PROBLEM IN RESTAURANT LIQUID SUPPLY FOAMING
Here’s the problem which has been denied posting now 3 times. There is liquid in a walk in cooler. The liquid travels through tubes that are together with cold water circulating tubes. The group of tubes taped together enter a 6 inch pvc pipe in the walk in cooler. From there the pipe and tubes go down under the floor and back up under the counter about 25 feet away.
Since the liquid is foaming when it comes out of the faucets and from previous experience the guy thinks there mus be standing water down in the 6 inch pvc pipe. He has both ends of the pipe sealed with expandable foam. What is the long term solution to this – it seems like a perfect set up for condensation.
I would tell more but the device may go off here and not accept the post.
Replies
Fonz
Are these "tubes" the beverage supply's that come from cooled tanks?
If so, these are usually "powered" by CO2. The foaming in carbonated beverages usually means there's a problem with the CO adjustment.
The only tanks I've seen in a walkin were for beer. All the others were in a beverage closet and were quick cooled by passing through a cooler plate buried in the ice chest.
In addition, most of the "tubes" were merely taped together, not run through a pvc chase.
So, am I close?
It's vaguely possible that water is heating the alcoholic beverage slightly, and causing it to foam. But if so the foaming should stop after one has drawn a couple of pitchers worth -- enough to cool the water a bit. (Measuring the temp of the stuff coming out would be a more "professional" approach to diagnosis.) And if the problem is with water, it seems like one should be able to snake a roughly 1/4" tube down the conduit and suck out the water.
But I'd suspect there's a problem with pressure/turbulence instead.
Fonz
I would defer to advice from the folks that set up the system..................
or if beer-
Their knowledgable rep.
Too much CO2 will cause havoc with beer. And if beer-then have they kept the lines clean?
If I was closer, I'd come in and sit around and consult for a while.
I took one of those pipes apart once. I never want to do it again. NASTY stuff in there. There is no long term fix. You just have to clean out the pipe once in awhile. Like Dan said, vacum the line and if it is real bad, have it jetted.
To clean the pipes do you have to have special equipment?
DOES THIS APPROACH SOUND RIGHT?
I checked with the owner and the beer guys clean the lines once every 2 weeks. The lines were replaced about 3 years ago. The CO2 is set at 12 and he is aware of releasing the extra pressure on the kegs so again the question is whether there is water in the 6 inch PVC passageway heating up the beer on its way to the faucets.
I have an idea I think we'll try - some form of - today. If we remove the foam sealing around the trunk line at both ends, put a vacuum pipe down to the bottom in the cooler and I go to the other end with an electric leaf blower - if there is water I should be able to blow it all to the cooler end where the other guy can suck it out.
If there is debris in there that would blow out in the cooler I should be able to stop it with a nylon paint strainer taped around the vacuum and the 6 inch pipe. Does this make sense? So the idea I have is to blow all the water down to one end, straining it to keep from blowing out debris, and sucking any water out at the bottom of the elbow straight down in the cooler.
I'm thinking that if you try to blow the water out it will just go glug-glug and let the air past, kinda like a toilet trap. (Assuming there's any water in there to begin with, of course.)
We removed some of the expandable foam and could see water up in the 6 inch PVC pipe about 4 inches above the floor. We stuck a 1 inch PVC with a slightly angled cut straight down to the elbow - about 30 inches. The guy I work with just got a new Rigid vac with a bunch of fittings - one was an adaptor that fit the 1 inch suction tube.
We vacuumed all we could get which was 5 gallons. It smelled like vinegar.
I went to the bar end and slid the electric leaf blower in beside the trunk line - I ran it as slow as it would go.
We got 45 more gallons out - had to empty the full 16 gallon vacuum 3 times.
Now the problem is finding out how the liquid is getting in.
Fonzie,
If it smelled like vinegar I think you have a leak in the beer line. Acetic acid (vinegar) is produced by bacteria from alcohol.
KK
Ken
you must spill alot of beer down there......................
or
are one heck of a chemist.
I'm hoping for the latter.
Just a little of the brewing and distilling trade he picked up here and there.
Calvin,
Use to make beer ages ago, think Bass Ale. Also have a minor in chemistry from LSU.
Made beer............................chemist.................
Yup, that's expert opinion if I ever heard of it.
Me?
Drink beer.
Still can't remember which to add to what---------------acid/water.
do drink water.
have taken acid.
