Hey Guys!!
Haven’t been around these parts in a long time. Hope everyone has been doing well.
I’ve been working on my new workshop. It’s a 28’x44′ building where I intend to do the timber framing for our new house. I’m getting bids on installing the meter and main panel, and the numbers are much higher than I expected.
First, let me describe the layout here. I’m planning on only one electrical feed to serve both the shop and the house, for cost reasons. Since the shop will exist for a year before the house is weathered in, that feed has to go through the workshop.
I’m planning on 400 amps of total service – 150 amps for the shop and 250 amps for the house. So, I asked for bids on a 400 amp meter base and a 400 amp main panel with a 250 amp disconnect for the circuit that will feed the house panel.
For just the meter and main panel, my only quote so far is $4,100. That seems sky-high to me.
At the same time, I recognize that the 400 amp main panel is a cost driver. A little Google work tells me that a 400 amp meter socket with twin 200 amp boxes ought to cost around $600-$800.
So, here are my questions…
1. Am I wrong, or is this $4,100 quote excessive?
2. Should I be content with 200-amp service to a 3600 sq ft house with geothermal heat pump and gas appliances?
3. If twin 200’s are the way to go, approximately what should I expect to pay for the installation of just the meter, one 200-amp main panel, and one 200-amp disconnect?
Thanks!!
Jon
Replies
I can't really answer all of your questions, but once you get outside the 200 -225 amp range the pannels are expensive.
Duall 200 amp or dual 150 amp pannel are what are used on the mega-masonions. You can have upto 6 "main" disconnects as long as they are all grouped together.
Here is a chart for calculating demand. It works fine for the house.
For the shop you need to look at what the largest combination of equipment that you would be running at one time. I suspect that 150 is way more than you need.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/bh0019.asp
Thanks for the reply Bill.
A couple friends have suggested that 150 amps is overkill for the shop. I've got a table saw and planer that each will take a dedicate 20-amp 240 volt circuit. I plan on an air compressor that will require a similar circuit. Could be a 240-volt shaper in my future as well. Add in the 120-volt outlets and the lighting, and it seems to me that I'd be pushing the limits of a 100-amp box.
Your point is still accurate though - I need to detail the requirements for the shop circuits to better determine how much service is required there.
BTW, thought I'd attach of photo of my summer's work."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Looks good.But you are making a basic mistake in sizing the panels. You don't add up the size of each breaker.You look at the demand loads. In the case of the house the charts that I refered to give it. For the shop use NAMEPLATE current ratings, not breaker sizes.A 3ph TS is about 15 amps/240. Likewise for a dust collector.3ph is typically the power for the small commercial/large home shop TS, planners, shapers and the like. But some of the bigger stuff is 5 hp.I need to look it up, but 25 amps/240 should be about right.But you won't be running all of that at one time.So we have one big machine @25 amps.
A 3 hp dust collector @15 amps
Add an air compressor that has a slight leak and kicks in automatically so it might run will the other stuff is running. @15 ampsThat is 55 amps @240.Through in another 20 for an electric heater or some AC.100 amps is plenty.
My mistake. I did imply that I was doing a straight addition of the breakers, but that was not my intention.
In any case, I will continue down the path you've started me on - better defining the electrical demands of the shop.
BTW, I just got back from a trip to big electrical supply house near here. They priced out all the parts in my electrical quote at $1100. "Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
The point is that you will not run the tablesaw and planer at the same time. And even if you were to run them at the same time, it is not likely that they would be drawing the full 20 amps.
Bottomline, is you don't need to add up the total of all POTENTIAL usage to determine the size of teh panel.
Not an expert, but I think you are off on the wrong track.
Hope this helps.
I don't know where you are, but in Atlantic Canada, the price difference between a 200 A entrance / meter / entrance and a 400A is about $6000.00. That's the difference in price.
Stick with the combination of 200 amp panels.
Almost everything I have delt with above 200 amp in a main panel has to be built. That is everything is sold seperately. The tub, the insulators, the bus bars, the lugs, the breakers,....even the cover. It all has to be built and installed, then every knockout has to be drilled and punched. It is labor intensive as well as the material be in the commercial/industrial price range. $4100.00 is not far off for what you speced.
Stay with what is available for residential use and the price will come down.
Dave
If that was my shop it would have a lot more windows & some sky lights too.
Joe H
Joe,
I labored over the windows/skylights all summer. This shop is 30 miles from my current residence, and isolated from the neighboring houses. I've already had several things stolen and have had a couple "parties".(might not have been so bad if they had invited me!!) So security was a concern.
I was also worried about solar gain on the west-facing gable end, which is what is showing in that picture.
I do have a row of windows along the south side. (I sized the eave overhang to shade them from the summer sun) I also ordered all three garage doors with thermopane windows. I still have the opportunity to cut in a couple more windows if I decide to.
