I will try and explain the problem without going through the whole year long process. Here is the situation.
New home that closed December 2004.
Shortly after the homeowner moved in they noticed that if you turned on any ceiling fan in the house the tv would have a poltergeist like white noise would flash on the screen. Many electricians and low voltage tech guys have tried various solutions all with no luck. I have not been involved in every attempt to solve the problem because our warranty department is handling it. I have however tried to keep up with what is going on since I did build the house. I am aware of just about everything that has been tried so if anyone has any questions I should be able to answer.
The facts are.
This happens even if the cable is disconected.
It happens on all TV’s in the house.
It does not happen if the TV is swithced to AUX or VCR(So I believe it is picking up some signal through the receiver).
It happens if the TV is plugged into an extension cord from another house.
Today we had a lamp pluged into an outlet in the family room and when we flipped the fan switch the lamp would emit a pulse of light, the lamp switch was off, so it appears that electricty is being fed back through the ground or neutral.
I tried flipping every breaker in the house one at a time and the problem persisted.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Replies
Replace the fan.
It is every fan in the house including the bathroom fans and the cooktop fan.
Every fan in the house screws up every tv in the house....
Buy the house back then sell it to the local college science dept.
Good luck,
That's the best response so far.
LOL
Get a parapsychic.
http://www.parapsychicjournal.com
Since it ahppens with an extension cord from elsewhere and on multipole TVs it is originating with the fans. Replace them and double check the wiring leading to them from the switch.
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My gut feeling is that something is arching out somewhere between a hot and a neutral or ground and that the increased power it takes to start an electrical motor is causing the arc. I think that the arc is causing some sort of electro magnetic field that is being picked up by the TV receivers. Of course I am no electricain or electrical enginer but neither of the two have been able to come up with a more likely scenario. It seems unlikely to me that every fan in the house is bad and needs replacing. I need to come up with a way to try and find the problem without making swiss cheese of the house or continuing to throw good money after bad.
definitely an EMF. And could be a flaw in the fans, especially if all from same batch. Electric motors commonly create EMFs. As a matter of fact, that is how they or any motor operates, by directing an EMF to act in opposition to the magnetic field alternatly. Not hard to imagine that it might be a sloppy designed armature or poorly wound and executed. You are wasting all this time chasing lots of things while ASSUMING the fans are good when logic dictates that they are the most likely suspect - IMO
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I would normally agree with your logic but the ceiling fans come from a lighting store the bath fans come from our HVAC contractor and the Kitchen Hood Fan comes directly from GE. All of these cause the same problem.
ah ha
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1) Issue appears driven by RFI.
2) Issue may be abnormal RFI, potentially driven by malfunctioning device and / or feedback to ground.
3) Are there Dimmers on circuits/switches supplying the Fans? Some dimmers are RFI emmiters.
4) Is there any chance one or more dimmers are faulty or connected to a fan instead of a light circuit?
5) Pulse in lamp coinciding with switching off fan may be a clue. I have seen this generated by: "normally operating" illuminated switches, (Internal lamp, micro neon bulb.), malfunctioning dimmers, and faults to ground.
JP,
Gotta start by elimnating things.
First get the POCO out there and insist that it's their problem. I think it is, but I'm not there and they may try and tell you otherwise.
You elimnated line voltages by plugging the TV into another house. Or did you ?
You eliminated RF interference by seeing the lamp flash. Or did you?
What those two did do was hint at a line spark that is causing RF interference and unwanted line current. Try changing the main breaker, even if that was already tried. If all the fans are on the same breaker, (probably not) replace that breaker.
You did say ALL fans and ALL TVs. Did you mean it?
Start by turning OFF every breaker. Connect a very fast response, peak indicating, ampmeter to the mains. Turn on a breaker to a fan, then switch on the fan. Repeat for each fan untill the ampmeter shows a peak current that is out of expectation.
If you don't find it that way, turn on the breaker to the magic lamp and repeat the above paragraph.
Let us know what you find out and we'll go from there.