But I digress.................................
Yup,
no way listen to me.
I had no idea you could make beer out of Bass...must be one heck of a chemist
I had no idea you could make beer out of Bass
The beer comes out tasting a little like lutefisk.
Cussnu,
You never had Bass Ale? That's some good stuff. My hoity toity lawyer bud was over with an ice chest of Bass and I put one of my brews in a mug and one of his in a mug. He could not tell the difference. Mine cost 10 cents his cost $1. Had to quit brewing when my friends found out I always had a fridge full.
Here's the puzzle about a leaky beer hose - the trunkline was replaced about 2 years ago and the "radiator hose" that encases all the lines looks really good so how could the beer get from the inside of the trunkline into the outer pipe.
...however...we did find this: the trunk line came up about a foot short under the beer faucets and so they spiced in what looks like 12 inch lengths of the old hose (I understand that could foam beer) and it was wet around those spliced tubes under the foam cover (condensation I think).
Since the trunk line doesn't start until a foot down beer from around the faucet possibly spill could get through around the faucet flange and the little overflow tray and run down around the outside of the trunkline (and it was wet down around where it entered the pipe.
I don't know if it's ever been vacuumed out like this - blowing from one end and sucking from the other so that stuff could have been in there a long time. Maybe the answer is to vacuum every month or so.
The guy I work with thought if he got stopped they would give him a breathelizer test. It's a smell to remember.
You know, when you have too much beer you've got to get rid of it somewhere ...
It is an interesting challenge. 4 beer guys came today 3 different visits and nobody can figure it out yet but they are pretty interested. There is talk of pulling the trunk lines.
We tried again today to see if we had missed any water and only got a quart even vacuuming through a garden hose.
If they pull the lines they should run a pig through there -- probably a lot of crud in that pipe.
Can't you pressure test the lines first before they pull them all the way out? Seems as though you should be able to rig up a pressure guage and see if you have any drop at all just to ensure its not the lines themselves that have gone bad.
There doesn't appear to be a leak in the lines. The trunk lines are like new coming out of the radiator hose (like) sheath they are encased in. There hasn't been an increase in beer keg use (I can't remember how many gallons they hold but it would be evident).
The owner said he has been fighting the problem for 3 years. I think the stuff may have been in there a long time.
One wild idea I had was that somebody had (unknowingly as far as understanding how it all worked) - that somebody stuck the tube from the little overflow tray under the beer tower into the passageway. It would have reached. It just dangles down to a cone shapped upside funnel that sets on the drain under the counter. It could have easily been stuck in around the trunk line at some point. That's the only explaination I've been able to come up with other than a leak a long long time ago never vacuumed out.
Yesterday the guy found out that though the walk in cooler is set at 37 the fans all blow straight acoss while the beer kegs are back in the corner. One of the beer guys drew beer from the keg and it was 41 degrees - the same we are getting out at the beer faucets. He's planning to redirect the air and turn down the coolant temp.
Does the conduit run underground? Is is possible that groundwater is leaking in?
At this point it couldn't be ruled out. The tentative plan is to check it again in a month or two. Too bac there isn't a convenient location for a condensate pump built into the system - a low point sump that's accessible. It seems like condensation would always be a problem when you run 37 degree coolant constantly out and back through a 2 1/2 bundled trunkline.
I heard of a similar problem in a similar setup from the REF guy.
:The trunk lines have been replaced and look really new on both ends. The beer guy says you would notice it at the kegs if the lines were leaking. Where the lines come out of the outer rubber shield they are high and dry on both ends. If a line was leaking inside the sheath liquid would be coming out of the sheath I think.
Bartenders come and go so often, and not all of them are the brightest bulbs, so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if at one time if someone ran a drain into the conduit thinking it looks like it should drain somewhere - we know what a drain looks like, a 21 yr old who's never worked in a bar before things everything is foreign......
It wouldn't surprise me if the owner doesn't have a clue how that much water made it down there - when a bartender screws up they aren't quick to tell everyone!
A little beer smell goes a long way so I doubt that everything in the hole is beer.
I doubt that everything in the hole is beer.
Like I said, when you have too much beer you've got to get rid of it somewhere.
lol
I think it could have happened with the best of intentions. The tube from the overflow tray just dangled down to the floor drain and it could have looked right in the passageway with the other line.
We have eliminated that possibly with a new clamped tube.