I am new to Breaktime, but old to constrution…started in 1972 framing and gone on the become a custom homebuilder. I have been a remodeler / additions GC, done backyard improvements (decks, etc.), had a spin-off landscape and pool company and at one time had 20 employees doing lots of “in house” hands on construction.
My wife and I now run the company, sub most of the work and concentrate on custom homebuildng. www.brotherscustomworks.com
I want the BT Crew to know that from my viewpoint and experience level I am generally impressed with the responses to various post. This gives me an idea on solving issues when dealing with HOs.
All experienced contractors know that there are “issues” with Homeowners, and I was thinking it would be nice to be able to direct them to Breaktime for professional input. In this case, it would important that responses be made by well qulaified professionals who could give a confident opinion. The HO could soliciate info and opinions thru BT via the ease of the internet.
If anyone has time and considers themselves qualified to comment….chime in on the following actual events. Note, these are exemplory resolved issues and several years old. What would be your response to the HO if they posted …not the builder. I realize some issues could not be solved becasue of regional differances.
Examples:
1. I was building a custom home. We installed OSB roof decking. After the framer installed the roof deck it rained off and on for two days. After the weather cleared we allowed the OSB to dry, and installed the roof. Upon her site visit, the HO said she could not believe we installed the roofing and had expected we would have replaced the decking due to the rain. After installing the roof, she wanted the roof and deck replaced, becasue of rain damaged decking.
The OSB rep and my engineer told the HO that the decking was not ruined and designed to endure some rain conditions during construction. The HO said the engineer and OSB rep were in “kahoots” with me and the issue continued. It finally was resolved when she talked with other builders.
2. For those GCs/ Builder who know about Homeowner allowances. I purchased and installed 4 bathtubs and 5 shower valves (HO has picked out the fixtures). When I invoiced against the bank Plumbig Fixture Allowance for those plumbing fixtures, the Homeowner refused to allow the bank draw, telling me that the shower valves and tubs were not plumbing fixtures. His opinion was that these items were “built-in” and should be a part of my base cost…not charged against the plumbing fixture allowance.
He never directly paid for the items, but his upgrades and extras from that point on we manupulated to cover these plumbing fixure allowance items.
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime.
Your experience and tenure in construction closely resemble my own, though you may be smarter and better-looking, I don't know.
I also am mostly impressed with the comments and advice given in this forum as well as the way the group dynamic works: If someone who is not qualified answers, or someone answers incorrectly, the group rallies to set the apple cart upright. Almost always a good solution to the problem is arrived at.
I respect a great many of the posters here very much, including many who are not construction professionals. I feel that I have learned a great deal by frequenting here.
As to your proposal that Breaktime become the go-to arbitrator for conflicts between Contractors and Homeowners, I don't feel that this can work 'officially'.
I believe that it probably already works 'unofficially', as in a builder might tell a homeowner to get online and ask here to see what the response might be. I feel that this forum provides for that as it exists now, without being perceived as being a mouthpiece for the professional in disputes with owners.
The examples of conflicts you have provided are familiar to me, and to many of the posters here. I would say that the solutions portrayed also are familiar. In the first example, having this forum as a reference, not a dispute board, would probaly have eased this person's concerns, provided they felt that they were getting real, honest answers.
In the second example, there was probably no way this person would ever see the situation any other way. That's coming from my experience.
Again, welcome to Breaktime, please add your voice, as I am sure you have a lot of exerience to share.
JW Heck
The heck, you say?
Thanks JW.
I certainly do agree with you. It was my thought that BT responses to an HO's inquiry might offer some comfort to HOs, and resolve problems before they went further.
I did not see it as an "official" soultion, taking the place of arbritation, mediation, or court. I simply wanted to test the waters before instucting one of my HOs to sign up and post to BT.
We do not have any post addressing the situations yet, but it seems to me that the right answers would have settled both of these issues.
Be advised that while your idea has merit in an ideal situation, BT is not easy to figure out. I don't mean navigating the discussions, tho that is certainly true to the new folks. I'm thinking the answers to queeries can come from all over the spectrum. You've got well meaning DIY's answering questions of which they have limited knowledge, i.e it worked for them once. You've also got members here who are new to the business and their experience might also be limited. I guess what I'm trying to say is you'll get responses which might further cloud the issue.