The skylights were something I considered. After searching this forum, and working through the layout problems, I decided they weren't worth the trouble.
I definitely hear what you're saying. I would love for the place to be awash in natural light. Had to balance that against security and thermal effeciency though."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Life in the Country tradeoffs.
Joe H
all you need is a single 200 amp for both the shop and house, not two 200 but one 200
JJ,
Seriously, you can probably get by with 50 amps for your shop. Even with many machines running at once, they are not pulling peak load at the same time.
All I have in my shop is 60 amps off a 200 amp main, and I routinely have a 7.5 HP compressor (25 amp 250v) going along with several 3 HP (12 amp 250v) machines AND at the same time, am running a rotary third phase generator. I've never blown the main on the subpanel. Come to think of it, my welder (250 50amp) works just fine with the compressor going at the same time too.
WSJ
Square D has 400 amp raintite meter with two 200 amp main breakers installed that is very cost effective, real popular for farm services or shop and home here. A good elec contractor can negotiate these with both 200 mains for $500.00-600.00. Pop it where ever your utility connection fee is lowest and subfeed the buildings. Offer to buy and set the posts, drive the ground rods, whatever is allowed locally to keep your costs down.
You would be better off getting a 400A fused disconnect fed by a 400A bypass meter base and feeding two 200A panels. The meter base is not all that expensive.
You are looking a a premium for the 400A panel and gaining little for the extra price. IMHO panels larger than 200A only make sense when you have two or three 100A or larger loads. Preferably close to the panel itself.
Two 200A panels will allow you to put them in separate locations which can reduce the difficulty and length of cables used to wire the house. A possible savings.
As for the $400 to $800 equipment, you can figure on at least doubling that amount in conductors and ancillary parts, on a $4000 job that is not uncommon. Electrical work is labor intensive. A lot of this depends on the situation. A ditch put in by heavy equipment is a small fraction of the cost of one that has to be put in by hand.
Further just because you can buy the parts on line or at a supply house for a certain cost doesn't mean the contractor will use what you buy or price what he buys for you at cost. 100% mark up is about average.
IMO it breaks down like this:
$800 for panels
Times two for the pieces you left out = $1600
Double again for mark-up = $3200
Throw in another 25% for a high-labor task or two, permits, 'gimmes' for customer relations, your working around the bids shows your likely to use these up, and unexpected costs and you get to a round $4000. IMHO not out of the ball park.
Of course why would anyone with a house with gas appliances and geothermal heat pump would need 400A of power is beyond me.
Generally speaking take the total construction cost, outside of the electrical work, of a house and add 10% for electrical wiring. As a national average this true. In most cases it is about right.
Thanks for all your help.
FWIW, I wasn't suggesting that the electrician should sell me the parts for what I can buy them for at the supply center. It was just a data point.
I had to rough out what I thought the job would cost. I know that it doesn't really mean jack in the grand scheme, but it's something for me to try to keep my expectations in line.
Buying in bulk, I figure his cost is more like $800. The guy at the supply house was pretty thorough, so I doubt that he missed any big-ticket items. I was expecting a 50% markup, but I'll go with your 100% suggestion. Double that and I get to $1600. Add a day's labor, with insurance and overhead, (I was WAG'ing this at $150 an hour) and I was expecting something between $2500 and $3000.
I got back to the guy who gave the bid. I told him that it was more than I had expected and asked him to a) help me understand the cost by roughly breaking out parts and labor costs and b) suggest alternatives that might lower the cost.
Also, a couple of you have pointed out that my power allocations might be out of line. I admit that you're right,. But once you're beyond 200-amp total service, I see little gain in minimizing the amps.
I could probably get by with 150 amp to the house and 50 to the shop, but I'd be nervous about it. It just doesn't leave me much breathing room. I'd feel much better with 200 to the house and 75 or so to the shop. At that point, I think I need a 320/400 meter socket. That's how I got to the point of splitting 400 amps between the house and the shop.
I figured I'd need either one 400 amp main panel or a small panel for the shop and a disconnect for the house. I think you have all convinced me to limit the house to 200 amps - it just keeps everything more reasonably priced. But, I think I should size the shop panel generously. Even if I never use it, the extra cost of the panel and the main breaker for a 150 amp service seems pretty small.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on again. I've gotten some good info here.
Thanks to all of you!!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Not sure I will add a whole lot other than how my house is done.
I have a 200A meter with two 200A subpanels. I have a big workshop like yours. 5HP Tablesaw, 3HP jointer, 2HP dust collector, etc. and I have 3200 sq ft of living house. I have lots of gas appliances. Biggest electrical draw is probably my heat pump/AC unit. On occasion, I check the total current draw into my meter using my clamp meter and I've never been near 200A.
