I’m at the stage where I don’t know enough to know how to ask, but here goes.
I’m in the process of buying a house (close next week) that has some problems identified by the structural pest inspection and a general home inspection. In particular,
1) There is an “active” leak in the laundry room, with extensive fungus damage to the floor, subfloor, and framing in the laundry room and adjacent kitchen. The pest company said the leak was in the drain. The home inspector didn’t specify drain or supply.
2) There is a large hole on the “up” side of the “main sweep” of one of the toilets. The home inspector said because of the location, it is not leaking waste water, but is a potential sewer gas issue. A plumber I had out for an estimate yesterday said it’s more than just a sewer gas problem.
3) The toilet in the other bathroom may not be vented at all.
That bathroom doesn’t look like anything in it was done correctly, and in the next year or so I want to completely redo it along with the kitchen and laundry room, but for now my concern is safety and sanitary issues and insurability.
There’s also about $5000 worth of electrical upgrading needed, including a service upgrade and knob and tube wiring with improper splices; some subterranean termite damage to the cripple walls and front porch framing; and earthquake retrofitting to do.
I’ve been getting individual estimates for electrical, foundation, plumbing, and had been hoping the foundation people could take care of the structural issues, too. But now it’s looking like a GC is going to be the way to go, if I can get one that can start in 2 weeks and finish in a month after starting.
I was satisfied with the first electrician’s explanation of what work needed to be done and what could be done; likewise for the foundation contractor. The plumber, however, left me with a bunch of unanswered questions. He said he could not tell if the laundry room leak was from the supply or the drain. Yet, it seems to me that if water is actively leaking when no water is running down the drain, then it is supply (the washer was not running while he was inspecting). In any case, he didn’t do any testing. There’s no sink or anything in there, BTW. The washer hose just sits in the end of an open drainpipe against the wall. For all I know, maybe the “leak” is just the drainpipe overflowing when the washer discharges.
Anyway, he said both supply and drain would maybe need to be replaced, and the wall would need to be opened. He also mentioned studs as well as joists were damaged, rotted away very badly.
Then, for the toilet sweep, he also said the tile wall in the bathroom would have to be opened. I asked about coming in through the outside wall, because I know previous plumbing work was accessed that way, and he said it would require moving the vent??? I don’t even know where the “main sweep” is — it’s not underneath the toilet? Can this all not be accessed through the crawl space?
Finally, the back toilet that may not be vented: the home inspector saw a vent on the baack wall of the house, but thought it might be for the sink, not the toilet. The plumber says the only way to tell is to open up the wall. And he says anything he opens, he doesn’t close up again — need to have someone else fix the wall twhen he’s done.
Bottom line, the plumber and the foundation contractor both recomended getting a GC, so that’s what I’ll be doing, but I also wanted to get a better idea of what kinds of issues are involved with plumbing leaks like this.
Thanks for any help, and sorry for the long post.
Rebeccah
Replies
I'd say you're going to have to figure on tearing out the walls in both bathrooms, and tearing out walls and floor in the laundry area. And there's also likely a lot of tear-up due to the electrical work. And then there's the termite damage. At this stage you might as well figure on a "remodel" job, vs just fix-up here and there. If the budget's tight, you can leave surfaces unfinished (eg, no tile) until later.
But it sounds like you should consider walking away from this house if the budget's tight. You have enough "issues" that I doubt that anyone can hold you to a purchase contract (though you could end up burning through some lawyer $$ getting out of it).
If budget isn't a real big issue, then do it right -- tear out everything that's questionable -- and then, if necessary to avoid budget pain, hold off on some of the final finishing, appliance upgrades, etc, for a year or two.
I doubt that the necessary repairs can be made in a month, especially in the current building climate where everyone (at least the good guys) is busy. Three months would be closer to reality, and even that wouldn't necessarily include retiling, replacing flooring, etc.
Stupid #*&^!%^?! browser. Lost everything when I went to preview.
Anyway, trying again. :)
Can't walk away from the deal, and if I could, I couldn't afford to buy another house around here -- prices just keep going up and up and up. When making the offer, I budgeted $15-20,000 for repairs, so I realize this isn't a "here and there" kind of fix-it job.
OTOH, I am not ready to do the full remodel yet, because I haven't even determined the scope, let alone designed or specified it. It will involve gutting kitchen, laundry room, and back bath, probably removing one or more nonbearing walls, adding a new closet to the adjacent master bedroom on a different wall, moving appliances significant distances, adding a venting hood to the range, new kitchen cabinets and counters, possibly (or not) new applicances, and deciding on finish materials. Enlarging the main bathroom is lower down on the priority list, and would be addressed if/when I add a second floor (vs repairing and finishing the garage as an art studio).
