I know a person who remodeled his house (a ranch) on his own. The problem I see is he removed the web part of the trusses to create a vaulted ceiling. I don’t think there is anything holding up the roof besides 2×4, maybe 2×6. The peak has a double 2×12 beam that must be sliced added. This was done recently and the roof on the exterior looks to be showing so strain compared to the garage that still has the complete trusses.
I am of the opinion that the roof could collapse at any time. I also think that if the town found out they would not allow people to live in it till it was fixed. The roof is probably 12 run by 6rise. We also get a lot of snow at times.
I feel like I need to go talk with him because I see a serious problem but also don’t want to step on any toes. So I am hoping to get a professional opinion by as many framers as possible so I can show him what you guys believe will happen. If you have any remedies I would also like to here from you.
Thanks
American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
Replies
Is this someone you know well enough that he might, after hearing your concerns, take a second look at what he has done?
Or is he a bullhead that the only light he might see is the bright flash in his brain that will occur when the roof falls on his noggin?
A couple of years ago, a guy (who I didn't know) was building an 8' tall retaining wall using 4 X 4 posts sunk in the ground and backed with some scavenged 3/4" plywood (untreated). When I saw one day that he was back filling it with some dry clay soil, with winter rains yet to come, I considered stopping to talk to him politely about his "retaining wall."
But I didn't, and even before the first fall rain, it collapsed and blocked one lane of the road.
I ended up helping him a couple months later build a decent wall with some internal drains....he was willing and able to pay me, but I'd decided that, because he was 80+ years old, I'd "just be neighborly". We've since become friends and his wall is just fine.
He once told me he'd have appreciated my comments in the beginning before he "did all that damned work for nothin'."
I'm not sure if he would appreciate my input or not. He did a nice job on eveything else in the house but the roof scares me - I don't want to go in the house. My thought was if some othe the remodelers / framers would take the time to make what ever points they could about the consequences of this roof he might be more apt to take the information seriouslyAmerican Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
Perhaps you could draw us a picture of exactly what he cut and what he built. I can't really tell you if I think he did anything dangerous without having a bigger picture. Did he cut out all the webbing in a whole area? or did he just cut a couple of webs here and there? It might be that the only harm will be a little but of sagging after time. Or the whole thing might come down on him. Are these just simple "w" trusses spanning 24' ? or is it a big complex cut-up roof with 60'+ trusses all over the place where a cut web in one area might cause a see-saw effect on the other side of the house?
Give up some more details here.
The house is approx 24' deep x 50' wide. I was not present when the house was remodeled so I don't know what the trusses looked like to begin with but the only part of the trusses that remain are the 2x4 's that come in contact with the roof, there is no longer any webing.American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
No doubt the trusses are screwed up, if the web members and bottom chords have been tampered with. How serious it is depends on what exactly was done.But as others have said - He just may not want to hear it. Hard to say how he might react. I'd bring it up in a conversation and simply tell him something doesn't look right. If you say something sort of "neutral" like that, it won't be as likely to put him on the defensive. Come at him with something like "Boy you sure screwed that up" and he'll likely get defensive immediately.
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this reminds of another "dumb" reno i saw recently that just last week came close to disaster
somebody had cut out a rim joist in a house between 2 levels to accomadate some rerouted hvac stuff
i posted this a few weeks ago
kitchen floor joists some 14 feet long unsupported at one end, literally hanging in mid air and a couple of small non bearing walls in the basemnt holding it all up!!
i gave the guy some good advice ie "call a framer and get it fixed" well he didnt and laid about 600 sqft of laminate flooring on this mess
a week later the laminate flooring is garbage, broken tongues, gaps everywhere
i'm no framer, but i knew enough to give some advice and a referral
as professionals in our field, that's our responsibilty, moral if not legal
i know nothing about roof trusses other than not to mess with them without professional advice
tell the guy what you think, you'll sleep better, if that doesnt work, go to the building inspector, lives are at stakecaulking is not a piece of trim
I'm a builder/ remodeler/ gc and have installed many sets of roof trusses. I also worked in the lumber/truss sales market for about 7 years. Throughout my varied career, I've listened to the truss engineers and understand that a truss has strength by the sum of the components. (i.e. webbing & top & bottom chords) Without all of these securely attached, you just have a 2x4 (spliced at that ) supporting your roof.
That is a wonderful recipe for failure of the roof system, especially with a moderate snow load.