SamT
Today the warranty rep called after the low voltage guys and the electricans had already left so I wasn't there to direct traffic. But I will be there the next time he has them scheduled. Thanks for the advice I will try all suggestions. Like I said I am no electrical genius but I took a voltameter and hooked it up to the ground and neutral on a receptical in the family room and it was reading 1 volt and going up to 1.4 to 1.5 when we flipped the fan switch it this room. This may be normal I just haven't had a chance to test it on a circuit that I know is working correctly.
VERY SPECIFIC details are needed and each step needs to be documented and any changes noted.You said ALL the fans.List each one giving the basic type and size. You may need to get actual model numbers and specs later.Now does this include the Furance blower? Does that include the furance induced draft fan (if it has one)? Does it include WH included draft fan (if it has one)?Does it include ceiling fans?, Whole House Fans? Attic vent fans?Since you said that it includes bath fans and kitchen fan they are completely different types and size so I don't see it as a fan issue.What is the electrical system like. Basic 200 amp service? More, less? sub-panels? Automatic generator and transfer switch?Any home automatic/electronic controls? Anything from x-10 to scene controllers, to full automation? What high end HVAC with electronic control panels?Is there a power company load demand controller or any other load control type of devices."Today we had a lamp pluged into an outlet in the family room and when we flipped the fan switch the lamp would emit a pulse of light, the lamp switch was off, so it appears that electricty is being fed back through the ground or neutral."What kind of light, a CFL or incandescent bulb. With the swtich was off it really doesn't matter what the wiring is like. Unless it was a grounded flourscent bulb then you could get a spike conducted with a difference between the ground and neutral.My focus would be on the main panel, specially the grounding, neutral, and bonding connections, the ground electrode system (what kind does it have?). Also connections through the meter and on the power co side.I have a feeling that you have a high impedence neutral connection. At least to high frequencies. I am not sure how that would happen and not also have low frequencies (typical unbalanced leg neutral problems). but if there is any like of transfer switch or load controller they might be miswired or defective.You might try to get hold of the power company ENGINEERING department and ask for a power quality testing.Are there any engineering schools in the area?
Edited 1/11/2006 10:40 pm by BillHartmann
3 different ceiling fans do not know model #'s at this point. Master bedroom, family room and bonus room. 3 bathroom exhaust fans. 1 microwave exhaust fan(GE). I was planning on checking on the furnace fan, the A/C condenser fan, the washer/dryer and the fridge tomorrow.
Basic 200amp service I believe. Sub pannel at the A/C unit out side and the furnace in the attic.
There are no real special features per say. The family room was wired for surround sound and the house has your basic security system.
I will check on the load demand controller. In fact my low voltage contractor brought up that point this afternoon.
The light was an incandescent bulb no ground on the plug.
I do not know what kind of ground electrode system.
I will call the power company tomorrow and ask them to check their connections.
Thanks for your help.
The light was an incandescent bulb no ground on the plug.
Today we had a lamp plugged into an outlet in the family room and when we flipped the fan switch the lamp would emit a pulse of light, the lamp switch was off, so it appears that electricity is being fed back through the ground or neutral.
Unless there is an LED or neon bulb in the lamp, it should not be possible for the incandescent bulb to generate any light.
If it was a fluorescent bulb, this would indicate a fairly high power RF source.
Everything you have written so far indicates high level RF emission.
I vote for having the power company come out. I suspect that you have some issues with the neutral line coming from the pole or a miswire with the transformer.
Good luck,
Marc
I was going to suggest the dishwasher and refigerator, but I see that you have the frig. And the both the washer and drier have bigger motors and thus draw more current. Also a garage door opener and sump pump."Shortly after the homeowner moved in they noticed that if you turned on any ceiling fan in the house the tv would have a poltergeist like white noise would flash on the screen."Is continous or a single short flash.Now that is really strange that the noise is when it is turned ON and not OFF. Motors are inductive loads and will cause a small arc turned off.
