New construction, was set on Marvin for windows but Kolbe seems simular & less expensive. Anyone know if they compare? Or do you get what ya pay for?
Victor
New construction, was set on Marvin for windows but Kolbe seems simular & less expensive. Anyone know if they compare? Or do you get what ya pay for?
Victor
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Replies
Kolby and kolby are nice windows, installed some 10+ years ago because their "standard"size fitted the best in the old holes. they are the paint type and still have their good looks.
With the price they are quoting me, they better last 10 years!
Thanks
Have you looked at Pella or andersen? 50k is a lot of windows. Pella proline is a very nice window for the money.
Try Anderson and get a price at Home Depot. I saved close to 20% from what my GC proposed.
Whatever brand I choose, I'm looking at their top of the line windows. I think the one's at home depot are the budget line. Plus they only come in certain sizes. This job will need a variety of sizes, some custom. I think Marvin and Kolbe will make any size I need.
Thanks
I,ve been looking at new windows lately also and am really impressed with Empire Pacific. Don't know if they are available in your area, but they impressed me with their warranty and their hardware. Very well built.
I'd avoid ordering anything special from HD let alone 50k worth of windows.
this isn't just a bash HD thing either, despite my personal feelings about them.
here's my reasons why.
HD simply is not set up for special orders, they're fine for walking in and picking something up off the self, but the way the place is set up is to move a lot of the same merchandise, not special orders. I've placed probably a dozen special orders from HD, as limited as I could be, and only one order has come in with out some sort of hitch.
HD clerks are not window salesman, they're generally speaking a guy who happens to work in the window and door department and probably doesn't have the knowledge a guy who does it for a living will have, so you will get better service and knowledge about the product from the Anderson dealer.
If there is a problem, who do you think is going to be able to service your problem better and quicker, who has better connections with the factory to resolve you resolve problems a true Anderson dealer or HD?
what ever you save in dollars could quite possibly come back and bite you in the rear in headaches, delays, and lack of good service.
and the guy's who saved 20% over what his contractor was charging probably only really cut out the contractor's cost of dealing with the order and his mark up out of the equation.
I recently installed some Anderson vinyl clads, and they had any size I needed. They ahve a slick catalog with standard sizes, but they will also make any size you need. I second the comment to not order from Home Depot, or lowes. You can get just as good a deal with the Anderson salesman, and be certain that he knows windows. And you're right, HD is in the business of mass merchandizing standardized products, not taking special orders, in spite of what they say. My local rep sells two other lines as well, and is not shy about offering them if the Andersons are to pricey.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
> This job will need a variety of sizes, some custom.
Then your best choice would be to find a small local window maker. You'll know you have the right one when the owner comes out in person to look at the house and measure the rough openings. Your $50k should be one of the biggest most important orders they get in a year. For that kind of money, you can get somebody who really knows windows to make your satisfaction a top priority.
A couple years ago, I really effed up a $20k window order, buying from the wrong place. Thereafter, I got lots of suggestions here, the above being the best. Somebody recommended a window shop out near the Santa Monica airport.
-- J.S.
Ah, yes, John. Remember your comments on the problem. Don't remember just how it all came out though. What was the final resolution. Any after the fact advice for someone facing wrong size windows? (I don't have any at the moment, just curious...)
vic... i've worked on peachtree,pozzi, marvin, pella, andersen,crestline,brosco,eagle, hurd, kolbe & kolbe, & weathershield...
i've bought and installed pella, marvin, andersen, weathershield, brosco, crestline,hurd, & kolbe & kolbe....
i really liked the kolbe..
marvin was a good window... but way overpriced... weathershield has to be the dumbest company on earth... peachtree had warranty issues aound coastal communiities ( would'nt warrant them with in range of the ocean )
but my all-time favorite has to be andersen.. and now they have complete custom capabilities...their pricing, features, warranty, special order and durability is second to none..
don't deal with a HD.. find an Andersen preferred dealerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm thinkin you are gunnin for a comercial for anderson?
I think it would air good, your up on a scaffel and tearing out a Pice of Crapo window and you repeat the statement. Hey I'll buy it.
