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Dan,
Tell the G.C. about the offer of additional work you recieved from his cuctomer.
Observe his reaction.
If he’s sharp he will give this one up to you as a perk and use you differently ( Better ) in the future.
I am a G.C. and if one of my clients was impressed enough with one my guys to offer him side work it would tell me that this man is a potential supervisor or crew chief.
Having a client like one of my work hands or sub-contractors is never a bad thing.
If the customer tries to cut me out or allows a sub to cut me out it is my problem for at that point I have lost control of the relationship.
Remember good communication is the key in all relationships.
Of course that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Steve
Replies
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O.k,
He wants me to give him an estimate on framing an addition, doing the trim and cabinets. I tell him if I'm going to frame it, I want to do the footings and snap square lines for his foundation stooges.
He "accepts" my estimates.
I'm stripping the footings and snapping the lines when he inquires as to where I'm getting the lumber for the framing. "At the place around the corner, they're closest."
He says he has a salesman he likes to go through there, I say give me his name, and before I know it he's gotten a materials list from me and is going to order the lumber.
When I list a price on an estimate, I list "Labor and Overhead", "Materials", and "Total Estimate".
Inside of Materials I count lumber and fasteners as well as job-specific overhead type charges -- particular drill bits, saw blades, tool rentals etc.
I had budgeted in the cost of renting a transit for a week to make sure I was going to get the footing at the right height for his block crew.
Cost $120
I found a used David White for $150 including tripod. Since I had most of that already budgeted into my estimate, I didn't mind shelling out the cash.
Now, he's got the materials order and I'm left wondering how exactly to recoup this particular loss.
He agreed to my price right?
After he agrees to a deal, he can't change it right?
I always give people the benefit of the doubt, but if I were a pessimint, I might read the situation as he either doesn't trust me or is trying to chisel my price down.
I don't like either.
I've got the walls done and half the ceiling.
"Half?" you ask...
The order's wrong. Not what I specified.
(also, the plan called for a 12" block bottom course with 8" blocks on top to provide a brick ledge. They laid all eight inch blocks. I pointed out the error. They laid a four inch course along the outside of the perimeter. This changed all my 12 footers to 12' 4 inchers and therefore 14 footers...)
He's out of town for a long weekend, so he can't handle the lumber that I need in order to keep my guy busy. Not to mention forgetting to get me my draw to pay my guy.
Other than that, he's not so bad...
How would you guys handle this?
Dan
*Dan,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*First bit of advice is not to "itemize an estimate". Always give the price for total job, materials and labor for $X.XX. I would basically stick to the same price although if he got a better deal on lumber than you could have, you may want to kick back that difference to him. The issue of needing 14 footers instead of 12 is your call. You may want to charge him the extra but chances are pretty good that it doesn't amount to a whole heck of a lot more outta your pocket and a little freebie like that can keep you in business with this GC if he's a decent guy.Most importantly is giving a job price and not the itemized price. This way you might make out a little better than you thought in one area while losing a little in another area and it all evens out (hopefully). Nonetheless, there is no one penny picking over your estimate for what should be less. I've yet to have a customer offer more money to compensate my underestimating what materials cost.Pete Draganic
*When I do work for another GC, I never supply the material. That way, I don't have to worry about cost overruns or increases, paper work, takeoffs,and so on. I let him worry about getting the material on the job. If I can't work because there is no material on the job, I backcharge him for my crews wasted time. As for the foundation being wrong, that would void my contract. Like you, if I'm framing, I like to at least oversee the foundation. I'm am on very good terms with the gcs I deal with, and they usually tell the supplier to get me what I need. If I need 50 studs, I go get them and charge them to his account, and charge him for the time to take care of his job. As for the money, I would give him the benefit of the dought once. After that, work would stop and things would get heated. I've never had a problem doing business this way and always treat my subs in the same manner. Sub work is not the norm for me though. If I depended on it for all my income instead of fill in, I might consider bidding material and labor.