Edited 1/12/2006 8:33 am by BillHartmann
Who you gonna call?
Old electrician's trick:
Get you an old style battery powered AM, AM/FM is fine, transistor radio. The small and light ones, used to be called 'pocket sized', with the telescopic antenna and powered by a 9v battery is best. Flea markets and garage sales are good sources.
Extend the antenna some and tune the radio to a spot between stations. You want just a bit of hiss. Usually it is best to do this away from where the noise is likely coming from so a block away from the house would likely be good.
Then go to the house with it on and listen for the noise that approximates the pattern your seeing. By walking around and pointing the antenna to make the noise the loudest you can often isolate the source. This also works with electrical arcing. Worth a shot.
A small AM/FM radio has earned its spot in the big tool box. And when not detecting RFI and arcing I sometimes listen to music or the news on it.
My TV gets "snow" on it when we hang up our cordless phone and at other times. Part of our house had knob and tube wiring and I know the neutral and power are reversed in a couple places, so I'm thinking that may be your problem. The portable radio idea sounded good to for trouble-shooting. (I've also heard of TV's going nuts when a car with unshielded plug wires is outside, so it could be some radio frequency being set up by the fans and the TV is sensitive to them.)
Neutral and hot reversed would not cause this."(I've also heard of TV's going nuts when a car with unshielded plug wires is outside, so it could be some radio frequency being set up by the fans and the TV is sensitive to them.)"That is because those have continous arc with the spark plugs. However, all of these motors (fans) are induction motors and don't have any kind of internal arcing.Now things like vaccuum cleaners and drills use universal motors with brushes and they do cause similar type of noise.There should be nothing coming from the fans.
the TV acts the same when they plugged into another house, the Utility needs to be called...there is something very wrong with the Neut., but if the service is Ok ...then the house wiring is messed up, it sounds like someone has some neutrals mixed up.....
I am almost sure that it has something to do with the neutral and/or grounding system. But I still can' figure out what.These are inductive motors of different size and application. And they are fairly small, at least the bath fans are and I don't thing that the exhaust fan in an over the stove MW is a 3 Hp, 2500 cu ft/ sec turbo moster either. And being inductive they should not be generating any kind of electronic noise.And inductive motors don't have a surge on STARTING where this problem is. If it was turning off then it would be different.The only thing that I see that they have in common is that being inductive they have a lagging phase.But nothing in the supply should be affected by that unless possiblity there is some kind of electronic power meter, load control, or the like.Just a bad neutral connection would show other problems of flickering, dimming, and brightening lights.
well, ......it might be harmonics on the N.......
Well you need something non-linear in the circuit to generate harmonics. Either the load or something affected by the current draw.Motors aren't non-linear*. That leaves something in series with all of the loads. Back to the same problem what could do that and not cause problems with lights dimming or blinking.And it would really have to generate an extreme amount to be causing the problems that it is.* A variable speed furance motor uses an electronic controller. I am not sure which technology that they use. There are several 3 phase induction motors. 2 or more phase stators with permanate magnet rotor, dc motor along with the appropriate controller. Those would be non-linear loads.Never seen a bath or MV vent fan that uses that technology.There is one ceiling fan that I think might use it. http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/active/bdac/prototype/cfan.htm
I'm with the folks who think it's a clear case of Domestic Spying.I'd bet with a HAM radio. Wasn't it Monica who said "When it comes to getting porked the Whitehouse will never let you down" ?A sure was to check would be to find if the household alpha male or family cat has attempted to avoid neutering in the last 30 days. That would be a good clue. If the family cat is also the household alpha male then it's a sure thing !
whodda thunk a ceiling fan would require such a large report !!I don't think speed controls would cause the problem either, it was just another thing to eliminate.it is possible the problem is still in some really mixed up neutrals, the reason I am stuck on the neutralsis because
I have little experience with romex in a house, so anything I say relates to problems common with splicing t several multi-wire circuits in just about every j-box in a piped houseI have some of those touchlamps in the back room, and sometimes when the water cooler kicks in the lights flash...