Could you use a setup like this? Just put a meter base in with breaker slots. Subpanel the workshop with a 200A 40/40 and subpanel the house with a 200A 40/40. I'd doubt you would ever blow the 200A main on the meter base and you would be using relatively low cost parts.
MERC
I could probably get by with 150 amp to the house and 50 to the shop, but I'd be nervous about it. It just doesn't leave me much breathing room. I'd feel much better with 200 to the house and 75 or so to the shop."
Maybe 4Lorn will chime in again here, but I was under the impression that you can have a 200 amp main panel (for your house) with a ???amp sub feeding off it through a breaker. At least that's how my shop is wired.
The sub-panel taps off a dedicated 60 amp breaker in the main panel, and the sub also has a 60 amp main breaker (disconnect), but the house still has 200 amp service.
WSJ
Here's a setup you might look into. This was added to a 1960's era house that underwent a complete remodel with 2000sqft addition, 3 car garage, and pool. There's an 800 amp main, a 400 amp, and several 100 amp breakers inside that monster.
Edited 11/18/2004 7:14 pm ET by NORMEL
Depending on the size of his geothermal unit, he could need 100 amp just for it. For a 5-6 ton unit it may require 50 amp for the compressor and 50 amp for the backup resistance heat. That is a fairly large chunk of the 200 amp service for the house isn't it?
Maybe having the load requirements for the HVAC system would be the place to start.
How would you handle the install if the above loads for the HVAC were indicated?
I have done one like it, but yeild to your greater experience on this one. I have another one to do for myself, so your suggestions can be a great help.
Dave
Not planning on having any backup resistance heat.
But once again, I haven't consulted with a professional to design the system. I WILL, I just haven't gotten it done yet."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I was also wonder about the this. I suspect that he will end up at or faily near 200 amps for the house (without resistive heat).And something like a spa would throw it well over.Now if the meter was at the house. then a pair of 200 amp panels with a 60-100 amp feed to a sub-panel in the shop would be normal.But I don't know if the oposite is true. That is a 400 amp meter at the shop feeding a 200 amp disconnect to the house and a 200 amp panel with a 100 feed to a 2nd sub-panel in the house.Seems to me that there is a limitation of a single circuit to another building, but I am not sure of the details and if it is appicable in this type of situation.But my guess (and that is all it is and based on limited experience) that he is going to be close to 200 amps at the house. And thus at this point he should make some allowance to go over that amount.
Without backup heat he may be ok with the 200 amp subpanel for the house. Depending on his climate that is.
What we did on a 5 ton GSHP was to use a 300 amp service drop and meter base. Instead of going directly to the main panel we went to a wiring trough and parralelled to a 200 amp distribution panel and a 100 amp service panel for the GSHP. All of this was preapproved by the local inspector before we started the job.
I am more than likely going to do a similar arrangment on my own house, but was hopeing 4LORN1 could offer some other choices. My limlted experience is in commercial work, where 99% of the jobs are engineered for us.
Dave
My understanding is that you can get 320 and 400 amp meter bases with dual lugs.You do the paralleling at the meter base. then just run 2 lines to 2 main panels.I now of one house that is setup like that. Don't know the internal details, but there is no trough. Just the meter on the outside and the 2 panels on the inside.
Thanks Bill.
I have used double lug connectios on buss bars in switch gear to feed subpanels, dissconnects and such, but didn't know a double lug meter base was available. I'll check it out with both the company I work for and the local POCO (REC).
Dave
If he only had a single 200A panel a single 100A load might be an issue. Depending on a few other factors. I don't remember where he is building off hand. If he is in Florida the number of days the backup heat would be expected to run very little. A lot less than if he is in Maine.Heat pumps have a point below which they lose efficiency. Geothermal heat input would also vary. Ground temps around here are something like 70F. Probably much lower farther north.Also many heat pumps demand two circuits, 50A seems common. As I understand it when the backup heat strips kick in the compressor cuts out. Effectively making it a single 50A load and an air handler blower to keep the air moving.Even in the worse possible case, two 50A circuits running at the same time, 100A running out of a 200A panel wouldn't necessarily be an issue. If I remember right he has gas appliances. This might also suggest gas backup heat effectively eliminating 50A of load. But even if not the remaining load would simply be lighting, the SABCs and any small accessory loads. Together unlikely to reach 100A.On the other hand a 400A meter, fused disconnect and a set of 200A panels would not be a major additional cost given the likely cost of the house. Sure running a 400 run, versus a 200A to the pole is going to cost. And 400A bypass, if the POCO doesn't cover it, is about twice as expensive.But it also has a lot of advantages. Like a greater number of circuits allowing greater control, shorter wire runs that might lower wiring costs and a lot of freedom in adding loads down the road. This can be very attractive given the likely life of the house and how frequently most are remodeled. A sound long-term investment.Adaptability made even easier if a few extra conduits are run out of the panels to accessable areas. A couple of conduits, like an 1-1/2' and a 3/4", run to the intended shop areas would take any load he is likely to want. Throw in a couple of 3/4" conduits to the outside, up into the attic and any place else you can think of and he is covered. With well placed conduits in place installing a 50A circuit for his MIL to park her motor home becomes about half as expensive. If he wants to run a 100A sub-panel in his shop it is simply a matter of pulling wires, setting a breaker and installing the panel he wants.More I think of it, with a nod of understanding that I am not paying for this, I think a set of 200A panels makes sense if there is any chance he may need the power. He says 3200 square feet but how many count toward calculations I don't know. I have seen smaller houses with larger services but some of those I think were more about bragging rights. Once installed they cost nothing and a lightly loaded panel tends to have fewer problems.