*As I was typing my question I was praying that you wouldn't shred me for it's lengthiness...:)A couple of more insights:I'm the first good carpentry sub he's found. All of his past jobs look like dogsh*t. But he finds a way to make it "right" with the customer -- shodily install a french door for free...He really seems to want to do a good job, and usually does pay on time. Although it always sounds like this:He: "So what do I owe you? A thousand?"Me: "Ummm, I think it's eleven hundred."He: "Oh"Dan
*Dan,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Dan,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*ok Dan, man, I don't like game playin', and you make it sound like this guy plays a lot of games. Just from the sound of it, I know I wouldn't want to do business with this guy.I will try to keep emotion out of it though, and here's some specifics I don't like,1. you say all his previous jobs look bad. You are not the only one who will draw this conclusion. How do you think it will reflect on you (as I recall, you are trying to build a reputation in a new market) when folks know you worked for this guy? How will this reflect on you when you talk to some other GC about working for him?2. This thing about him taking your materials list doesn't set well with me. Why would he do that with good intentions? If it was part of your agreement that you provide materials, and he wanted to help by pointing you towards his sales guy, fine. It should have stopped there. Maybe you can find other subs he has used and ask them about this. This could be an old trick with this guy. Some buisness people actually ENJOY figuring ways to save 1% here and shave 1% there.He definately owes you the cost of the level rental. The 30.00 you decided to pay extra, so that's on you. (but you own the tool, smart)The easiest question in your post(s) is about the floor joists. If you weren''t responsible for the block, then you aren't responsible for the mistake. He owes you the amount extra for the longer joists. It is his job to get this back from the block sub, who made the mistake, not from you. To me, this would be the acid test with this guy. If he sees this as reasonable and fair, I would then consider the other problems. If he balks, or you get a feeling he doesn't like it, fulfill your obligation on this job and scratch this clown off your list. There are straight shooters out there who need good help like you. It is hard to see them if your nose is to the grindstone for somebody who doesn't have the same code of business as you. Square dealin'. 'nough said. - yb
*Next time you talk to the guy bring up the fact that you had the level rental in with the materials and ask him for the money,his answer will probably let you know if he plans to honor your contract or try to change things in his favor. All of the little things add up quickly and soon youre working for free. Maybe theres a reason why he cant get good subs, and even if you are the best he has, some guys just figure that every dollar that he doesnt pay you is a dollar in his pocket even if it causes him to lose you as a sub. A lot of guys are only in it for the quick money and dont care about the long term.Almost every builder i know of has been in bankruptcy at least once.
*Thanks for the advice fellas,My girlfriend said it pretty well yestersday too:"Next time someone asks me for references, God damnit I'm asking for theirs..." She wants me to string this guy up and flog him. I reckon what I'll do is ask him point blank why he took over the materials order. Then explain to him that the number included transit rental, time spent figuring out exactly what we needed and my time for dealing with returns and and misc pickups.Now that the order's wrong, I've spent more time (on site) re-calculating what I need, wondering what the $%#&? I have and how to keep my helper busy while I cuss softly...As it turned out, my guy lost a day of work (yesterday) and he has already planned on Monday off for the Ozzy Osborn Festival. (Yeesh!) Makes for a nice weekend, but a poor paycheck.I guess I'll back charge GC and pass along the cash to my headbanger to keep him happy.As for the past crappy jobs GC's done,There was a stairway that his stooges built in the home of a minor Country music star. He contracted my girlfriend to paint the interior. I helped her on a couple of days and got to see the stairway. I won't go into the details, but thought to myself "Self, don't ever be associated with this stairway. If Dolly Parton comes over here for tequilla shooters and asks who built it and my name comes up I'll never get to work for her (and after all, that's my biggest reason for being here).A couple of weeks later while I'm pouring the footings he says "I guess I'll need you to go fix that stairway for me."My reply: " "after a little begging, I agree to go over and have a more profesional look at it. "Ok it'll take about a day to fix the cosmetic stuff" I say. I fix it up nice and the minor country star is as happy as a fly in a cow pasture and asks me for a business card.I told him that if he wants me to do any work he should contact the GC because I consider GCs to be the same as customers, and I don't want my customers unhappy. I don't want GC to think I'm going behind his back and stealing clients either.He says, it would just be for little things like building a shelf, etc. I give him a few cards (hopefully he'll give one to Dolly) and tell him little things are fine. Why would he call a general contractor do build a shelf?Let me re-state that He was extremely happy with my work and was extremely un-impressed with GC's work.Also my girlfriend was called to come fix an astounding (-ly bad) interior paint job. The client was