Hello all,
An architect looking at a small remodel of a room between my house and garage is suggesting a pocket door between the new room and the garage. I’m going to lose some room in the garage (because of the landing that will be needed to reach the new door, and I appreciate him trying to save space, but I live in the northeast and it seems like a bad idea to me (the garage gets pretty cold). Has anybody out there used this as a solution? Are there fire safety issues I’m not taking into account?
Thanks for the help.
Rufus
Replies
I don't see how a pocket door would be sealed to prevent obnoxious fumes or to slow down a fire.
Is this a real architect or a begginning designer?
blue
Rufus,
A door into your garage not only should be well insulated, it must also have a fire rating which is going to be next to impossible if not impossible with standard residential construction practices and materials. There is such a thing as a sliding fire door for commercial applications but I've never seen one used in residential. You may want to rethink working with this guy.
k
Edited 6/13/2006 10:12 pm ET by kcoyner
there is no way that would pass code here, sounds like the guy just found out about pocket doors and wants to see what one looks like.Totally goofy!!!
well it would pass code here if it was fire rated to 1hr and self closing... two things that you will not find in any off the shelf door... I know a door shop that could make one but it would be BIG $$$... stick with a swing door and ask your archie what he was thinking of... better yet ask for a spec so that you can get a price... that ought to be some fun.
james
sounds expensive
cant believe an archi came up with that one, unless he knows you have bottomless pockets
Many residential codes require doors from living spaces to garages to have closers, while not impossible, it would be very complicated and costly to achieve on a pocket door. Never mind the issues regarding fire-rating, weather-sealing, etc. Tell him to learn the code before designing for others.
There is no way that will pass code. You need at least a door that is weather sealed and fire rated, I have never even heard of this in a residential grade pocket door.
Idea sounds like a fight with the BI that you will lose and cost you in delayed project, new door and labor and a non-pass on at least one inspection.
Anybody out there know off the top of their head what section of the IRC this is in, so he can show the archie?
Day
http://www.asidoors.com/cleanseal/245.asp
Not a pocket door and not residential, but fire rated and more energy efficient than a pocket door.
Do a Google for fire rated sliding doors and check out your possible choices.
We use similar doors on one of our power plants. Not pretty, but they have taken a lot of abuse over the past 6-7 years and still work properly. Manual versions only. The automatic are a maintenance nightmare in such a hostile environment.
Dave
Hello again,
Thanks guys for confirming that what I thought was a bad idea, was definitely a bad idea. The architect is actually a contractor with a degree in architecture that does a lot of work around here, but now I am feeling a little unsettled with his plans. Time to get some second opinions on the whole project I guess.
Rufus
The architect is actually a contractor with a degree in architecture
The degree does not mean squat if he does not have any practical experience working in an architects office, and dealing with pesky little details like fire codes etc.
Round here you need two years experience (working for an architect, not contracting) to go w/ that degree (bachelors) before going for a license.
I would double check everything he drew.
The architect is actually a contractor with a degree in architecture
Well, there are degrees and there are degrees. The laws vary from state to state, so, he could be in violation of "practice" laws (whether he means to or not).
Now, back in your original post, you said "landing" because you were concerned about taking space from the garage. If there's a landing, there's almost always room for a swinging door. Not always a great door, or a good door opening, but room.
Oh, and there's often no rule or regulation on how big the door to the garage has to be. Sure, I want to always use/specify a 3-0, but you could "get away with" a 2-6 door, if that helps the swing/landing geometry.
Might as well have a sliding barn door as a pocket door opening into a garage. Might could seal a barn door halfway, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
In our area, if there are more than 3 steps down from the house to the garage floor, a landing has to be provided...min 3x4 ft....door has to be self closing and fire rated. But I also believe the door has to swing in to the house, not out.
But I also believe the door has to swing in to the house, not out.
Now, that's something that seems to vary with culture--where not made into Code.
In the Orient, most residential doors open out, not in. In Japan, almost all of them have closers, too. This can be startling if you are not expecting the door to come towards you (or for it to stay open while you haul things in, for that matter.
Now, here in North America, as a practical matter, having the doors swing in means the hinge pins are on the inside, away from the nefarious a bit. Now, between an attached garage and the house, an out swing would seem like it might seal better (or easier), but that's me being logical. Local practices & codes vary, not necessarily attached to logic.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Same security issues apply to door to garage. The easiest door to break into a house is the overhead garage door.