Obviously, I'd like to avoid duplication of work where possible, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. If I have to spend the full $12,000 that the structural pest company estimated for the structural work and medium grade vinyl flooring, and then tear up the flooring again when I do the full remodel, so be it. But I'm hoping to avoid that.
Anyway, I've now got a GC scheduled to come over on Monday, and another one on Thursday. I'll see what they have to say about the whole package.
You will doubless find that, once you start the repairs, one thing leads to another and the problem will be figuring out where to stop. The best thing you can do, in my opinion, is figure out which contractor you like, and have them figure out a scope of work in advance. They should be paid for this. I think it's a good idea because you can go into it with your eyes open, rather than running the project day by day until you're out of money and not done yet. On our current house, a foundation replacement has led to extensive reshingling, which has led to moving some windows and doors to more desired locations, which has led to extensive electrical and plumbing changes in the kitchen, which is pushing us into a kitchen remodel. It's like that with old houses, especially ones with rot issues, substandard wire, pipe, etc. I'm a contractor so I'm up for it, but a lot of folks aren't.
Yes, but I know me, and I'm a very slow decision maker. I'm also a micromanager by nature, and very uncomfortable with uncertainty. I agree with choosing a contractor I trust and working with the contractor on the design and specifications (and yes, with paying for this work). However, I have to have pretty thoroughly exhausted my *own* thoughts, first. I can't stand being rushed into making decisions, and there is work that needs to be done NOW, within 30-60 days of move-in, for my homeowner's insurance to insure the house.
After that will be 3-12 months of me living in the house; deciding what aspects of the kitchen as it is are livable and what aspects are not; taking precise measurements and playing around with my home architect software to see what will and will not fit, looking at different sight lines, and imagining actually living with different floor plans; researching here and elsewhere, different materials and techniques; and coming up with a very, very rough idea of order-of-magnitude costs for the different things I am considering.
THEN I hire someone to review with me my goals, budget, and implementation ideas, make recommendations, etc., and prioritize and schedule the work to be done. If I had a good relationship with the contractor who handled my emergency repairs, it might well be that contractor. And if he came up with ideas I hadn't even thought of, there would be that much more decision-making lead time; but it would be much less than if he worked with me from the unformed urge stage.
Believe me, you wouldn't wish me on your worst enemy in the contracting business, if I had a large project and hadn't thought it through first. I would be insupportable.
When I have thought something through, the contractor will either find me very easy to work with (because I know what I want, have realistic expectations, and want to get the details right ahead of time so there are no misunderstandings), or very difficult (because I am time consuming and not very tolerant of sloppiness in planning).
Rebeccah
When I have thought something through, the contractor will either find me very easy to work with (because I know what I want, have realistic expectations, and want to get the details right ahead of time so there are no misunderstandings),
Sounds perfect..maybe too perfect <G>
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
<G>
I've been in a similar but not identical situation once before -- I was going to build a custom house in central Illinois (twice as big and for less money than the one I'm buying here in the Bay area <sigh>, and exactly how *I* wanted it) about 5 years ago. I spent over a year designing on my own, then hired an architect who helped me refine the design over the following year, chose a contractor, and spent several months in meetings with him, planning and making decisions. Unfortunately, for reasons completely unrelated to the project, I ended up having to move out of state. We didn't yet have a contract at that point, so I just asked him how much I owed him for the time and lost opportunity of working with me. He thought about it, came back to me with a figure of $1000, and I paid it. At the time I had hoped he would say less, but now I think he gave me a good deal.
IOW, my approach is not really perfect, from the contractor's point of view. The longer the project spends in planning, with no money laid out, the greater the risk of the whole thing not getting done at all. :(
Here things are a bit different, in that I do have work that *will* get done, even if I get fired tomorrow. But for the rest, there needs to be a coherent plan before I proceed.
Rebeccah
yeah, the ol 'best laid plans'..
I bought a 175 yr. old log house with an unfinished addition..this was in Dec. 2003..had to move in by Apr. 2004..all plans got changed DAILY as I found more and more "issues" to address.
Bright side is that actually having made it tolerable enough to live in..now I see why I ought to be thankful my "plans" got sidetracked..things like a extreme amount of solar gain from the west in the early eve. even with the trees in full show..glad the french door got put on hold, it would fry us out.
Best of luck making it safe, so that you can make it a home that you cherish..
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I'm in the process of buying a house (close next week)
but for now my concern is safety and sanitary issues and insurability.
Can't walk away from the deal, and if I could, I couldn't afford to buy another house around here -- prices just keep going up and up and up. When making the offer, I budgeted $15-20,000 for repairs, so I realize this isn't a "here and there" kind of fix-it job.