affectionately known as the Devil Lady. The Devil Lady loved Tinsley's work, and wanted a card. She gave her one and GC got all out of joint. Was this wrong? Tinsley's a painter. Why should someone call a GC for an interior paint job? Or exterior for that matter.This brings me to my other question. Regarding loyalty.If a client is exposed to poor workmanship by a GC and his (her) subs, but who finally brings in a pro who'll do a bang up job and not mess up the house, is it wrong for the two (pro and client) to do business in the future (without the GC involved)?Now, if country singer calls me to build that addition he was mumbeling about, I would say call GC and request that I do the work.If a friend of country singer asks him if he knows a good carpenter, and my name comes up, am I backstabbing for taking the work?Is it bad for Tinsley to give out a card when a client is happy? What do you generals think?What do you subs think?What do you homeowners think?Perhaps this should be moved into the business folder...Dolly, if you're reading this, please e-mail me.Thanks,Dan
*Dan,real hard question but if you bring me to work at a client's house as your helper and the client asks me to come next week and do some side work.Am I wrong if I go?You tell me, you're not a GC does that make a diference?Vince
*Vince,"...client asks me to come next week and do some side work. Am I wrong if I go?"It would depend on the nature of the work wouldn't it?I'm subbing myself out right now, but fully intend to have a complete small volume construction business going as soon as I can put all the pieces together.But I don't think it should make a difference. The right answer is the one that pleases everyone.What exactly is it?Dan
*Dan,My answer has to be that I'd pass on the work. You bring me to a job and It's your customer period.Vince
*Dan,Tell the G.C. about the offer of additional work you recieved from his cuctomer.Observe his reaction.If he's sharp he will give this one up to you as a perk and use you differently ( Better ) in the future.I am a G.C. and if one of my clients was impressed enough with one my guys to offer him side work it would tell me that this man is a potential supervisor or crew chief.Having a client like one of my work hands or sub-contractors is never a bad thing.If the customer tries to cut me out or allows a sub to cut me out it is my problem for at that point I have lost control of the relationship.Remember good communication is the key in all relationships.Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Steve
*Maybe I should tell the client to call the GC and get my number for little jobs that don't require a GC...No?Honestly, I wouldn't be bummed if you and I went to build a deck and the client asked you to come back and rake the lawn...
*That is a tough one. Ive been on both sides and as far as the painting goes, if the G.C. brought her on the job and was making any money off of the painting, or the previous painting, then I believe all contact should be through him. If you are going to sub then I think you have to be loyal and honest to the G.C.. You would be taking a job that you didnt really earn because someone else brought you there as a sub. It is ultimately the contractors fault for not keeping the customer happy and he should expect to lose them, but not to his own sub even if he deserves it. I think it would be best to either accept the fact that this situation will come up over and over again if you work for this guy and not give out your card to his customers, or get away from him after the first time it happens. That seems the most honest to me, but its a judgement call
*Dan, if the minor music star is talking to you about an addition, what's the problem with taking it on ( Dolly could be at the addition warming)? Just cause this GC built his house doesn't mean he has to use him for ever, plus, if the GC sucks, why would he want to use him again. You fixed the stairs, not the GC. Maybe I'm confused, but this guy does not seem like the type to command any kind of loyalty, i.e. the materials thing. And besides, will he introduce you to Dolly?
*I'm a bit confused too Billy.He seems like a good guy. He seems like he wants to do quality work and is very happy that he met me.Although he also seems less than honest all the time. It seems like if the customer wants a shelf, GC would be being petty by wanting a piece of it, but he wouldn't be being petty over an addition. But he did a crappy job on the stairs right? why would the customer want to hire him for an addition? If I stay "loyal" to GC, and don't accept work from the customer, isn't the customer getting screwed? Doesn't GC have to earn my loyalty and respect?I don't mean to sound like a prick, I just want to do unta others...Dan
*Dan, it sounds like this guy is doing unto you, but not in the intended spirit of the the saw.You sound like you have the right attitude. I know that in the past, when I have felt uncomfortable about something and did it anyhow (or let it be done to me), I paid for it. A conscience is a wonderful thing.Sitting on my hands so I don't get in trouble, BB Typing with my nose
*Dan - how about you take the GC out for a brew and talk this over with him. Tell him you want to be up front about things, and as opportunities arise, what does he feel is fair to everyone? Are you thinking of him as an employer or as someone you do business with? At some point what is in your best interests and what is in his are not going to be the same. Level with the guy. - yb
*I agree.Communication is always the best idea.At least it's the best first step.I'm also a strong advocate of instinct, but I'm getting mixed signals...I hate it when that happens.Typing with your nose Bucksnort?
