Looking for input here. It’s a typical railing around a stairwell; one end of the railing dies into the wall, the other end has an oak post, turned from 4″ oak. The problem is, the post is attached to the floor only, and this by one of those, how would you describe it, like a stud that is screwed into the floor (hopefully into a joist or beam), and then the post screws down onto it.
Two problems: one, to tighten the post, you need to turn it 360 deg to get the railing attachment to line up; two, since the post is at the top of the stairs, small children often grab it as they go around, and it starts to loosen, since the stud doesn’t have that much purchase into the end grain. Then you have a wobbly railing that doesn’t inspire confidence in DW’s eyes.
Since we have masters in the art of stairbuilding here, I’m asking for input on the best anchors to use. The attached sketch is a very bad schematic, with the red line showing the stud I’m describing (badly). And as a part two, why do people use such a poor design? Mechanically, it’s dumb to expect a stud like that to hold well in end grain, with such leverage on the top of a 40″ high post….
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In such situations I have used a bolt/lag screw which is 3/8" to 1/2" dia. I thread a nut onto the half that is a bolt, and after predrilling the floor, I use a wrench and screw the lag end into the floor. Then spin the nut off the threaded bolt sticking out of the floor. Then I drill a hole up the middle of the newel for the bolt to slide. Then I drill a perpendicular hole that is large enough to get a nut onto the threaded bolt coming up through the newel. Using the wrench tighten the nut and newel to the floor.
Hope that helps........
jocobe
While I prefer to anchor a newel into the framing with screws and epoxy to the depth of the floor framing, I have used that detail, though I always try to have right angle railing attaching to it.
When it works best, I seat the rail bolt into ep[oxy and have a bead of the same for the post to seat itself into. I do a dry run first to be sure that the newel will end up plumb and hollow grind the base of it first.
Between the right angle rails intersecting at the post, the fine fit, and the epoxy, I have not yet had a failure, but I still dislike the method and only use it when necessary. One option for yuou might be to drillla larger hole into the post and the floor and use a hardwood dowel with epoxy to make the union.
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I'm looking at something like described in post no 2, but i thought i'd get the experts view before making a decision. I hate having loose railings after 6 months. If the bastad wan't dead, i'd slap him.....
First of all,get the whole idea of spinning the post into the floor outta your head.. that's not how that works... as escribed in post #2 you spin two nuts on the finer thread side, then tighten them against each other, predrill into the floor, and screw the lag side into the floor itself using the same wrench on the top nut..you with me?
Now you have to drill up into the underside of the post, dead center, at least as deep as the bolt is high off the floor.
Now you need a large diameter forsner bit or even a whole saw and drill in from the side of the post, centered at the top of the bolt out of the floor.Ya get me what I mean here?
install your nuts, torque them down plug the hole you made on the side...and repeat 9 months later HAHA! J/k
seriously tho, put a dab of heavy duty Liquid nail on the post between it and the floor... and good luck...(you also might wanna pick up a Coffman or LJ Smith stairbuilding book, its like $15 but it will illistrate this stuff alot more
Edited 3/22/2004 11:48 pm ET by fitzcarpenter
Edited 3/22/2004 11:50 pm ET by fitzcarpenter
Edited 3/22/2004 11:58 pm ET by fitzcarpenter
As an aside..after doing all of the above..what I have done in extreme "geezus, what now circumstances) is toe screw with long..3" plus screws into the subfloor..BUT..do it a little different..when most folks think of a toenail or screw in a post the fastners would resemble an upside down pyramid pattern..all converging towards center...NO,,what ya want to do is angle the screws sideways as well as angled to the center..more like a swastika effect ( sorry for the analogy, its all I could think of when low on coffee) this is why longer screws are mo'betta..the splay gives aLOT more base support/holding power than the "Cone" type of anchoring...it works Really.
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That sounds like a good extra. I can't believe people who do this stuff all the time would use such a poorly designed system to anchor an end post, in a house they KNOW will have two small kids in it. If I'd a known he was doing that......anyway, one of the many things for me to fix.
Here's a hint for GCs....How to avoid callbacks? Just go bankrupt and die......
Just one more bit of info on the dual threaded bolt.
It comes as a kit on a blister pack at most stair supply shops and at Lowe's, too. Bolt is about 12" long, comes with nut and shaped washer that fits the contour of the 1 1/2" hole you drill in the side of the newel and will also have a tapered plug of oak or poplar to glue into the hole for the finish. Amazing that a bucks worth of parts can cost 12 bucks.<G> You'll need a box wrench to tighten the nut because the swing in the drilled hole is really minimal. With the course thread anchored in the solid framing below the floor that baby does not move. I can see the added value of the skewed screws - just a little extra finish work on the newel.
Another method involves another blister pack item.
Little right angle pieces of metal are screwed to the sides of the newel and through the floor, then trimmed over to hide. Haven't used that method so I don't have an opinion.
TenPenny,
Crack open the L.J. Smith Stair book. Lots of options. I use two. One is to Railbolt the Post to the Floor at opposite corners. Just like railbolting two pieces of rail together but the Wood screw portion goes into the floor and the Machine thread part in the post. the directions are on the package. A box end wrench will work but a Railbolt wrench isn't too expensive.
L.J. Smith also makes a Kit with a Bolt that screws into the center of the post bottom. You then put an insert into the floor and screw the post into it. It's not my favorite method but it never fails to pass code.
I once did a Prefinished Cherry stair rail for a builder. When I notched the posts and was ready to put them in he had the millwork shop who made them come out. They had a PUR glue gun. The industrial version. I sanded the stair surface they attached to and they glued the posts. I put them in place, plumbed them, and pressed lightly. I was skeptical to say the least. They promised me if I could knock them off they would pay me my day rate plus 50% to fix them. I let them cure over night and arrived bright and shiney read to amke a few extra bucks. I run about 200 pounds even and they never even moved. Of course the glue gun was like $800 and each tube was around $60.