I have two reputable builders that have bid on my new home. I provided plans and specs and both respond with a price and their spec sheets. From what I can tell they have both meet my specifications and have very little difference in the specs. The exception is floor trusses. The plan calls doe 2×12’s but one builder has proposed an engineered truss that he believes is better. Is that true and if so what’s the approx cost difference?
The proposing the the engineered truss is about 40K higher on a two story 3500 sq ft house and i am wondering is the difference is in the trusses. Also once you have prices is there typically room for some negotiation?
Replies
no, the difference is not in the floor trusses.. no two builders will build the same house..
they won't price the same, they won't do each task the same..
there will be 30,000 different things that one will do, that the other won't..
you have to decide which one you think will give you the house you want.. which one will fulfill your dreams..
it might be the higher one, it might be the lower one
for $40K on a house that size.. i don't hink price is the deciding factor
and yes you can negotiate anything.. but it might not work
Thanks
So, the guy who's $40K high is saying he's doing all the floor frames with floor trusses, instead of the specified 2x12s?
Where did you get your plans? Who specified the 2x12s?
Do you know how to read plans well enough to tell what your floor span lengths are?
Here is a little quickie primer on floor span know-how.
Example: floor joists run from one wall all the way to the other, they bear on the walls, the walls measure 18'-6" outside wall to outside wall.
The walls are framed with 2x4s, and are thus each 3-1/2" thick. The clear span the joists are reaching over is the distance between walls. So, the clear span is your 18'-6" dimension minus two 3-1/2" wall bearing thicknesses, or 17'-11"
I use a nifty on-line span calculator you can find at this site: http://www.cwc.ca/design/tools/calcs/SpanCalc_2002/
It tells me that for #2 SPF lumber in 2x12 size for floor joist applications, the maximum span is 19'-11" for bedrooms (basically, all non-living areas), and 17'-10" for living spaces.
Most of us don't feel comfy going out to the max numbers. I like to stay a few inches under.
So, roll up your sleeves, take a close look at that set of plans you have, and try to decide whether you think that 2x12 floor joists are OK with you.
And while you have the plans open, take a look at the design to see how the plans might have to change if taller floor trusses are used, in lieu of 2x12s.
A taller floor frame can change staircase configurations, maybe just enough to screw you up somewhere else.
On the other hand, using floor trusses can often make the running of mechanical things like wire runs, plumbing supply and waste lines, even HVAC ducting, easier.
As for cost, I was quoted by my lumber supplier, a floor truss package for 3000 sf of floor area, when simple 2x10s would make span everywhere. My cost for sawn lumber 2x10 framing, including rims, would be $3200. A floor truss package would be $6000.
I'm going with 2x10s.
Look, you worked real hard to get responsible bidders to quote apples to apples on the same tightly specified package. Ask the guy pushing the floor trusses to lower his price by quoting the specified 2x12s, and while you're asking him, ask him for the max spans for both living and sleeping spaces.
If he keeps saying how much he really likes them, ask him why. Make him go into detail. If he keeps saying how much easier things go (maybe plumbing, etc.), then ask him if he factored all that "ease" into the job.
Then, with almost exactly comparable proposal specs, make up your mind.
Gene thank you for taking so much time to answer my question. The widest span in the house is 18ft and the span calculator indicated that max span for that space is 21 ft so it sounds like I am good form that perspective. I have been told that the engineered truss provides less chance of floor squeaks and in general a better base for sub flooring. less ridges etc.. Do you know if that is true? The rest of your advise is excellent and will help guide my next steps.
Thanks again.
I've never built with floor trusses, but I have built with sawn lumber (2x) floor joists and "engineered" I-joists. My worst case of unevenness and squeaks was with one of the I-joist jobs.
If your worst case span is as you say, then you will have quite good floor "performance" with the 2x12 sawn lumber joists. By performance, I mean deflection under load, "bounce," and vibration, all which are minimized by staying under maximum span guidelines.
As for quality, and I am addressing flatness and squeak elimination, these things are in the hands of the builder and his framing crew.
Flatness is achieved with good framing carpentry techniques, using good lumber. Eliminating squeaks is done with knowing how to use hangers, making good structural connections, and proper gluing and fastening of subfloor.
Careless carpenters can make for uneven and squeaking floors, even if using gold-plated floor trusses!
As for subfloor, make sure your builder is quoting and using Advantech, or an equal.
Trusses do make for a better floor. They don't shrink as dimensional lumber does, so you reduce the chance of squeeks considerably. The builder should still use construction adhesive under the subflooring, too, to make the chance of squeeks nearly zero. The tops of the trusses are wider than dimension lumber (e.g. 2 x 12) so fewer nails miss the joists and they can be placed a bit farther from the edge of the sheet. They make running piping and wiring easier, too, which is not really much concern to you.
Piffin is right, the difference in cost is not even close due to the trusses.
Have you seen with your own eyes a couple of homes built by both builders, and checked references on how previous jobs went?
Thanks very much. Yes I have seen to completed homes by both and spoken to their owner. I have also checked with the Better Business Bureau and the local licensing agency and neither have any complaints. On the surface both house were finished with what I consider a high degree of quality workmanship and material. One builder however only uses block foundations and the other only uses poured concrete foundation. I always thought concrete was better but i can't validate that. I believe concrete is more expensive.
