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I am building a porch in place of a covered deck that we have currently. The current deck framing and floor has rotted and will be replaced. Since I am basically saving only the roof and replacing everything else I will be chosing flooring soon.
I am am torn between pine and cedar flooring. I basically was going to just build a more rustic deck floor with PT pine….but then the ideas started flowing. I am leaning toward a cedar deck floor.
Any suggestions? From what I can see the cost of cedar vs. pine isn’t prohibative.
Thoughts? Comments? Large pieces of fruit?
Thanks
SJ
Replies
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Steve - All the porch floors I've done, had full 1" x 6" red pine. The red pine has a naturally high sap content, giving it a built-in preservative.
*Thanks for the reply. Red pine, I don't hink I have seen that here locally....almost all pine products here are Southern Yellow.From what you mentioned it has a higher sap content than SYP. Interesting. Do you have any thoughts on using cedar instead...or is that overkill?SJ
*Steve, if the cost is a wash I'd jump on the cedar. Cedar does have some drawbacks, as it is a soft wood, but I'd much prefer that over pressure treated.I did cedar on an uncovered deck on a cottage up in Wisco back in '93...maybe '94. I wash it off when I open the place up in the spring then give it a coat of preservative. It still looks great.Being a covered porch, will the boards be gapped or are you going to use t&g? If running them tight, try to get some ventilation under the porch, and/or place a sheet of poly on the earth under the porch to help minimize the high-humidity, moist environment. It'll give the boards extra legs.
*The porch floor is about 20" off the ground so there should be some good circlulation. When I was considering PT pine 5/4 decking I was planning on butting them together due to the fact they are going to shrink over time anyway and open gaps naturally. I didn't want to end up with 1/2" gaps after shrinkage. I was planning to face nail/screw the flooring therefore I wasn't going to waste my money on T&G flooring without having access to a nail gun to do it right.Will the cedar shrink like the PT pine? Should I gap cedar or butt each board?Thanks for the input.SJ
*Cedar does shrink, but off the rack it's usually a heckuva lot more stable than PT pine. I hate to say this, but I'd ask the guys at the yard where you're going to buy the cedar about the approximate moisture content of the wood they are selling. They should be able to give you a wag on what the moisture content of the wood is, and an idea of how much it will or will not move.I like to see square drive screws on decks. It makes any future maintenance so easy. If you get no good info regarding wood movement, you can gap the boards with a 16d nail...that usually works out pretty well.
*Thanks for the info. I have to see what the price difference is going to be. I only need 120 square feet of decking so we aren't talking about huge price variations. I also haven't decided which yard to buy from....except avoiding the HD scrap wood section they call lumber.I will be screwing the porch floor with the square drives. The interior walls and ceiling will be T&G pine. I will probably stain it light white so the grain shows. Overall it should look pretty nice.From what I am thinking the cedar should only be 15-30% more than Pt pine.....sound about right?SJ
*It really depends on what grade cedar you will be buying. If the price is close then you must be looking at #1 pine vs #2 cedar.
*Wow, I believe that cedar vs PT pine here is about 3-4 times higher for the cedar.At any rate, go for waht appeals to you and your pocketbook. It's primarily a matter of taste when costs are similar.Pete
*Alright Alright.....evidently I was comparing #1 Pine with a lower grade of cedar. I checked on some quality cedar 5/4 and it is easily 2-3 times the price of PT pine. So unfortunately I will be going with PT Pine. I have been looking for Ipe' and can't find any around here (MA).SJ
*On the web site Woodfinder ( http://www.wdfinder.com ) a search for Ipe in Massachusetts finds five companies.Dave
*I must be missing something here....from reading your posts, you're saying that Ipe is CHEAPER than cedar? I have never bought Ipe..its not really offered around here much. I thought it came from South America. (or is it Austraila) Where does it come from and what is it's cost compared to 5/4 PT yellow pine? (aaaaaagh!)Also, what about using Spanish Cedar? would'nt this work for a deck? I thought Spanish Cedar was cheaper than the other types, yet too was rot resistant.Someone please enlighten me....I need educated!Thanks.Davo.