*Dan,the real question is who needs who more?Does G.C. need you more than you need him? If so you can do as you please.You already plan on a life as a G.C. yourself and when that happens you will be in direct competition with this guy anyhowI sub out work to a local guy who is fairly well known and respected in my trade.We both advertise independently and have completly seperate businesses.In fact he does 6 times the volume of work I do.However when he does a job for me he undderstands that it is MY job and all future work referred from that job is MY job.He also knows he will be getting that increased work.Neither of us really needs the other but we both enjoy the increased money we are able to make through cooperation.As a result we both bend over backwards to treat each other more than fairly.Good Luck,Stephen
*Stephen,Paragraph 1: Good point. Supply and demand.Paragraph 2: A perfect (or nearly so) working relationship. I suppose a perfect relationship would have beer included...Again, Country singer asked me to maybe come back and put up a shelf in the closet as his wife is pregnant and he's not too handy with a hammer... I'm not talking about trying to steal an addition... In fact they'll need to call GC in order to get me to do their addition and I told them that.Thanks,Dan
*Just an opinion here but you don't seem to be benefiting in any way by your association with this guy. He's not paying you on time so you can pay your guy, he may be trying to screw you out of money on the materials after you came to an understanding, on the quality thing there is often guilt by association (work for a hacker, get identified as a hacker by the non-hackers), and he's got you second guessing opportunities that come your way from your own efforts. I've been burned by being too loyal to guys I thought were okay. What are you getting out of this relationship besides your wage? You're a sub, not an employee. How close are you to going out on your own?
*Dan, you are asking the right questions if you are concerned about your reputation. You presented yourself well to the customer when you told them to call the gc. Now you have to back up your word with the same actions.The gc was having trouble getting quality subs, but now he has you. Or does he?I would tell the customer that he must contact the gc for all jobs, regardless of size. I would also inform the gc that the customer has additional needs and wants you to do the work. I would then tell the gc that your price is gone up, due to the comparisons of your work to the previous subs work.The gc then has the option of using you for the shelf, at your price, and biling the star for the proper fee.You will be in a win win situation. You get your price, the gc gets his share, the star gets the quality work that he desires.If the gc trys to bring in his wannabees, the star will cease to use him.If the gc doesn't like your new pricestructure, you will be free to contact the star directly.Be a good sub, and stay loyal. Create a working partnership that will last a lifetime. It will pay off.If you still want to be a gc, don't steal your current clients customers Find your own, and do both.Blue
*Blue,Bravo!! Spoken like an honest man and an ethical sub.Vince
*Adrian,Thanks for looking after my interests. Normaly he writes a check as soon as I give him a bill. This time he spaced out my weekly check and when I discovered he was gone for the llooonnnggg weekend on top of the lumber order being screwed up, I was a little bit extra pissed.The materials money bothers me. I'm going to talk to him about that. In depth.As far as my reputation goes (in relation to his association) I'm not sure. He is a small time outfit, so he doesn't have a recognizable name really. I'm not sure I'd want to brag about doing work for him, but since I make friends with the clients, I'd use them as references with no hesitation at all. That is unless there's a "worst case scenario" in which he tells the clients that the delay in construction was due to my screw ups. This, of course, would result in some serious flogging.From my experiences with "Dr Hell" (from previous posts) I've decided to trust my instincts to the letter. My instincts aren't too strong either way here. I guess that means that I should view this as a probable short-term relationship."What are you getting out of this relationship besides your wage? You're a sub, not an employee." I'm charging a wage that is more than I ever got as a residential framer. I gave myself a raise from the most I ever made and then added an amount that I figure is overhead (ratio of what I spent to what I made last year working for ME). There's my round number for labor. I add 10% to labor and materials combined and call this an Oops factor. Every once in a while I make a mistake. (Like rescuing that springer spaniel in Oregon...) To this I add 10% for profit. I'm usually real close on my estimates for how long it'll take and how many sticks, maybe I'm a little optimistic in my labor estimates, but not much. I'm usually happy at the end of a project and so is the customer. Right now I'm trying to build a customer base (reference web) as I'm