Re-inforced concrete is far better as a foundation in most soils than a bliock foundation is. Cost comparisons candepend on the area you are in. For instance, theer are a lot of block lauyers in the southern states like Carolina and Georgia where frost is unlikely to damage a foundation. in the north, where freezinfg conditions are hard on a foundation, the 'crete is definitely the way to go.So - is the guy with the concrete the same one who who uses the trusses for floors? if so, re-read my first reply - the part about it being a sign of the hundreds of other things ...
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Pif, you might be surprised at the housing markets where block foundations are de rigeur for the great majoritiy of homes, including those way up at the high end.
I'm not sure. Do we know where this house is to be built?
But once again, the issue is, I believe, one of quality and attention to detail. Block foundations have been around for a long time, and many fine homes, built quite a while ago, are sitting atop them.
And you and I both know that there have been some very badly done poured concrete ones.
I would want to know this from each builder:
What will you do inside the foundation to deal with any possibility of water intrusion, and any possibility of plumbing failure?
What will you do outside the foundation to prevent ground water penetration, and how will you handle drainage.
What will you do to see that the foundation is engineered to deal with the soil conditions of my site.
Are you aware of any special drainage conditions that exist at my site, and if anything is to be addressed to get water away from the foundation, how will you deal with it?
But I would also want to know this, not from the bidding builders, but from the source of the bid specs that seemed to allow either a CMU foundation, or one of reinforced concrete, to be used:
Given my site, my groundwater conditions, the design of the house, type of soils, etc., will one type perform the same as the other?
Forty grand is a pretty fair sized spread. It is definitely not all in the trusses. They are definitely better and have some corresponding labor savings also. A house can have an extra 2-4000 dollars in using floor trusses
I wonder in what way did you establish the reputations of the builders. There are two things in my mind on this issue.
One is that the one recommending the floor trusses is sending a clue in his recommendation that he is focused on quality, and that could mean that in the hundreds of other unseen details that you may never be aware of, he will also do the best thing. That could be true with the other builder too, but how will we know?
Another thing to be aware of is rthat in bidding work, some contractors will bid low to the very minimum that weill get by, and then as the job progresses, he will suggest upgrades with attendant change orders and upcharges. I've seen that so many times that I come to expect it. Sometimes the final cost is higher than the original higher bidder.
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Thanks, these are excellent points to consider. The specs are pretty detailed but I am sure there all many ways to cut cost as the job progresses. I think i need to prob a little more with each builder on the specifics.
"A house can have an extra 2-4000 dollars in using floor trusses"
I can't think of a situation where that would be the case. The reduced labor from using floor trusses hould offset most or all of the cost difference.
Heck the COST of the floor trusses themselves shouldn't be much more than $4,000.
If money doesn't grow on trees then why do banks have branches?
You are right about the labor savings, which is one reason I like floor trusses. I thought I mentioned that, but I guess not.Back in '99,I built a ghouse that took about 6500 for the floor trusses
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Please expand on the labor savings of floor trusses, and use my attached main floor frame as the example.
What is shown is more or less 2200 sf of area, with the joists on 16-inch centers, except for where we have to add some off-layout joists because of some wall framing above.
All joists are 2x10, and with the exception of the staircase area, and the small bumpout which uses 6s cut from 12s, all joists are used at mill lengths of 10, 12, 14, or 16 feet. Minimal cutting.
How would floor trusses save labor on this floor, and about how much would be saved?
It starts in the design phase, when I can often eliminate setting all those posts and beams in under tjhe joists by desingning for a slightly deeper truss. At about 24' spans on yours, I don't know if it would work out quite as well, but on 20 to 22' spans, it breaks pretty well.
On my house, for instance, i used TJIs ( I know - not true trusses, but for discussion a valid example) running 28'. With solid sawen lumber, I expect that working alone, it would have taken me three days to frame and deck my first floor, time I set the beams first. But using the TJIs, I set all the joists, and glued and nailed the plywood on in six hours. It even suprised me how fast it went. left me wondering what I would do for the rest of the day, so IO went into the cellar space and kicked the beams in on some posts in the shade of the afternoon sun.On several p[rojects since then, i have used open web trusses, and my subs rave about how much more easy it is to run wiring, ducting, and pipes. They don't have to drill, and I don't have to lose sleep worrying about the plumber notching a joist wrongly.Back to yours, even if you ke3pt same depth and beams, to span the total distance, you need two joists. We can set a truss as fast or faster than setting a joist. Cutting can take a bit longer, but not much. But We can set that floor nearly twice as fast with trusses as with joists, because there are half as many pieces.
Then, consider that we can often end up with trusses at 19.2", eliminating one out of six, for a decrease in nubmer of items set by another 18-20%
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Thank you
Thanks very much
I agree with Boss Hog. The cost difference would be minimal for a much better product!
these are all very good questions ...
for the builders U are thinking about using.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Thanks, I do intend to have those discussions but was hoping for some insight since my experience is limited.