OTOH, I am not ready to do the full remodel yet
Yes, but I know me, and I'm a very slow decision maker. I'm also a micromanager by nature, and very uncomfortable with uncertainty.
there is work that needs to be done NOW, within 30-60 days of move-in, for my homeowner's insurance to insure the house.
After that will be 3-12 months of me living in the house;
THEN I hire someone to review with me my goals, budget, and implementation ideas, make recommendations, etc., and prioritize and schedule the work to be done.
Rebeccah,
Have I got the salient points down here?
If so, get your emergency repairs made as cheap and as fast as can be done doing as little as needed for insurance. Get your ins agent involved in the planning at this (repair) stage. Save your money, worry, and decisions for your dream.
SamT
Bingo.
Emergency work only for now, remodel later, spend as little as possible now, but realize it's going to be a significant amount.
Which comes back to me wondering if they couldn't access the toilet sweep from below, and then not have to deal with opening the wall.
But I don't really know much about the typical "anatomy" of toilet plumbing. The toilet is on an outside wall, and is in the corner of the bathroom with little clearance to the wall at its side (or to anywhere else, either; it's a small bathroom). There's a chase right next to the toilet, which I presume is where the vent is. It sounded like the plumber was saying he would have to open the wall of the chase. So maybe the pipe that has the hole in it extends up into the chase? Boy, that sucks. What is a "main sweep", anyway?
Well, gotta do what I've gotta do.
In reviewing Sam's summary, I can't help but ask, "Why are you doing this to yourself?"
You've described a money pit. And you've described yourself as adverse to uncertainty. From extensive experience, I cannot imagine any other event causing more uncertainty that what you propose to get yourself into.
And financially, this will probably cripple you for years. If you believe your only options are to buy this POS at this "cheap" price and repair it into profitability with your admitted lack of experience, I question your advisors.
If you capitialize the future repair and remodeling costs (which will be somewhere between two to three times your estimates) into today's present value dollars, I believe you'll be much further ahead walking away from this deal and buying something else more compatible with your personality and abilities. Rent if necessary until you get the proper down payment.
Psychologically, this can overwhelm someone without the time, patience, and understanding of the process. That can manifest itself in your day job (risking the income stream necessary to support the project) as well as other relationships. Your time deadlines sound unreasonable. The inability to meet such deadlines commonly results in unnecessary hostility and costs when one attempts to transfer these avoidable problems unto someone else. I mean, "why should your trim carp or plumber bear the brunt of your ill-advised decision to purchase this questionable building?"
Please don't take this as nasty criticism. I've been there, done that. I've paid dearly.
And the theory that real estate prices have nowhere to go but up isn't always true. Look at all of the overbuilding going on. And as a certified financial planner, my experience shows the best investments are commonly bought when everyone is selling, not when it's a race to buy.
As I said, "Why are you doing this to yourself?"
Do you have money to burn? Time to waste? A sense of responsibilty to redistribute your wealth unto others? A lot of favors to call in from friends in the construction industry?
What could possibly be found in this deal that will be worth the costs?
Man. that is good food for thought..
but, always a but..we all dream, or need a dream..and dreams do come true..they do.
great post
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You're right. The dream is important and what does drive us. And I certainly don't wish to dash Rebeccah's dream. I just wish to have her reconsider the scenerio in which she plays out her dream.
Sometimes an alternate path is easier in achieving or exceeding one's dream.
Anyway, I wish her the best.
Definitely food for thought.
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You've described a money pit.
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Quite possibly.
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If you believe your only options are to buy this POS at this "cheap" price and repair it into profitability with your admitted lack of experience, I question your advisors.
</quote>
It was not my only option at the time I made the offer. My other options included
1) Buy in a crappier neighborhood that is farther from public transportation and full of violence and drug dealers
2) Buy in a suburb that is a 2-hour commute from work
3) Buy a house that is no bigger than my current apartment
4) Continue renting
However, the decision has been made, the offer is made and accepted, the contingincies removed, and closing is a week away.
<quote>
If you capitialize the future repair and remodeling costs (which will be somewhere between two to three times your estimates) into today's present value dollars, I believe you'll be much further ahead walking away from this deal and buying something else more compatible with your personality and abilities. Rent if necessary until you get the proper down payment.
</quote>
1) Walking away is not an option at this point.
2) I don't have any estimate on *future* remodeling costs. It is entirely possible that the kitchen remodel won't happen, or that what I do ends up being significantly less in scope than my dream. *That's why I don't want to start it now*. A second floor or garage remodel is completely pie in the sky, at this point.