I looked into Andersen. I think I prefer to have aluminum clad over the vinyl. Like I said in an earlier post, the Andersen bid came in very low on many of the windows and doors, but as soon as I got into some custom sizes that are not standard to Andersen they were not much cheaper. I know they all look simular, but I'm still not sure if I like the way they look compared to some of the others. I have also heard they are a great product, good warranty, and good service. I have not purchased yet, so they are still in the running if I can't get the Marvin, Pella, or ? guys to come down in price. Not looking at Weathershield, Peachtree and many others because I just don't have the time. Reading way too much bad news about Kolbe to mess with them. Pozzi is the wild card.
I can't stand even walking into Home Depot, let alone buy my windows & doors from them!
Thanks
here's a glassed in porch we're doing... all andersen picture windows and double-hungs on the end walls.... grills between the glass... factory finished interiors... 4 weeks from order to deliveryMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Nice looking job! Where do you by your Andersens? Do you have any problems with service? I still like the window and the price but I can't get any service when I need it. My supplier was a stocking Andersen dealer who bought from a local distributer. Andersen evidently droped their distributers and my supplier droped them because they did away with the rep in our area, and couldn't promise any service. Just the dreaded 1-800 number. My salesman said Andersen Logistics was a nightmare for him also.
k... service drives my loyalty... way before price..
Andersen recently consolidated ( i think last year )... they dropped distributors and created additional responsibilities for the remaining ones..
in our area they dropped Cleary Millwork and gave everything to Brosco..
they increased their product line by buying KML to take care of their CUSTOM and they shifted a lot of the architectural support duties to the distributor.. ( in our case Brosco)...
after a few mis-steps..it seems to be working fairly well..
Home Depot is seperate from the regular distribution.. i have customers who buy from HD.. but i won't go near them for Andersen.. too many levels between me and the orderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Guess I'll throw my 2 cents in.... working in a new house full of Pella 'Architect' series double-hung wood int/clad ext. windows. I can barely latch any of 'em. Force the upper sash as high as possible, the lower one down hard, and try to rotate the latch closed. Half the time it barely works and the other half the latch arm rotates out on top of the upper sash rail. About 70 new windows in this place and all the same. I predict a call to the builder from the owner about 5 minutes after sundown on the day of move-in. Couple of new Marvins in my place and I love them as always.
I instruct all my clients, especially in times of high humidity, to latch the windows right after installation and keep them latched so they will "seat". The windows are not shipped in the locked position and therefore need to be latched when installed. 5 days usualy does it. Also check the installation for square and plumb. If the windows are not square the check rails will not be parallel and therefor not line up.
I've installed over 400 pella double hung units and no problems if the above methods are followed.
MES
I ended up making a jig to make the dutchmen to fill in where the crappy slide hinges were, and jigs to route for proper Baldwin brass hinges. Then I routed grooves for the good weatherstripping from RCT to replace what came with them. The undersize isn't a big problem, just tacking some extra wood in the rough openings fixes that.
-- J.S.
How big a window package is it? $5K? $50K?
Are both quotes for the same thing? Same specs, same glass, same grille stuff, etc.?
Does the guy quoting high know how high he is?
They are both good window companies, with good products.
Closer to 50k, there are some patio doors also.
They are pretty much the same thing. I'm comparing The Marvin Clad Casemaster with simulated didvided lites vs. the Kolbe Ultra Clad with simulated divided lites.
My Marvin guy knows I'm considering Kolbe. The quote is still 15% higher. He says it's well worth it, but of coarse he's selling them. He also sells a few other brands.
Thanks
Where are you located? Where I am I can get Marvins quoted by two different guys, and I know each has a different discount.
You owe it to yourself to have your local Pella dealer quote it, too. With the size package you have, you can be asking (maybe even telling) your salesmen to sharpen their pencils.
I'm in Southern California
I think he did sharpened the pencil. It was my second bid from a Marvin dealer. I told the second guy that I had already got quotes from others, and his bid came in way less than the first guy. Still higher than Kolbe. I told him the difference and he insists it's worth it. He thinks it's that much better of a product. Maybe I should have told them I was looking at more than two window brands. The Kolbe guy had no doubt he would come in under Marvin. I think the Kolbe dealers get them cheaper than the Marvin dealers, so they have more room to play with. I guess I will look at a few other brands but it's been a headache just looking at two!