same thing? I don't know
I quickly read through this forum, and it sounds like you hear an "undistinguish" language coming through the speaker of the TV, along with some interferance with the picture siginal. Knowing just enought to be dangerous, it sounds like a dirty single being boradcast by a local Ham Operator, who just maybe putting out a bit more wattage than the FCC allows. It could also be someone on a CB transmitter, as well. The thing that throws me off, is that it always coincides with the energizing the fans in the home. But queer things happen with radio signals. I once heard a story of a poor old woman, who kept hearing voices coming from her oven, she thought it was Death, coming to get her, poor thing. It was the ham operator, next door, working the 50 meter band at full tilt with a 3000+ watts with a home made amplifer! Look around for home built, long wire antennae, or some kind of tower. I know from experiance, walking under a long wire antennae, with just a florescent light tube at night, it will light all by its self, when the radio operater starts to talk on high output from a home made amplifier, a little spooky!
If it is in fact a Ham Operator, two things I know can be done, 1) talk to the radio operater, and he should first clean his signal, or he should install some kind of radio filter in the home that has the problem, at his expence, or both. 2) the operator should be kind enought to operate at a lower wattage, while folks are watching the TV, and then go to high power sometime after 12 at night.
Going to the FCC, is like talking to a wall, they are fare to busy with other more imporant problems, than a dirity signal from someone broadcasting with too much power, and the operators now that. Well, thats my two volts or watts, LOL.....................Pop
The govmint is spying on them. When the fans go on, a camera begins transmitting all the captured video to the secret service.
I was going to suggest..Dont use the fans and watch TV at the same time :>)Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What else is on the circuits? Are the fans on the same circuits as the TV?Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Feds.
It's Bushes fault!
Re: "It's Bushes fault!"I'm glad you agree. Any person with half a mind and the intelligence of a stump would see the obvious connection. And here I was thinking you were a knee jerk, sycophantic, for-profit Bush licker with masochistic tendencies and an inbreed compulsion to bend the knees in the face of power and wealth and always eager to receive the blessings of whip and boot laid on by your betters as long as it curries favor in their eyes.Good to see I was wrong. Good to see you still have the backbone to fight the power. Good to see that at heart your still an American.
AMEN SISTER!
LOL..you kill me.
You certainly are in my highlights of BT posters, witticism and talent, expertise and prosaic unruliness.
What a gift.
Carry on..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
FWIW-
I would plug the TV in to the neighbors house via ext cord. Disconnected from cable. Turn off all power to the house except the micro ( dedicated circuit). This should narrow down suspects to the panel box and incomming service.
i'm not a sparky, but i am semi-logical, and love a good mystery. i'd suggest trying a new source (bring in a new fan, saw or some other motor) and try. plug both tv and motor in at your location and try. if no interference, is it just your fans? try several outlets to see if you can make it happen.
if it always happens, plug in the tv next door. if it still happens, plug in the new device next door. if it still happens, it's bigger than your house. if powering the motor from next door cures the problem, it's your house.
if the source is your house and it happens with every outlet, move upstream. connect between the main breaker and the buss bars for power to the motor. if it quits, it's somewhere on the panel itself. if it doesn't, figure out a way to make it arc next to a splilled drum of lacquer thinner. i'll bet you 3 to 5 it goes away in the next build.
sorta like caddy shack. I'm all right.
Get high, watch the white noise and relax..it is gods way of telling you that you are having a stroke.
"Do not adjust your picture"
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Thanks.Re: ... "watch the white noise and relax..it is gods way of telling you that you are having a stroke."I like it. RFI and electrical noise as a call to transcendentally embrace the horror. The whole enchilada in one sentence. Electrical and information theory, existentialism, supernaturalism, contemplation of the human condition and Zen all wrapped up in one shot.Salute.
Bostrovia.
The worst part of real life is that there is no scary music, just before ya get hurt.
That my friend, is our enchilada.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Did you find the problem??
Marc