Also, here in US, if ext doors swung out, how would the screen doors work?
Same security issues apply to door to garage. The easiest door to break into a house is the overhead garage door.
Yes, and no. Sure, with some mayhem, the hoodlums can get to the house door, but then, they'd have to be smarter than the average theif to pull hinge pins. Get some to the captured ball-bearing hinge butts, and pin removal is no longer an issue.
Also, here in US, if ext doors swung out, how would the screen doors work?
That's easy, they'd be on the inside <g>. (Just like the insect screens on casement windows, just less handy <g> . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Living in snow country, if your doors swung out, there would be quite a few days that you couldn't leave the house....
Well guys, I've got some different opinions here.
Since I moved to florida, I have actually seen more than one exterior pocket door. Sadly I didn't inspect them closely enough to determine whether they were some sort of actual pocket door designed for exterior application, or just a sliding patio door recessed into a wall. Nevertheless, it is possible to get a pocket door that will seal out the elements. Don't ask me about the self closing part. I don't have all the answers ya know.
Also, regarding exterior doors swinging in or out. Many of the new houses that are being built down here are using out-swinging doors. They are considerably more resistant to severe winds, and there really isn't any need for a storm door down here in paradise.
I think it's awfully funny how spooked everyone down here has become regarding hurricanes, but then again, the end result is the houses really are being built much better than they were just a few years ago. This is a big difference from the rest of the country where they just keep getting cheaper and more rinky dink every year. Don't get me wrong, people are still finding plenty of corners to cut, but the basic structures really are being quite over engineered these days." If I were a carpenter"
--- Since I moved to florida, I have actually seen more than one exterior pocket door. Sadly I didn't inspect them closely enough to determine whether they were some sort of actual pocket door designed for exterior application, or just a sliding patio door recessed into a wall. Nevertheless, it is possible to get a pocket door that will seal out the elements. Don't ask me about the self closing part. I don't have all the answers ya know. ---I don't think the issue was sealing out "the elements", but sealing against fire (this is a garage firewall application), which requires some sort of certification.Rebeccah
I'm curious, what locale are we talking about regarding the residential fire door requirements?
I don't mean to sound ignorant, I'm in the architectural door business in Texas, and we are a licensed Warnock-Hersey labeling shop. We are only commercial--no residential. We have no residential fire door requirements here or anywhere else in the south--that I know of.
Thanks."Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Certainly in Minnesota the common wall between garage and house must be fire rated, and the door must be fire rated as well. I don't recall offhand what the required ratings are (and they've changed over the years), but I've never seen a garage/house door in a recent (after 1970 or so) home that wasn't steel (with no lites).
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Hey doorman, how's kinky doing in the polls? are they just treating him as a joke? Or has he managed to become a viable contender? I keep thinking about how Jesse Ventura turned out to be an excellent governor, so why not Kinky? and besides, we need more people with a sense of humor in office!" If I were a carpenter"
1/2" sheetrock = no fire rating.
1 3/8" door = no fire rating.
No door closer = no fire rating.
It does no good to have a 20 minute fire-rated door if the wall is not a one-hour wall, or the frame is wood. My point is--if ANY component, be it hardware, frame, door, wall, weatherstripping, threshold, lite-kit is not fire rated, then the entire unit is not fire rated. As a reminder, my field is COMMERCIAL and not residential, but I would assume that the fire/life safety procedures are at least similar.To Mark,
Kinky's campaign manager just happens to be Jessie's campaign manager.
He just turned in the petition with enough signatures to get his name on the ballot for this fall. He's a viable third candidate in the polls.
Incidentally, at a recent tour stop in Texas, your boy Buffet contributed a SIZEABLE sum to the Kinky campaign and in turn asked for Port Aransas if Kinky wins. Kinky declined Jimmy Port Aransas, but DID offer to give him Dallas."Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
To Mark,Kinky's campaign manager just happens to be Jessie's campaign manager.He just turned in the petition with enough signatures to get his name on the ballot for this fall. He's a viable third candidate in the polls.Incidentally, at a recent tour stop in Texas, your boy Buffet contributed a SIZEABLE sum to the Kinky campaign and in turn asked for Port Aransas if Kinky wins. Kinky declined Jimmy Port Aransas, but DID offer to give him Dallas.
