I'll try to avoid that any way I can. I do plan on using a core box bit in my router to run wires along the top and outside of beams in order to install track lights and fans.
please unless you really like to work slow get/ rent/buy/ a groove cutter by Mikita..
A router is soooooo sloooowwww! compared to the groove cutter. I needed one wire chase put into a 6 foot long beam figured I could do it with my router since I'd lent the groove cutter to my brother-in-law. In the end I drove over to my brother-in-laws and waited while he finished his work. I still think I got it done faster than if I would have tried to do it with the router..
> a twenty foot long hole will look like a drunken sailor drilled it ...
Amazing, a 20 ft. hole. All drills wander to some extent. Doing a deep hole in a lathe, the way to get it right is to start with drills in the tailstock to make some room for a boring bar, then true it up with the boring bar. Your job could have been done on a really big lathe, the kind that were used to make guns for battleships.
-- J.S.
Gee, I wonder where I could find a lathe to make 16 inch cannons? Since the last time they were made in this country we were fighting WW2 I doubt there are too many around.. (not evan sure that the guns on battleships are 20 feet long, suppose I could do a search on the Missouri and find out..
Actually they're 47 ft. long -- the 16" caliber naval rifles on the Iowa class battleships. IIRC, the government owned the equipment that made them. They do wear out and get replaced, I heard that there's an old one on display in San Pedro.
Huge old lathes do come up in machinery auctions from time to time, and usually go very cheap, like for scrap prices. Now there's a business opportunity: Pick up an old 60" x 480" lathe and set up shop in some central location doing plumbing chases for timber framers....
-- J.S.
People encounter the same issue up here with log cabins. Almost universally, they stick frame a wet wall, 2x6 or better yet, 2x8 and have all the vents and drains in that. Accept that you are mixing two somewhat incompatible things here - a buliding style of 700 years ago and indoor plumbing. Be willing to locate the wetwall and bathrooms/kitchen accordingly.
A pet peeve of mine on log cabins - 7 light switchs in one 7-gang box! I realize wiring is tricky, like plumbing, and therefore gets consolidated in the middle. But there should never be more than 3 switch in one location. No one can remember and find in the dark, the fourth of seven switches. And if some of them are 3-ways. . . .
You've probably already been told this, but if not...What we typically recommend is for people to construct a 2x6 floor system over their timber floor system. This enables the beams to be left exposed but also creates a cavity for electrical, including recessed lights, plumbing, etc. As far as vents, we then run them up interior partition walls.
You've probably already been told this, but if not...What we typically recommend is for people to construct a 2x6 floor system over their timber floor system. This enables the beams to be left exposed but also creates a cavity for electrical, including recessed lights, plumbing, etc. As far as vents, we then run them up interior partition walls.
I am in awe. And somewhat shortsighted, apparently. I've never been told that, and that's a fantastic concept. I'm going to revise my plans immediately and incorporate a version of that into the plans. It will make everyone's life a bazillion times easier. Wow. Thanks!
I, too, am in awe of the 2x6 floor. I've done 10 frames and it never came up. It is amazing to think that 2x6's can do the job but it is clear that they can when run perp. to the framing.
Cudda made my life easier ten times over. Dang.
It is amazing how much conventional lumber we can add to a T.F.!
Rich
The hardest for most is the toilet drain. There are wall mounted ones that work, but it easier to plan the framing ahead of time.
Just locate the toilet with the bathroom joist perpedicular to the back wall of the toilet. Make sure there is no joist in the centerline of the toilet. The vent will be centered behind the tank (locate stud apropriately) coming off the top of the 3" drain, which can continue to another wall.
The lavatory is allowed to drain into the vent with a trap arm.