*Around here ,(lower NY), Ipe is running at about $3.25 a lineal foot for 5/4"x6. IndoMahogany and Vertcal grain Fir are both about $1.25 per ft. for 5/4"x4 t&g. Ipe is extremely expensive as compared to both. Plus you have to figure in the cost of about a dozen or so drill bits/countersinks. The wood is so hard it must be pre-drilled and your bits superheat and break often. If it were me I'd go with the mahogany, it's a beautiful outdoor decking material.
*Steve,Here in the upper mid-west, t&g vertical grain douglas fir is the traditional porch floor material and is still the most often used type of flooring. However, I've had some problems with it on a porch floor that I did for my own house about 9 years ago...several rotted boards at the edge of the porch. Still, you might want to consider fir if you can avoid some of the problems I had. First, go with more than the minimal pitch for the porch (that is, somewhat more than 1/8" over a foot). Second, don't put on an edge board which wraps around the porch flooring as I did. Water gets trapped between the flooring and the edge board. Third, be sure to back prime the flooring.In the deep south, where they seem to use pressure treated material for everything, I've seen some excellent quality boards (at least on DIY television shows) which I believe are kiln-dried. Don't know why but that stuff never seems to make it this far north.
*I've been in touch with several local yards and each one gives a different vibe as far as price for each species. I have one guy saying that Ipe is a little cheaper than the cedar he carries, etc. etc. So it is hard to compare each species. I think I will wind up with the standard 5/4 PT SYP which I was trying to avoid. Not because I don't like it, just because I have a relatively small area which would be perfect for doing something different.I ordered up the framing lumber to be delivered today...only $400...so far. I am holding off on the decking until I can check out some other options.Fir has been mentioned....this may sound dumb..but how different can fir be from pine?ThanksSJ
*Steve,Fir has moderate decay resistance. Cedar, redwood, and mahogany are rated as excellent while most untreated pines are rated as poor. Also, fir is much harder than most pines making it more suitable for flooring. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it's been used for porch flooring for a hundred years or more. With a few precautions mentioned above it should last for many years on a porch. Fir was also used widely as interior flooring during the 1920's and, for interior applications, it looks lovely with a natural finish.
*Thanks Chip. From what I remember fir's price is higher than the PT pine but not crazy expensive. What type of finishing would you reccommend if any? Obviously the PT pine would stay the way it is...but I hate that green glow that some PT pine has. That is why I am exploring the options.I amplanning onhaving T&G pine interior with just poly on it or maybe tung oil and poly.Thoughts.SJ
*Steve, I used the dried after treatment that Chip mentioned. Mine is T&G 1x4 flooring, the brand name is ultrawood. You can get in the same grades as regular pine flooring it's just treated. I painted mine, but staining or varnish would look good too. My local yard here in Tennessee had to order it, so check around. Price last fall was 6.70 for 1x4x12
*Steve,I guess the first thing you need to decide is whether you want spaced boards or T&G flooring. Sounds like you're now leaning toward T&G. To my eye, 5/4" spaced boards (pressure treated or cedar) look fine on a deck and perhaps even a porch on a more modern house. However, most of the homes in my neighborhood are 100-150 years old. The porches on these homes (some fancy, others less fancy like my own) always had T&G flooring and to put something else on just doesn't look right, in my opinion.That said, there are not many alternatives at least around here for T&G flooring. My local lumber yard (a large independent supplier) only stocks vertical grain douglas fir, red oak, maple, and untreated southern yellow pine in 3/4" T&G flooring. Of these, fir is the only one I would consider for exterior use. But, fir is not ideal. It does not have the same natural decay resistance as cedar or redwood, as I mentioned above, and would need to be painted or perhaps varnished. You'll also need to make it slip-resistant. A painted porch floor is like a skating ring in the winter. You can add "skid-tex" to the paint or use adhesive skid resistant tape.It sounds like festus may have a source for treated southern yellow pine T&G flooring. I've used the untreated stuff for interior use. It looks good and is pretty much knot-free. If the treated stuff is the same quality and dried properly it might be your best choice. You may want to follow up on his post.