LOL
I don't know if I'm going to live here long enough to vote in the fall election but if not I'm going to see if I can get an early, early voters ballot!
This may make the whole election a fun event for a change.
Back to the subject at hand, I don't know where you are but down here in San Marcos I don't think they have a code on doors to garages. Mine is a interior door, 1 3/8", no curb, and 1/2" rock on the garage side! The house was built in the 70's so maybe that's part of it.
Doug
Edited 6/22/2006 4:22 pm ET by DougU
Doug,
This post was started from somewhere far away from San Marcos, where fire safety IS a concern in residential building. Here in Texas, it's not yet. They may be on the horizon, but they're not here yet.
By the way, how's the Guadalupe running this time of year? My son was just floatin' it earlier today. Maybe you saw him. He was the one with the cowboy hat on his head and the Pearl Beer in his ice chest."Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Maybe you saw him. He was the one with the cowboy hat on his head and the Pearl Beer in his ice chest.
Yea I think the cops had some guy like that up against the squad car as I drove by! :)
I'm to old to be hanging out down at the river, the drive by is about all I can take!
I found it interesting that with all the slab home that there isn't a curb between the garage and the house. I think that's a requirement where I came from.
I do trim/cabinet work so codes are something I pay little attention to, I find some of it interesting at times though.
Oh, I got a free meal out of the Heat/Mav's playoffs, sorry!
Doug
Doorboy:
Here in Mass, where I am, the residential code talks about "change of use". Going from vehicle storage to a living space requires a fire wall and a rated door. I can't speak for where you are but I believe that many states use that same standard.
BILL
The 2000 IRC requires min of 1 3/8" solid wood door, steel door, or 20 min rated door.It also requires 1/2" DW on the garage side.PERIOD!
Bill,I believe you about the 2000 IRC. I remember an earlier requirement for 5/8" drywall and a 1-3/4" door. Do you know when the standard was lowered? Thanks.Bill
Well there are different codes and probably more important local admentments.I beleive that it is very common to require 5/8's and also in some areas for a selfcloser on the door.I just read a thread on JLC forum that indicated that the "general" building codes where more stringent, but when they came out with a 1&2 family code that it was realized that they did not need to be that stringnet.
Bill,Isn't it 5/8 Type X or is that just local here in LA, CA?
Here it is a 20 minute door, Self closing, fully weather stripped and 5/8 drywall on the walls common to the house.
That is not what the 2000 IRC calls out.But as I mentioned a lot of local codes require more.
We start with the CBC which is based on the UBC.
Mark,You wrote, " Many of the new houses that are being built down here are using out-swinging doors. They are considerably more resistant to severe winds..."I reason that you mean they can withstand higher wind pressures when shut, as during a hurricane. Outswinging doors are very dangerous to open in a windstorm, as they tend to get torn right off the hinges and go flying like a playing card expertly thrown.Don't hurricanes exert pulling as well as pushing forces on homes? Can't a door be sucked out of its jamb as well as blown in? It seems like the real solution to resisting hurricanes is multi-point locking hardware.Bill
Bill, I am no engineer, nor am I a meteorologist, I know next to nothing about the directional forces exhibited by a hurricane. so I cannot answer your points. All I know is that many builders are using outward swinging doors, and when I inquired, (because it seemed counterintuitive to me) I was told it was due to their superior wind restance for hurricanes.
I guess the ultimate answer is, if mother nature decides to come at ya, no amount of planning or preperation on your part is gonna stop her. After all, The titanic was s'posed to be unsinkable, wasn't it?" If I were a carpenter"
Self closing...how about a weight a pulley and a rope..that ought to work. The plans approved last week called for a 20 minute door between garage and living quarters.
Atrident,
Your pulley idea is certainly effective as "self-closing." However, it would have to be tested, passed, and approved by a certified testing lab such as Underwriters or Warnock-Hersey for use in a fire rated door assembly.
Also, any fire rated door needs to be "self-latching" in addition to "self-closing" That means you cannot use a deadlock without an approved latchset. It also means that you cannot prop the door open at any time by any means."Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Door needs to have a rating and self closing device.
Would never pass code. Has to be a fire door. A contractor would be duty bound to refuse it on grounds of liability
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