3) My personality and abilities extend to other areas besides the work that needs to be done to repair and remodel the house. These have also been factored into the selection of the house.
4) I *have* a proper down payment. I have a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage at 5.845%, and am able to make a 20% downpayment and pay for $20,000 in repairs with cash, now. I can make the mortgage payments by decreasing my 401(K) contribution slightly and decreasing my income tax withholding, taking advantage of the home mortgage interest deduction. I am not going to be struggling to make the basic payments to keep the house.
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Psychologically, this can overwhelm someone without the time, patience, and understanding of the process. That can manifest itself in your day job (risking the income stream necessary to support the project) as well as other relationships.
</quote>
All good points. I hope that I am able to manage them.
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Your time deadlines sound unreasonable. The inability to meet such deadlines commonly results in unnecessary hostility and costs when one attempts to transfer these avoidable problems unto someone else. </quote>
If my deadlines are unreasonable, I certainly hope that the contractors I have out to look at the actual work to be done will tell me so (I will specifically ask). After what you all have said here, I realize that this is a probability and am adjusting my expectations accordingly. Note: It's part of why I posted here.
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Please don't take this as nasty criticism. I've been there, done that. I've paid dearly.
</quote>
I take this in the spirit in which it is offered.
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And the theory that real estate prices have nowhere to go but up isn't always true.
</quote>
Yeah, I know. I really wish all this was happening when housing prices were lower and interest rates higher.
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As I said, "Why are you doing this to yourself?"
</quote>
The reasons are many, and personal. But the decision to buy has been made.
The question now is how to minimize my uncertainty and control costs at the stage of emergency repairs.
Thanks,
Rebeccah
Stone-
I wish someone had given me this same advice before buying my current fixer-upper last year. Living in the moneypit and living with uncertainty is the most stressful situation a girl can find herself in. The silver lining is all this worrying is keeping me thin! And we lack plumbing problems, leaks, and the HVAC systems are new. Foundation is stable, already fixed. However, it is still a fixer-upper in many respects and we will never break even, I am sure. Our strategy now is to make ourselves comfortable and hold it. Time in this area will eventually level things out.
BTW: I laughed when I read about the responsibility of redistributing wealth to our contractors- I am putting his kids through college!
Carol
I'll repeat that I don't think you're going to get that work done in 30 days. At best you can live in part of the house while the rest is being destructed.
What the others said about a good GC is dead on. With this situation you need a GC you can trust and who will tend to a lot of messy details. Good luck finding one on short notice -- but asking friends and coworkers is probably the best way to go at this point.
Even though time is tight, be sure to get a few customer references from the GC and FOLLOW THEM UP.
OK, thanks.
I'll keep my fingers crossed. It definitely seems GC is the way to go rather than individual subs.
Rebeccah
FWIW, I had an electrical overhaul done before we moved in. It cost about $1500 to consolidate 2 fuse boxes and 5 sub-boxes (duplex to single family conversion) into a new 200A panel on the other side of the house, with a new meter main box outside and a relocated service feed inside. That was a 9hr day for a master electrician and an apprentice at $52 and $32 per hour respectively, and they had a 100% markup on the materials they used. I had them back for a second day in which they re-did the K&T ceiling light wiring in the basement and added a dozen outlets to rooms on the first and second floors. That day ran about $900.
Did they estimate that the job would be $5000 or did they make a bid of $5000. I found that the other electricians who bid the job as a whole were way higher than the guys who estimated the job but then billed hourly. That was also true with plumbers. I assume that they bid based on their expected hourly rate and a worst case scenario. If the job turns out to be easier, then they effectively double their wages. With large jobs, and complex "old work" jobs, it gets easy to lose track of how much you are actually paying for a service.
My wife and I budgetted $3000 max for electrical, and then we prioritized where we wanted new outlets and let them go to work. In one case, a particular outlet cost $175, but its twin on the other side of the house cost $10 so it all averages out.
I'd also suggest asking your friends who have had work done. That way you have a direct reference to how well a person's estimate actually matches up to the work they did.
It was an estimate, not a bid, and it was about $4500 (which I rounded up to $5000). It includes upgrading the service from 50A to 200A, correcting a bunch of improperly done splices and incorrectly wired receptacles, putting the sump pump on its own circuit, and putting a 70A panel in the garage with a 220V 50A circuit for a kiln.
He was estimating based on a fixed price per receptacle/splice to be repaired, and I think he left himself a lot of margin for error, and included a certain number of receptacles per room since, with the sellers' belongings still there it's a little hard to see where the existing ones are. I'm getting another electician in on Monday for another estimate.
What I end up actually having done will depend on the costs of everything.