*Just to take this question a little further, Friday a customer called wanting to stop a second floor deck (PT pine 5/4x6) from leaking during a rain. My first choice was Duradek but they think it looks too much like a vinyl floor. Now the idea is porch flooring. Here's the dilema. No shade to speak of & they want(understandably)a slope away from the house. I can by Common white oak 3" flooring for less than fir porch flooring. Sound like a good idea? Any one ever try this? I just finished a bathroom in a house where it was usd on a covered porch built 70+ years ago & it looks great. My thought is a marine poly urethane.For the slope, I can either cut tapered sleepers & fasten over the existing decking or remove the decking & sister in new joist with the correct slope. All the existing framing is PT & the longest run about 12'. My concern about sleepers over the decking & even fastening to the existing joist is PT tends to move with the weather (central Ohio) so much, I'm afraid it will cause problems in the flooring. Any thoghts, ideas or other solutions?Thanks
*Mahogany, Mahogany, Mahogany, Mahogany. Stable, beautiful, mills easily, and you can lift a 16' with one hand. I insist on using it when I build. Especially with your small area, The choice is obvious.
*Rob, I would think the white oak would get splintery, though it would last forever. I like to use mahogany (phillipine) decking, 1x4 is a good alternative on older houses (but for architectural gems I'd stick with whatever's original). 5/4 x 6 is great on bigger decks, more expensive than PT but it will weather better. Mike
*George,Thanks for the "comeback" concerning Ipe and prices. I thought it would be expensive, and you proved me right.Steve,I agree with the others that say "use mahogany." Have you checked into the price of mahogany for your area. Around here, (SE Ohio region) its very reasonable in price. Heck, we used to use 8/4 X 8 mahogany boards to re-sheath steel hauling truck beds. The idea was that the mahogany would last a long time in the weather (we put no finish coats or sealers on these beds). The beds always succumbed to holes being made by steel coils being dropped on to them too hard rather than succumbing to the elements.We used "left-over" scraps of mahogany to make window frames and small benches. All were exposed to weather, all held up great. Its an easy wood to work with, and can be stained a nice brownish look if desired. Davo.
*I haven't checked the price of Mahogany in this area. I will however do that. As for someone's earlier post that mentioned more traditional porches and older homes etc. Our house is only 20years old and I can assure you it has no architectural significance whatsoever. It is your typical 40x26 ranch and we are trying to give it some character...it's getting there. Therefore, I don't feel I have to adhere to any particular style for the house to keep it uniform.The interior has been done with a more modern colonial look. I have been told by my better half that we will be "white washing" the interior T&G paneling on the walls and ceiling to give it an "airy" feel. After a translation I thought the look would be good. That is why I am trying to avoid the PT SYP "green" look.I will check on Mahogany. ThanksSJP.S. Anyone ever try this "white washed" finish?
*i Third, be sure to back prime the flooring. Be sure to BUTT-prime the flooring!
*Steve Joyce - sure.....a cuppa white paint to a couple quarts of water....slop it generously on the boards...never done it with already finished wood though...it just puts some lighter color on - lets the knots and grain show through...it's really nice if you want to emphasize a softer look, or some "airy-ness" - makes rooms look bigger when they're in lighter colors.....I usually use some robin's egg blue, because the white just tends to look dirty with the grain and such showing through....it would be nice with a creamy yellow though.....
*Courtney-Thanks for the suggestion....I build it she finishes it. We also tend to operate under the she buys it I install it theory....works for me.Finishing the interior is getting a little ahead of myself right now.ThanksSJ
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I am building a porch in place of a covered deck that we have currently. The current deck framing and floor has rotted and will be replaced. Since I am basically saving only the roof and replacing everything else I will be chosing flooring soon.
I am am torn between pine and cedar flooring. I basically was going to just build a more rustic deck floor with PT pine....but then the ideas started flowing. I am leaning toward a cedar deck floor.
Any suggestions? From what I can see the cost of cedar vs. pine isn't prohibative.
Thoughts? Comments? Large pieces of fruit?
Thanks
SJ