Thank for the explanation.
I knew I could count on you to give me more food for thought. As a carpenter converted to electrician, I often get trapped behind my limited experience.
Thanks for shaing your logic.
Dave
4Lorn1,
Great reply. Thank you.
I started this thread with a specific question, but I've let the conversation go in a direction that's a little unfair. There are way too many unknowns for you to know what my house power needs will be. I'm just in a situation where I have to allocate power to the house before I've done an accurate load calculation. That's my fault and my problem to deal with.
Still, since the can of worms has been opened, I'll try to satisfy curiosity by answering some questions that have come up.
I'm building in Baltimore, MD. Climate somewhere between Maine and Florida. I still have to get together with my HVAC guy to design my system and determine if there is the need for a supplemental heat source.
The house is approximately 3600 sq ft, not including the laundry room or the basement. Basement will be unfinished for now, but will be finished eventually. When that happens, I'll be close to 5000 sq ft. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that, which is why I only gave the sq footage of the main two floors before.
My POCO covers the cost of the feed from the pole to the meter. Don't know what the "bypass" is, so don't know if that's on me or on them.
The MIL definitely will be moving in, but hopefully not in a motorhome. Maybe that's a justification for such a large house..... but not really.
Great suggestion on the conduits for future use. Much easier to put them in now.
Thanks again for your input. Sorry I lowballed my house size. If I'm going to build a 5000 sq ft house, I have to learn to look people in the eye (metaphorically) and admit it.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Quote sounds excessive, but not being a sparky, I dunno.
I put in one 200-amp main to serve my house and (future) shop. House is 4300 square feet with gas stove, only major electric in the house will be dryer and possibly air conditioning. The shop will be fed with a 100 amp subpanel.
Right now I have a 100 amp main feeding a 60 amp sub for my shop. The shop is full of machines - 3 hp 220 v motor on table saw, 5 hp 220v on planer, 1 hp 220v on bandsaw, planning on another 3 to 5 hp 220v for dust collection, and lots of 120v smaller machines. No problems yet. Plus, my home office has an air conditioner, large engineering copier on its' own 20 amp circuit, plus three computers, printers, plotter, lights, etc. I snap a breaker occasionally, but not often enough to worry about it.
I think 400 amps is way overkill. I'd stick to a single 200 with a 100 amp sub for the shop and you should be all set.
It all comes down to having someone do a load calc. Electric heat is the killer, is there going to be any supplemental electric heat... electric water heater['s]...how are going to heat the shop....are you a doing any welding. 50-70amps is a lot of power if you aren't trying to do three things at once or heat a building. Here in the north central washington state power is relatively cheap, it's not uncommon for people to heat their driveways and sidewalks for snowmelting, but those days are rapidly coming to an end. A 320 meter with 200 to the house and whatever to the shop, you'll still need a load center with a main breaker at each location. 200 amp load centers are actually cheaper here then smaller ones still under $100.00 w/o cover. As been pointed out the service is sized by a percentage of your loads because we never run everything at once 100% of the time. Good luck.
I would just like to point out the fact that -- if you have the loads evenly balanced -- you can have up tp 160 amps continuous or maybe 190 amps intermittant on each phase. In other words, a 200 amp panel should provide 320 to 380 amps without any problems.
~Peter
We need a reipe for a file cake.
If you want more light but don't want to worry about people getting in and having parties, you could install clerestory windows. "You can't declare yourself King just because some watery tart thows a scimitar at you!"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Good points from all.
You guys are slowly beating me back towards reality - reality being that 200 amps total is probably enough. I'm not TRYING to be ridiculous. I'm just trying to install a service that I won't outgrow.
No, I haven't had an electrician do a load calculation. I'm having a hard enough time getting one to bid the Meter Main installation. Besides, I'm pretty stubborn about trying to figure this kind of stuff out myself. I hate turning a problem completely over to someone else without understanding the problem myself.