We've had over the years many homowners that have quizzed the board on a myriad bunch of topics. Some were rcvd' well and others were jumped on and vice versa. I agree, this is still the place to get answers, but don't be surprised with the outcome.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Perhaps you recall that I once propsosed a similar arbitration panel here, but IO think I am shying away from that. In the few instances where both parties have presented their cases here, much bickering resulted in spite of all the good information, knowledge, and experience represented here. Sometimes resolution is forthcoming and sometimes not.My sense is that there has never been full portrayeal of all information on both sides of the situation. There could be a multitude of reasons including that some people are unable to present a good case for their own thinking
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There could be a multitude of reasons including that some people are unable to present a good case for their own thinking
Furthermore, you never know when politics will enter in the thread and the entire mess will go flaming down!
blue
I simply feel that the process is inherently unworkable here as a structured panel.
Can you imagine the fuss just selecting the arbitrators?
I do think that it works fairly well in a free-wheeling, group dynamic sort of way.
But, as always, you need to be able to seperate the wheat from the chaf.The heck, you say?
Ahh....perhaps one approach would be to submit the issue without client knowledge and filter the responses...print the professional and (excuse me) favorable responses and submit to the HO.
Of course my noted procedure in the original post was to call the OSB rep and my engineer...when they told her she had no problem.....the HO said we were all in "Kahoots". Clients may think this is just a network of good ole boys taking up for each other.
Where did that word come from ("Kahoots")?
I do believe in doing things right, and you would think by this you could avoid most issues, but clients can come up with strange ideas....you guys know we need all the help we can get.
My custom home spec sheet, general conditions statements and policies are growing all the time. Tubs and shower valves are now clearly listed as plumbing fixtures requiring a customer selection per the allowance.
I have added statements lately regarding a client who used the Garage to store allowance items they purchased, several weeks prior to our need for the items. Some speakers and 2 ceiling fans were stolen. The client required that I pay for the items. OK, but the next contract stipulates that no storage can occur, and items should not be delivered prior to our call for the items.
Edited 11/10/2005 5:57 pm ET by txlandlord
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990701
Communication is the key, as you well know. Many times I thought that had communicated myself well, only to find that the other party didn't hear/understand a word I said. It happens more often with hired help than with owners.
This is why our spec lists are growing.
In the case of the OSB, if you have code enforcement in your area, perhaps you could have given the owner the building official's phone number.
Something else you know: Some folks are looking for every loophole.
If this board has a value in these circumstances, I think it is to provide ideas on how to handle these incidents locally.The heck, you say?
It'll be intereesting to read what others have to say, but I'm starting from here.
First, welcome to BT. I have been impressed with you, you4r advice, and your background and position and how you have come to it form what little I know.
OSB - I hate it and will not use it. No need to go into the details why except that one is that rain will swell the edges and make it telegraphg through the shingles. Futrthermore, I always make the best attempt to dry in any sheathing and decking the samer day it is laid. I prefer Advantechto avoid the problems with moisture and osb.
Given all that, I have a tendency to side with your first client, but tempreed by the fact that I was not theere, and some OSB tolerates a small amt of moisture.
On the second item, I consider the valve bodies and faucets to be fixtures but not the tubs and shower units
seems like ai disafgree with your positions, if I understand them, but not to the point that I lose any respect for you. I also understand regional differences...
Now I'll read from th eother responders
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the input...your name and previous post carry good weight with me
I always make the best attempt to dry in any sheathing and decking the samer day it is laid.
"best attempt", certainly wonderful and ideal, but you and I both know this is not always possible...especially when working with a seperate crews...framer and roofer and large projects...our smallest home in the last 5 years had 70 squares
I prefer Advantechto avoid the problems with moisture and osb.
Not locally user friendly, but I'll look further...important....how do cost compare....if it is a better product and I can buy locally, perhaps I can offer it as an option....being that we produce no apparent problems it may be hard sell if it cost more....OSB / Tech Shield is an easy sell upgrade here in TX
rain will swell the edges and make it telegraphg through the shinglesOn the second item,
OSB, the sheathing / decking of choice here in TX...we have never had any problems with swelling edges or telegraphing...of course we get dried in as fast as possible and always use plywood clips for proper spacing and at least a 30 year architectural shingle.
I consider the valve bodies and faucets to be fixtures but not the tubs and shower units
considering the selection of tubs and shower units (ours shower units are usually framed and tiled or covered with cultured marble) avaliable, an allowance for HO"S selection is the safetest procedure when building custom homes, unless the selection can be made on the front end of a contract and specified
seems like I disafgree with your positions
no problem, that is why I am testing the waters before sending clients
I agree with Piffin that the foggy presentation of disputes is what makes it so difficult to get accurate advice on this forum. That doesn't hurt so much when people are looking for information because posters give a range of advice that covers many related problems. It's not so great for resolving a dispute.
It should be instructive to homeowners that you were able to recover your loss on the bathroom fixtures (that's what we call them too) by massaging the changes. Once you feel that someone is taking advantage of you, the gloves come off. And for the guy that is treating you well, there isn't much that you won't do for him.
