Getting ready to do a 30′ x 30′ pole barn for a client . Uprites for center bay will be 12′ and side bays 8′ – 6″ x6″‘s. Been going back and forth about either setting the post in holes; bracing and pouring concrete around them or digging holes ‘ setting in sonotubes and using post support brackets. I believe theres pros n cons for each.
Some people may say setting post in concrete sets them up for potential rot but ive seen stuff ive built 20 years ago still fine.
Setting on piers might be easier to lay out and set and also get full useable length outta 6 x6 but they can also be knocked off their base by equipment and such.
Any opinions ; tips or expierences? Thanks.
Replies
30 years ago I believed it best to embed the post in the ground surrounded by packed native soil. At some point later it seemed the best choice was anchor embeded in concrete with the post above grade. These days I think either method might be the best for a given situation. Hereabouts I would be reluctant to ever surround a post with concrete.
I don't know what your design is, but note that a "true" pole barn relies on the fact that the poles are embedded in the ground for lateral bracing. Using pole barn techniques while perching the poles above-ground on concrete bases will not produce a rigid structure.
here the poles are embedded with gravel....
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The ones i have done i dug a hole with my hoe , threw in a 18 x 18 patio stone
Then nailed a pt 2x4 accross the lower end to stop uplift , then backfilled using soil i had taken out & packed with bucket while helper held post plumb
I even did a few over 100' long & 14' to the trusses x 40' wide
Leveled interior using a articulated grader
pole barn construction relies on burying the post forpartof the bracing
so.. if i were building yours i'd order all 4x6 PT, treated to .60 retention
then i'd dig or auger our holes to code frost depth and about 12" dia.
pour and level a footing in the BOTTOM of the hole...with a nice smooth tamped level top to the footing
next day i'd set and brace our poles aget them into exact alignment by scootching them on top of the footing
when they are in perfect alignment, i'd backfill with gravel and compact the gravel with a bar
for your 8' poles i'd use a 12'
and your longer poles i'd use a 16'.... trim the tops afterwards
pour and level a footing in the BOTTOM of the hole...with a nice smooth tamped level top to the footing
I did mine by tamping in about 6" of road base to support and drain the bottom of the post. This is simpler, quicker, and (maybe) drains better.
Backfilled with road base.
FWIW, you can make a really sweet tamper if you have a way to melt and pour lead.
Cut a piece of 3" metal pipe (cast iron is best, but steel is fine) about 6" long; use a piece of 1" EMT for the handle; set the 3" pipe upright on something fireproof and have a helper steady the handle inside the 3" piece as you pour the lead in to fill the 3" piece. It will cool in a minute or 2. Support the handle so it's held up about 1" from the bottom.
With cast iron, you smack it with a hammer after the lead is set, and it will shatter, leaving the lead tamping head. With steel, you just leave it in place.
The solid lead head is nice for use as a soft-blow maul for other purposes besides tamping fill.
Caution: be certain there's no water in the assembly before pouring the lead, and wear safety glasses and long sleeves.
What size gravel nuggets do you use? Or doesn't that really matter that much? Im thinking that smaller would be better, but not sure.
Has anyone ever tried using rock dust? Or is that going to hold the moisture?
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
before we start a pole barn...our excavator sub scrapes the loam off the site....
then he installs a pad of about 18" of bank run gravel ( coarse sand with rocks and small boulders )
we dig our holes thru the pad aND BACKFILL with the pad materialMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If the poles are out of the weather and the bases won't be subject to rain, then does the objection of concrete go away? If they will be exposed to horse/cow #### then that's probably worse than rain water.
Ive sometimes made a halo at bottom of post by nailing some old crunched up fence wire to bottom and pouring in a little cement and then tamped the rest of the hole with crusher run gravel.
We recently dug up a fence line of 4x4 PT's set in concrete 20 years ago and when u knocked off the cement they were just like new.
My biggest fear with these yellow pine PT 6x6's is setting one and then have it turn into a banana! Had to replace one holding up a finished deck and wasnt much fun no matter how hard u inspect them going in.
google perma column
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
While I like and have used perma columns, the connection between the wood post and the plastic "saddle" ends up being at or just above grade so you still don't have the bracing effect that you would if the posts extended below grade.
Not sure we're talking about the same thing.
Q. How is the steel "U" bracket attached to the concrete? A. There are four strands of 1/2" or 5/8" (depending on the model) of weld-grade rebar, robotically welded to the steel "U" bracket running the entire length of the concrete pre-cast.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
You're absolutely right. Sorry, I was thinking of the product named redifooting, but I have looked at permacolumn website and it seems like the best way to build a more permanent pole building.
what's a "more permanent pole building"
define "permanent"
.60 retention poles are pretty permanentMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Follow Mike Smiths way.....I've been doing them that way for 25 years, and the method is easy, gives a good foundation for the pole, allows for adjustment, and will drain water from the pole if groundwater tends to reach the poles.
My only add is to use laminated poles..... .60 on the lower 4' and the rest is rated above grade..they stay straight, don't wrap around on you and are generally easier to work with....most 84 lumbers carry them. Keith C.
My only add is to use laminated poles..... .60 on the lower 4' and the rest is rated above grade..they stay straight, don't wrap around on you and are generally easier to work with....most 84 lumbers carry them. Keith C.
We do it exactly as Mike does...but use the laminated poles as you suggested. I don't think I've seen a pole barn in the last 15 years or so that had regular 2x6s installed. Around here, it's all laminated.
I helped on a pole framed fire hall awhile back. AFAIK it was built under state spec for occupiable pole structures. Treatment was to scrape loam off soil and replace with crushed concrete base. Then 24" diameter holes were augured to 72" depth. 12" compacted stone added to hole. 12" concrete poured in hole. Three days later, 8x8 posts (.60 treated CCA) were set in holes and plumbed and held together by stacked PT 2x12's (rat wall) inside and out; one below grade the other above. Next day concrete poured to grade around posts and rat wall filled to rim. I wasn't GC on that project so I only know what I saw and did. I can tell you that it was much more expensive than other pole structures I have worked on. I can also tell you that 6 years after building that project it nearly got hit by a tornado...one passed within 500ft of the building, totaling out several nearby homes. The firehall didn't have a scratch. DCedited to add:
I just remembered that we drilled holes and ran 4 perpendicular pieces of 1/2" rebar through the ends of the posts prior to setting them in the holes.
Edited 7/2/2009 8:27 am ET by Dreamcatcher