Celestial windows are great, but my building is two floors. Getting the light down to the lower floor would be a trick.
Dormers would have been the way to go, but I ran out of time. My roof decking had seen as much as two months of sun/rain. (Doing all this work myself on weekends. Plus, I'm working through a terrible fear of heights. So the roof decking and upper trusses took a long time.) I felt like I HAD to get a roof on it. At the time, I thought I could always go back and cut in a couple dormers. After all the effort and money in that roof, It'd break my heart now to cut into it.
I'll attach a couple other photos. It's been a long summer for an over-ambitious desk jockey. Lost 15 lbs though!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Just for shi.. and giggles you could go to the library and get a copy of the NEC . In the back are sample calculations for single family dwellings, plug your expected loads in and see what you come up with.
You may have better luck if you approach an electrician and act like you know nothing and have no preconceived notions. Trades guys sometimes get a little wary if they think you're going to try to tell them how to do the job. It's certainly fair to tell them what you want... but do that in terms of listing the equipment you're running, not in terms of the amperage of the service you want. Just a hunch...
I've been away so long I'd forgotten how great this place is. I visit a lot of forums on the 'net where folks are lucky to get more than a couple responses to a question. This Breaktime board is the best on the web, IMO.
Anyway...
David,
I hear what you're saying
I try to be specific about my needs and concerns, but I'm always careful to acknowledge their expertise and ask for their opinion. I'm an analytical guy. I can't approach a job like this - even if I'm not doing the work - without figuring out the best solution to the problem. By the time I tackle a task like this, I know more about the subject than 95% of the general public. But I also know that 99.9% of the pros still put me to shame.
I know that I set off alarms in their heads when I start talking in detail that most folks don't use. Some of them probably label me as a troublemaker right away. The ones that hang with me though find that I quickly shut up and listen to what they have to say."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I'm not TRYING to be ridiculous. I'm just trying to install a service that I won't outgrow.
Good plan.
In Denver, my professional woodworking shop only had 50A, 100A for the whole bldg., including upstairs apt. It worked, barely.
Here, I figured 50A in the temporary shop would probably be adequate and ran wire accordingly, 750' down the hill. Baaaad decision. Plans change and I happened into some larger machinery. Now I'm generating my own 3 phase whenever I run the larger machines. It works, but not what I had in mind. I'm up to 20hp just to run the planer. Sander is more. Didn't have enough amps for a phase converter. Choice became additional meter, bury another wire, or generate.
The tools were cheap, unfortunately the electric planning was also.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
JJSHAW!
What is the pitch on that pup? Any tips on decking a roof that steep by yourself? I plan to build a 9 in 12 more or less alone.
It's a 14/12 pitch. It's sized to match the house. (ever see the Maple Forrest house in FHB? My house is designed after it.)
I nailed a row of 2x4's down to guide the installation of the SECOND row of plywood. I saved the first row, with the associated eave overhangs, for last. Not saying that's the right way. It's just the way I did it. After the second row was up, I pushed sheets up one at a time and layed them above the second row. I installed roof brackets and walkboards as I went. After I got a few rows up, I started using my shingle hoist to raise the CDX to the roof. The biggest problem, by far, was getting control of my fear of heights. When I started, I could barely get myself to step off the ladder. I had a real hard time trusting the walk boards. Some days, I'd take all day to install a single row (that's six lousy sheets of plywood!!!!!) Once I got a little bit of nerve up, it went pretty easily. "Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
JJSHAW: It is fun to hear of your experience. Particularly of your getting used to the height and ladders, etc.. I reroofed a 12 in 12 pitch including stripping old shake. The shake removal was ok, the first six squares of shingles was interesting, then I was off and running climbing out on dormers and all.
I think I can deal with the height issue when it comes time to sheathing, but the logics of moving sheets around on the roof seems like a different animal when compared to shingles. That is why I asked.
At any rate it is possible.
Say, what is wiht the 14 in 12? That is a real odd slope, then again a custom house is a custom house.
I'm still a little shakey at times, particularly when I sheathed the gable ends.
Being a newbie, I didn't sheath the gable trusses when they were on the ground. So I got the pleasure of hoisting 4x8 sheets of CDX up a 30' extension ladder. Of course, the ladder couldn't rest on or above the area where the sheathing was going, so I was always working at the very top of the ladder. I pushed the sheets ahead of me, set them into place, and held them with my forehead while I retrieved the nailgun from my belt and nailed the sheet into place. That was far more intense than any of the roof work. I'm just luck I got a really calm day.
The pitch isn't all that unusual. At least I don't think it is. I used that pitch because it will match the house. I based the house design on a house featured in FHB."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Yes, I have always loved that picture as well.