new here, so maybe my rate is a little low. The quality is high though. The references so far are excellent. "How close are you to going out on your own?"Heck, all I need is a brand new pickup, a four-foot level with gun rack and a black lab isn't it?Seriously though, I'm this close.I just need to pay a bunch of money to take their test, and get some standard contractual forms together. Maybe refine my bookkeeping a bit... Pour over my notes from past projects... Learn a bit more about insulation/energy/venting... Study Gene's book... I guess I have to buy it first... NOT have that next beer...I'm close. Six months to a year.I guess we'll see what happens after I have my chat with him...After this wonderful weekend on the lake (Ol' Hickory Lake) with inflatable margaritas and pitchers of lawn chairs, I'm not nearly as miffed as I was on thursday. I've reasoned that I'm going to charge him for the day lost and feed my Ozzy Fan... After our discussion we should have a good understanding. If not, his loss.Thanks for waking me from my happy stupor,Dan
*Blue,I was waiting for you on this one as I know you enjoy your livelihood as a subcontractor.And I agree with what you have to say.Don't gripe about my loyalty until I've proven it.In keeping with my character, I won't distrust anyone until I have a reason to.We're gonna have a chat. I'll bring up the (minor) star's request for a shelf (and ultimately an addition which I'll probably design) and see if he blinks. I think he should just be happy that the customer likes my work as Steve points out.Hey, who's your pick now? The bruins and the wings are out... Dan
*DanColorado all the way, they've got more Canadians, and they used to be the Quebec Nordiques. . .. like shootin fish. . . -pm
*Dan - just as an aside, tell your helper that a customer recently hired me to build him a display case for a guitar autographed by...Ozzy. That was after he was happy with the case I built for his 6 foot boa constrictor...no kidden'. I've got photos of both and the snake makes my blood run cold every time I see it. "...oh my, he's up to my thigh..." (more Shel Silverstein) - yb
*Were not discussing hockey any more! Err, okay...Dallas. No Colorado.I really didn't think you are disloyal, just trying to show how it appears.Most gc's will tell you to do the small stuff direct. They usually don't have the type of aggreement that makes it profitable, or desireable to do a simple shelf. Blue
*I'll wager a few "dog bones" on the Sabers.
Joseph FuscoView Image
*San Jose Sharks! Well, next year anyway.
*WWWWHHHHHHOOOOOAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!Goin out on a limb...Toronto looked weak tonight (as they did against Philly and Pitt).Hasek looks great, but his team isn't nearly as powerful offensively as...Dallas is a good looking team, but they don't seem to be able to really pull the trigger when the sh*t hits the fan. Eddie the eagle can be awsome. He can also be mediocre. Much like...Hall of famer Roy. Awsome goaltender, but can get into bad moods that lose games. Sometimes takes stupid chances. Colorado has the most scoring potential, but everyone has a goaltender capable of stealing a Stanley Cup.My pick: The Fans.Who cares who wins? My team's out!
*Go Predators!Sharks, yeesh...
*So he calls, and we have a chat.He's very sorry everything screwed up as soon as it left my hands and went into his. He's gonna do whatever it takes to keep me happy. He's going to re-imburse me for the transit. And my time for all the messing around.He's going to let me deal with all lumber orders in the future. He wants to keep good communication lines open.I no longer have a question. Thanks for all-of-y'all's input,Dan
*Could you post the photos?"...oh my, he's up to my thigh..."OK i'll bite. What's it from?Dan
*Dan - man...if you only knew how inept I am with this computer...we don't have a scanner, which I'm assuming is how you "input" stuff. But I can sure bring them to the Slap Fest in September. That friggin' snake is creepy - white - as thick as your arm - will only eat live animals, I guess fairly large ones, but never really wanted to know the details. If you e mail me your address, I could send you copies. That line is from "I'm being swallowed by a Boa Constrictor". It is in the book "Where the Sidewalk Ends" (couldn't find our copy, we might have passed it down to nephews and nieces). Ask Patrick M., he has read from the book online, he could read it to us. There is a good one too about the girl "who would not take the garbage out" too.Glad things worked out with your colleage. - yb
*Dan man & Y.Bi Fer yer dinin' an' dancin pleasureb Boa Constrictor by Shel SilversteinOh, I'm being eatenBy a boa constrictor,A boa constrictor,A boa constrictor,I'm being eaten by a boa constrictor, And I don't like it - one bit.Well what do you know?It's nibblin my toe.Oh, gee,It's up to my knee.Oh my,It's up to my thigh.Oh, fiddle,It's up to my middle.Oh, heckIt's up to my kneck.Oh, dread,It's upmmmmmmmmmmfffffffffff.....i Still lookin for the other one. . . later ?-pm
*It seems to me I have heard that one before.Thanks for digging it up Patrick. You read very well.Dan