Those are two interesting examples.
On the first, I would rely on written documentation from the OSB manufacturer. If they say in writing that it can tolerate the amount of rain that it got, then it's OK. Everything has manufacturer's instructions these days, including sheets of OSB.
On the second, I would rely on written documentation from the contract. If I use a fixture allowance in a contract it specifically names every item that is part of the allowance. If a tub or a shower valve is part of it, it says so. Leave anything out and you risk a confrontation with the client.
Using BT as a mediation forum might work, depending on who your client is. They might be inclined to see all of us in cahoots with each other, because I'm definitely going to back you up most of the time, unless you're way out there.
hey, tex.. i've never used osb in my life.. it was always T&G fir 3/4 ply for subfloor, 5/8 ply for roofs and 1/2 ply for walls
then along came Advantech .. now the only ply is use is the 1/2" for walls
on the allowance issue... a laundry list like dave uses is part of our spec and contract
it avoids the expert testimony of the know-it-all-brother-in-law who once worked on a framing crew
a formal "can this marriage be saved" forum ?... hah, hah,hah... sure, why not.. be good for laughs.. just don't expect any definitive answers....
the homeowner looking for vaseline wanders in from time to time.. depending on their approach , they usually get treated pretty good.. others seem to get what they deserveMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Personally, I would be more than a little nervous having a client speak with a group such as what we have here at Breaktime. Not that there isn't good information, even consistently great information from the heavy hitters, but there are also the jabs, sneers, snickers, and other not so socially acceptable behaviors.
If the homeowner can spend the time here to make sense out of the pack then it would be good and educational. Taken out of context however, we could turn off your client or give them the wrong idea about an issue to your detriment.
What I would predict as the most common problem would be the trappings of "best practices." Even within the luxury home market, few are built from foundation to shingles with the absolute best practices (most durable, best looking results, etc.). Costs can skyrocket over more typical building methods. While I personally enjoy building with best practices and the projects with pockets deep enough for a lot of it are the most rewarding, they are still a subset of high-end building. No matter what your client would ask us, we might be suggesting a best practice on an item for which they have only contracted for a middle of the road result. You would understand this, we would understand this, but your client might think you're being cheap, when that's exactly what they've paid for.
Having said that and stretching to the point of over generalizing, many of the best clients are intelligent, computer savey, and quite able to deal with the ideocincricy of groups such as Breaktime. Of course, many of the worst clients misunderstand everything from anyone.
Perhaps another avenue for conflict resolution might be a local builders association with a good conflict resolution procedure. Locally we have one such organization that reviews clients' grievances and acts as a neutral and informed third party. The results have been good and clients have been impressed with the impartiality. Of course any grievance committee is only as good as those involved in it, so mileage will vary.
Somewhat unrelated, a subscription to FHB is a way to show clients neat stuff and remind them of you when their project is over each time an issue arrives in the mailbox.
Cheers,
Don
Theres a lot of experience here . I mean a bunch your self included. But there are people who are pros at things you are not too { BUNCHES OF DIFFERENT THINGS}. Its hard sometimes to find the bottom of the well.
I agree with Calvin mostly. Its unbelieveable the responses you will get plus and minus. Then you might get one heck of a response the first week in December and they might leave it alone if it was ran the second week . Unless you have been here for a long time you wont know whose QAULIFIED. Being here every day still brings in surprizes of knowlege as we are growing .
As Mike says sure for laughs but be careful what you ask for because it can blow up. Joe Perfect and Bill Expert responds but the other 20 are not in that expertise mebbe . How will you know? More importantly your customer wont . Thats the biggest problem.
Tim
You guys are a blast....great post.
I really do not have problems frequently. This is probably why I remember these other events so well.......
Mooney, where is River Valley? I am from Memphis, and spent some good times in the Ozarks. Been tubing and canoeing on the White River and learned to waterski (1966) at Heber Springs.
I have been to Eureka Springs and the folk festival at Mountain Home. We recently sold a lot we owned at Hot Springs Village, and I have a friend who owns a condo on Lake Hamilton.
Nice country...beautiful mountains, lakes and rivers.
Im below most all you mentioned except Hot Springs Village. Im on I-40 on the Arkansas River . That was built running beside more or less state hwy 64. I live in Clarksville . 100 miles West of Little Rock , 60 mile East of Ft Smith . 5 hrs from Memphis all on I-40. Eureka Springs is a hop and a several curves , North on US scenic route hwy 21 that starts here . The Ozarks are all above us North, The Ozarks National Forrest.
Tim