Are you building it yourself?
Will you have the curved rafter detail?
The actual "division of labor", if you will, has yet to be determined. My original dream was to drive every nail. Reality (and marriage) has since caught up to me. A large portion of the job will have to be contracted out. I'm definitely cutting the timber frame. I'll contract a lot of the outer shell work, just to make sure it's weathered in reasonably quickly.
I've contemplated that curved rafter detail and eyebrow dormer from the very beginning. They are important details to the overall feel of the house, but construction would be a lot easier without them.
I'm afraid the dormer is no longer in consideration. Just too much work to do for me to devote the time it would take me to get that right.
The curved rafters are not in the drawings I generated, but they are still in the back of my mind. I might HAVE to take a shot at that. "Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
JJSHAW:
Thanks for indulging me. One more question. Did you use attic truss in your shop? If so what did they use for the chord (I think that is what they call it, ie the floor)? 2 x 8s, 2 x 10?
And did you step them yourself as well?
I did use attic trusses. I didn't really need an attic in the shop, but it seemed a shame to waste all that space. I hired a crane to help me set them. That was money well-spent. Lower chords were 2x10. I'll attach a drawing of the lower section of the trusses."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
JJSHAW:
The reason I am curious about your trusses is that your shop is 28 feet which is exactly the width of a garage I have in mind for a home I hope to build soon. I had been thinking that a 28 foot span for an attic truss could be a bit of a reach. Like you, I figure I might as well frame it as a bonus room whether I finish it right away or never. Could not hurt resale.
Did you price the trusses with and without the attic option? Price difference?????
I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like $3700 for standard trusses, $4500 for scissor trusses, and $4800 for the attic trusses. My memory is pretty bad, so the actual numbers could have been a little different. I do remember that I paid about $5000 for my trusses, once everything was said and done."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
> I was always working at the very top of the ladder. I pushed the sheets ahead of me, set them into place, and held them with my forehead
And you did this without a rope and harness? Oy veh.
-- J.S.
I had a fall protection harness, but no where to attach it. Attaching it to the ladder didn't make any sense. If I had a partner, I could have attached an anchor to the roof and had my buddy take up the slack. But I was by myself and couldn't figure out any way to make it work. It wasn't fun.
I was a little smarter when it came to the fascia boards. I rented a towable boom lift and secured my harness to it.
My garage will be virtually the same construction as this shop, and you can bet that I'll sheath those gables on the ground!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
> If I had a partner, I could have attached an anchor to the roof and had my buddy take up the slack. But I was by myself and couldn't figure out any way to make it work. It wasn't fun.
They make a special rope grab device for that purpose. You attach the main safety line to the roof above where you're working, and let it hang down to the ground. The grab device fits around the safety line and hooks to your back "D" ring with a short lanyard. As long as you're not falling, the grabber simply slides up and down the safety line. The instant you stop holding up your end of the short lanyard, it grabs onto the rope. The harder you pull downward on the lanyard, the harder it grabs the rope. It can also be used in always-grabbing mode, so you have to manually move it whenever you need to. That reduces the distance you fall before it catches you, and it can also be used for work positioning to some extent that way.
I got mine from VER sales, http://www.VERsafety.com
-- J.S.
Thanks John. I'll definitely look into this.
I'll be up in the air quite a bit when I start working on the house, so a rope grab could be a great help.
I sure don't want to repeat that gable sheathing nonsense. When I got down off the ladder that day my knees were shaking so badly that I had to sit down.
Thanks again!
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Oh jeez!!!
It's embarrassing to admit this, but I had a rope grab and just didn't realize what it was for. It came with the fall kit.
In my defense, I will say that the instructions with the kit were pretty poor.
Now that you've pointed it out, I'll try USING it next time."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
"I would just like to point out the fact that -- if you have the loads evenly balanced -- you can have up tp 160 amps continuous or maybe 190 amps intermittant on each phase. In other words, a 200 amp panel should provide 320 to 380 amps without any problems."HELP WHERE IS AJ WHEN YOU NEED HIM.NO, NO, NO, NO, !!!!!!!!!!All of the big load, the heatpumps, woodworking equipment, etc are 240 volt loads.Actually when you go through the NEC load chart it does all of the calculation in Kw's to eliminate this confusion.
A double pole 200 amp breaker will carry up to 200 amps thru each pole. Agreed?
A 240 volt circuit of 20 amps will place 20 amps on each phase or bus bar or pole of the breaker. You could have 10 of them on a 200 amp breaker.
A 120 volt circuit of 20 amps will draw 20 amps on only one bus bar or pole of the main 200 amp breaker. You can have 10 of them on each phase or a total of 20 on both phases.