Thanks
Get hold of a Pozzi rep and have him quote it, apples to apples. Same for Pella.
I believe they are all in the same class, quality-wise. Marvin, Kolbe, Pella, Pozzi.
If you've a clearly written spec and schedule, it should not be too tough on you to get additional quotes. With a package your size, you should be able to insist on a two-day turnaround for the quote.
If anyone is insisting their premium is worth it, insist he make his pitch, detail by detail, in front of you, using sample windows. Play "show me the money" with him.
Vic,
For additional input on the Marvin and Kolbe windows, there is a large discussion over at GardenWeb's Building a Home Forum.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0619241823851.html?24#post
There you will also find input on a few other manufactures such as Pella, Eagle, and Pozzi.
If you are seriously inquiring about the Kolbe & Kolbe Ultra Series casement or awning windows, and the Kolbe & Kolbe inswing patio doors, we have evidence that these products have suffered from defects which have lead to leaking problems. In addition, we believe their sill design is self destructive. I've gone into it in greater detail on the other forum.
http://www.leakywindows.com
we have evidence that these products have suffered from defects Who is "we"? Are you related to another manufacturer? I have no relationship to any manufacturer, but I am curious as to your basis for making that comment.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
We are not related to another manufacture. "We" are in litigation with Kolbe & Kolbe. The basis of the comment is to inform and educate others on issues relating to some of Kolbe & Kolbe's recent product line, defects suffered by these products, and Kolbe & Kolbe's actions (and lack of action) regarding service and warranty issues. These products described earlier were proven to be defective and leak, not only by a team of construction and legal experts hired by us, but also by the team of experts hired by Kolbe & Kolbe and their insurance carrier. This is not a question of defective product vs. faulty installation. It is the product and its manufacturer that are liable. But of coarse you won't her it from them. I am one of the victims of these defective products and Kolbe's inability and unwillingness to resolve the problems. I go into it in greater detail over on the Garden Web board. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. That is why I am here.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0619241823851.html?24
Regards
Ok, that's fair. Just wanted to see where you were coming from. We take a dim view of posters who promote a product or comapny for their own benefit, but we welcome "testimonials" from homeowners and contractors.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
What a nightmare! I'm gonna see what the Kolbe sales rep has to say about this. Thanks for the heads up.
Has a friend back in Virginia built a new house about 8 years back and he had Kolbe + kolbe.
All the paines failed the first year, but they were replaced OK. So far so good, but not the best first impression.
Again...." What Fighter said"
The Kolbe windows that I've had experience with are not a well designed product. The design allows water to get behind the cladding and the underlying wood rots.
Again I say. for my own house... Marvin. because of quality.
For a spec. house... Anderson, because of popular name recognition.
For a dog house... Ok, I wouldn't even use Kolbe on a dog house, He's been too loyal to me for that.
Mark,
Anyone you know who has the Kolbe & Kolbe Ultra Clad Series windows and doors, and is experiencing defects or leaking problems, can email me at: [email protected]
They may be able to benifit from the situation I'm in, and also from information we have.
Regards,
Fighter
I am staying away from Kolbe & Kolbe. Even though they were the lowest bid, I think Fighter and Mark raise a good point about their design. Looking at them in the showroom I can't tell how they would leak or not but I do see how the design could lead to problems. When I asked the sales guy about leaking, rotting, and a lawsuit, he acted like he did not know anything. He gave me the feeling he was just playing dumb. I read elsewhere that Marvin had some problems also, and the Marvin salesman admitted it. He said the product line has been changed since. Marvin now makes them with an airspace between the clad and the wood which fixed the problem. Also looked into Andersen. Another builder told me they have a outstanding warranty and service policy. Their bid would have come in low, right at, or under Kolbe's, but since I want a lot of non standard sizes the cost goes up a lot. They have their windows already made so if I want the custom sizes it's not cheap anymore. Marvin and Kolbe build all their windows to order. Still going to look at the Pozzi and Pella lines. Looks like I'm going to have to pay the premium if I want a piece of mind, and go with the philosophy that you do get what you pay for.