But I will try the kW thing:
20A X 240 volts = 4800 VA per breaker X 10 breakers = 48000 VA = 48kVA = 48kW20A X 120 volts = 2400 VA per breaker X 10 breakers = 24000 VA = 24kVA = 24kW
Now 2 X 24000 VA = 48000 VA since we have 10 on each bus. Incidently, the neutral would balance out and ideally be 0 if perfectly balanced but as Matt says, :That ain't gonna happen".
Either way, we have 48000 240 = 200 amps so a 200 amp circuit. I think the confusion comes from not realizing that in a circuit [single phase -- two wire] that there is say 20 amps flowing in the hot wire and also 20 amps flowing in the other wire [neutral or other phase].
You are right that you can have only 10 20 amp circuits at 240 volts each in a 200 amp panel. I am right in that you can have 20 20 amp circuits at 120 volts in a 200 amp panel.
Incidently the square root of 3 is the same as the tangent of 60º.
~Peter
50 pounds of nitous oxide is deperately needed for a hilarious excape attempt to rescue an unnamed damsel from a dank fortress within easy helicopter range of Camp David.
"A 240 volt circuit of 20 amps will place 20 amps on each phase or bus bar or pole of the breaker. You could have 10 of them on a 200 amp breaker."You can have 20 of then, actually 21 as a 42 slot panel is the largest allowed.Actually you an have more if you have a sub-panel.Go add of all of the breakers in your panel and most cases they will add up to much more than the main is rated for.That is why I keep going back to that this is only one way to figure this - DEMAND LOADING.Here is the chart to figure it.http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/bh0019.aspFor homes the 3 basic areas. Required circuits, such as the 2 20 amp kitchen appliance circuits.NAMEPLATE RATINGS for "fixed" appliacne and equipment. That includes AC/heatpumps, DW, etc.And 3watts per sq ft (I think that is the number without looking it up) finished for general purpose lighting and receptacles.Nower there are some adjustments to those numbers for demand. For example on an electric stove they know that on the average you are not going to be running all burners and the oven on high at the same time.From that you get the KW load and from that you get the amp rating.A home workshop is a little different as you won't be running all possible loads at one time. So you need to look at the combination of equipment that will be running at one time. Again based on the nameplate ratings, not the CB rating.
I don't think we're talking about the same thing. In your quote of me, I was refering to a circuit of a full 20 amps -- not an underloaded 20 amp breaker. To be more precise, you can have 10 fully loaded 20 amp circuits on each phase of a 200 main amp panel [for a total of 200 amps on each phase]. Two phases or busbars X 200 amps = 400 theoretical amps per panel.
You are right that the circuits are seldom used to their full capacity. A 15 amp saw maybe runs at 6 amps unless it bogs down due to being pushed to hard. On start up, it will draw 6 to 10 times that for a moment.
~Peter
Martha demands to see her personal lawyer who is now in Chile which doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US.
I'm working on a house that is 8000 square feet with megawatts of indoor and outdoor lighting, big appliances, lots of electrically heated floors, a couple of electrically heated hot tubs, the works. They have (and need) 400 amps. You only need 200, probably only 100 out in the shop, if that. Did you have an electrician size the service you need?
One of the first places that you want to check out when figuring this power situation out is with your electrical company that supplies your power. Different companies have different standards as far as sizes for their service entrance. Some companies start out with 200 amp service and jump right to a 400 amp service. One thing to consider is the minimum monthly meter charge of a 400 amp service, depending on what it is, it may be cheaper just to have two 200 amp services. One for the shop and one for the house. The power company that I work for in the last few years have come up with a 320 amp service entrance. I see alot of people use 200 amps for the house and 100 amp for their shop off of a service that size.
Also, just thought I would throw in my last house that I lived in had a three ton geothermal heat pump, heating and cooling just shy of 3000 sq. ft. When I clamped an ampmeter on it, it only pulled 17 amps max.
Steve
Definitely talk to both the building inspector and the power company. You have to make *both* of them happy, or no electrons for you.
Here, the DWP has only one make and model of 400 amp panel they will allow. DBS won't allow more than one service on a lot that has a single family residence on it. This is all very very local. What's required one place may be forbidden in another, and vice versa.
-- J.S.
JJ--
If you want 400 amps, even if the NEC demand calcs show tha 200 amps will be adequate (but close, maybe), go for it! And I mean that sincerely.
Be prepared to pay for it, though.
Your question has as much to do with the cost of the job as with the size of the service.
Unlike manufacturing, or programming, or customer service by telephone, you can't have an electrical service installation outsourced to a country where $5 a day is big money. The consumer culture is such that we want more, and want to pay less. Me too, most of the time.
My point is that if the bid you got for $4,000 is from a qualified licensed electrician, with commercial liability insurance, workers comp, etc, it's probably a fair price. Part of what you're paying a professional for is accepting responsibility for doing the job right. Now, that's not to say that everyone with a license will do the job right. Or that someone who isn't licensed could not do the job right.
If you have to time and motivation to learn, and an inclination to be meticulous, you probably could buy the parts and successfully do it yourself. What you'll be spending instead of money is your time. If doing it yourself will make you feel good (either sense of accomplishment of saving the money), go for it!
One question--are you an engineer by education or profession?
Best of luck,
Cliff
JJ,
Is this shop going to be used for business/farm work or will it be strictly for doing your hobbies in?
If it is for business/farm type stuff, you might just want to have it on it's own 200A meter and claim the entire expense including electric bills as OH or Cost of Doing Business.
SamT
Well.........
I've set up a woodworking business, but it won't be off the ground for several years and may never generate any serious money. I'm afraid if I set the power up commercially, the cost will never be justified.
I think it's safer to consider it a hobby that may one day generate some income."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I do understand that there are a lot of costs wrapped up in a contractor's price. Insurance, worker's bene's, overhead costs, that stuff isn't cheap. Plus, this is highly skilled labor. You have to pay real money for that.
But, I also know that when some contractors get really busy, they'll bid the jobs they're not really interested in doing at 1.5X or 2x their normal price. If they price themselves out of the job, that's no loss. If they get the job, it's a juicy profit.
My original question was geared at determing a ballpark price for a meter and split main panel installation, just to see if this guy is being fair. It sounds like he is.
One thing I did learn on Friday was that he was budgeting 32 man-hours for the work. That seems REALLY high to me. I can't imagine that two guys couldn't finish the work in one day.
No option for doing the work myself. My county demands that all electrical and plumbing work be done by a "Master." That will save me the danger of screwing something up, but will add 10's of thousands to my bottom line cost. That's just the way it is."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
JJ-
It may not take 32 man-hours of work on the service panel, but you've got the time to get the materials, mobilization (set-up) and de-mob time, travel time, and I'll tell ya, those big conductors do take a lot of time to work with...I recently installed a 200 amp meter-main, grounding electrode system, about 100 feet of feeder (in EMT) and a 200 amp house panel. Took about 24 man-hours, on-site time.
As far as your bid, you're probably aware that in a fixed bid price there is always a little cushion in case things go south.
Best o' luck with the project.
Cliff
Since my own jobs take longer than I expect, I shouldn't be surprised that the electrician's job does too. The difference is that he knows this from experience and builds it into his bid.
Even so...... 32 hours?!?!? Keep in mind that there is no feeder cable or circuit wiring envolved, just setting the meter with a main panel and a disconnect. The POCO will connect the feeder once the meter is in place.
It's a company exec that's doing the bidding here. I found out tonight that the electrician that would actually be doing the work told his boss that he could finish in one day. His boss didn't believe him and padded it out to 2 days.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
BTW, I am an engineer. I suppose I confirm the stereotype, though I hope I'm not quite the PITA that contractors say we are."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
JJ--
Hey, some of my good friends are engineers. I've even been accused of being one, and consider it a high compliment.
Cliff
1. Am I wrong, or is this $4,100 quote excessive?
You don't say how far the workshop is from the service pole so it is hard to determine if $4,100 is excessive. As each area has a going rate for eletricians, this also contributes to the problem. A standard 400 Amp service and meter should run you around $2,700 if it were going directly to the home and no further. This assumes you already have the electric panels installed with the main grounds
2. Without knowing the total draw on your service it is difficult to know if 200 AMP servce is enough, but given that you will have a workshop and a home, I would opt for the 400 AMP serive.
3, 200 AMP service should cost you in the neighborhood of $1,500 to $1,700 dollars.
Getting a power company to hook a 400 or even 200 AMP service line to a workshop will be a trick, I suspect most won't do it. A better idea would be to invest in a electrical generator for about $400 until you are ready for the home service. The generator will be more than enough to power your tools, however you will be limited to working during daylight hours.
Getting the power company to agree to hook up to the workshop WAS a trick!!
Even getting the county to allow me to build the workshop before the house was a trick.
It all hinges on what I call the building. If I call it a detached garage, everyone is happy. The county let me build it first and the power company has no problem with me located my meter there.
When I slip and call it a workshop, all kinds of alarms go off. But all I have to do is say "Well, it's really just a detached garage." and everything is fine again. Very weird!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
An interesting thought would be to check if three-phase is available at your site. It isn't totally uncommon, even in rural areas. Beats the heck out of a rotophase if you did need it, but of course these things all have there price. An engineer with the local utility can answer this and connection fee costs, whether they provide the secondary to the meter or how far they do provide before it becomes you responsibility. Locally it's 3-4 dollars an amp[2 different utilities]. This on top of your elec. contractors quote.