Thanks fror all the input!
Yes, you get what you pay for!
Marvin are good windows. They are what I would put in my own home. Kolbe are cheap. Go look at a 5 year old house that has Kolbe windows in it. See how many of the sashes are starting to rot behind the cladding.
You seem to have opened a discussion to all sorts of know-it-alls who all have their favorite windows. But from my vantage point, I think if you are considering Marvins, I see that most of the other companies use them as a standard, both for quality and for price. I have been installing Loewens for years and find they compare with most of the other companies, but their prices at the factory have taken an un-expected jump recently (their factory reps are very good). Because we are "importing" here, I have managed to meet many of the company reps over the years, and all this leads me to the conclusion that there aren't a helluva lot of differences in window quality. So factor in prices and services and see how you come out.
I 've used most of the windows mentioned here. Used Peachtree 300 series on the last house (mid 200s) and liked the look for the money. They were absolutly the worst windows I've ever used. The mulled units did not line up, the jambs were bowed almost beyond repair (some had to be replaced), and the list gos on.
A used Andersen almost exclusivly for about 15 yrs untill a few yrs back I had trouble with a $2400 hinged patio door. What I got for service was a 1-800 number where I spoke to a customer service rep. He told me to take the lock assembly apart, figure out what was wrong and he would send the parts so I could fix it. The was the end of the line.
On my 2 current projects I selected Kolbe & Kolbe Sterling Clad DH with no grilles in one and PDLs in the other. One job calls for Oak interiors. It's a great looking window with endless options but what sold me was our area rep. He was very helpful with the design process with diminsions for exterior casings, brick jack arches, door transoms etc. He also met with both clients and showed them all the features. He assured me that customer service was top knotch and gave me some names to check him out. I did and got great reports so I took the plunge. $47k on one project and $34k on the other. It's a big investment but If looks and reputation are anything, my clients are going to be very happy.
k
It seems all the sales reps I have spoken with will bend over backwards for me as well, but then they are salesmen!
I was leaning heavily toward Kolbe at first because they seemed a lot like Marvins but were much cheaper. I have done some research since and have spoken with a few individuals who have installed Kolbe windows, lived with them, had problems, and dealt with Kolbe on a service level. I can't imagine a better feel for the company and their windows than that. Problem is, each reference was a horror story.
What would your second pick be?
Thanks
Vic,
I hope that won't be my experience. I know Mark is a salesman but I usually can pick the people I do business with. There have been a few sleeze bags along the way. I did talk to a contractor friend of mine who highly recommended Kolbe also before placing my order. So I'll hope for the best. It seams that windows and doors are becoming a problem like so many other building materials. There was a time when windows and doors were almost no headache.
For a Second choice I guess I would go with Marvin but I found Kolbe prices to be about as high as my clients were willing to pay.
k
Kcoyner,
Just be careful. I'm not saying it's going to happen to you, but any one who sells or installs windows and doors could be liable even if you do nothing wrong and the problem is a poorly designed or defective product.
Kolbe & Kolbe Millwork is actually sueing my Kolbe sales rep for selling me their defective and leaking windows and doors. I came to my sales rep with Marvins specified on my plans. He sold me on Kolbe & Kolbe (big mistake) because he said they were just as fine of a product as Marvin and were significantly cheaper (he could still have got me Marvins if I chose). I also liked the way the Kolbe products looked. These are the Ultra Clad Series casement and awning windows, and inswing patio French doors I referred to in earlier posts that were proven to be defective and leak. I am legally going after Kolbe & Kolbe for the cost to remove the windows and doors and replace them with another brand. Kolbe & Kolbe turned around and not only sued the contractors involved, but also sued their very own sales rep even though the problem was proven by them (Kolbe & Kolbe) and other construction experts to be from their own products.
I guess their logic for suing their very own sales rep is that he should have sold me the Marvin windows which apparently wouldn't have leaked.
I know this sound unbelievable, but it is happening as we speak (or type). We should be going to trial within the next three months.
Regards,
http://www.leakywindows.com