But... the damned thing may stand for years to come, GOD has a way of watching over some less informed (ignorant) people.
Any alteration of trusses should only be done under the guidance of a structural engineer.
What you describe has all the earamarks of a story for front page, second section of the newspaper. Headline news if it is a small town.
I would recommend that you advise him that you believe that he has put his life and others lives in danger, likely to prove up when the first heavy snow hits. Here is my reasoning...
if he is a "Friend" he is likely going to listen to me and I am caring deeply about him and his family. Friends don't let friends ignorantly kill themselves.
if he is an acquaintance pnly, I would still tell him. if he is bull-headed and refuses good advice, the relationship is less likely to proceed to friendship, either because of his attituide, or his death but if he hears me and takes corrective action at the recoomendation of an engineer, he might become an even closer friend, the relationship being bolstered by gratitude.
Either way, I would approach it tactfully with questions leading to recommendation, and then let it lie. It is then his game - but i would not stop by for visits on a snowy day.
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This guy cut apart trusses to make a vaulted ceiling which is bad enough and obviously doing this without consulting an Architect or Engineer not that probably would've mattered. This guy did something that could potentially KILL himself his whole family and other people.
Your not stepping on any toes at all. If you care about this guy and his family as I'm sure you do I would go there right now and tell him what you think because this has nothing to do with hurting his feelings. This guys WIFE and KIDS shouldn't have to pay for his stupidity.
If you say something to him and he gets made that's to bad. If he doesn't listen then I would call the town on him. At least you will sleep at night if something ever happened to his family.
Joe Carola
Edited 7/14/2005 7:18 am ET by Framer
I'd say something. At least your consience would be clear.
The housec across from us was remodeled a long time ago. Guy wanted room for the pipes in his pipe organ. So he cut the webbing out. Well 1 or 2 owners later they want to remodel. Then Remodeler had major upcharges when they found that stuff. If this guy ever wants to sell any decent home inspector would see this and sale fail the property. And your neighbor would have to repair before selling.
If this guy ever wants to sell any decent home inspector would see this and sale fail the property. And your neighbor would have to repair before selling.
Unless the roof caves in on him and his family before he sells.............
Joe Carola
He is a friend of a friend and is going through a rough time so I don't want to be the one to give him this news. I've been asked not to say anything but it keeps bothering me - I just do trim - what do I know? As I read these posts everyone thinks this is a big problem, so now that I my concerns are validated I will talk with him. Not looking forward to this at all.American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
Try and look at it like he's already going through a rough time about something and your saving him from going through another rough time.Joe Carola
There are times when innocent lives come before friendship. This is one of those times. Talk to him, then sleep better. I'm guessing you won't sleep well until the situation is satisfactorily resolved, if you care for the guy/family at all.
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If he's a friend of a friend, maybe you'd be better off going in there with your mutual friend on side. He's more likely to listen to two men who come to him in all seriousness with concerns for his safety and that of his family.
Unless of course your mutual friend is the one who asked you not to tell him. (In which case, the mutual friend may not really be qualified to hold that title....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
What if you approached it like this?Compliment him on how his renovation looks. Tell him you are thinking of doing something similar, but are not sure how to deal with the roof trusses. Ask him what he did (that way you are not disclosing that you already know its wrong) and who he consulted. If you keep asking pointed questions, he might reach the correct conclusion on his own.
Thanks to everyone who has posted and to anyone else who posts. The number of responders is another indicator of the problem. I will let you all know during the next week how it all went.American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
"This was done recently and the roof on the exterior looks to be showing so strain compared to the garage that still has the complete trusses"
How noticeable is the sagging? If there is an obvious difference between the cut & uncut areas, I'd approach the neighbor & point that out. To me it would seem that a visible indication of the problem would lend more credence to your concern than "some framer's I talked to said this is a problem".
>>The peak has a double 2x12 beam that must be sliced added.
I don't understand that remark.
>>only part of the trusses that remain are the 2x4 's that come in contact with the roof, there is no longer any webing.
>>The roof is probably 12 run by 6rise. We also get a lot of snow at times.
So he converted a truss roof, probably 24"OC, to a 2x4 stick framed roof.
I wouldn't worry about snow. Snow is 6 months off, and I don't think that roof will last that long.
SamT
>>>The peak has a double 2x12 beam that must be sliced added.
>I don't understand that remark.
I think it means that the guy put in a double 2x12 structural ridge before cutting away the webbing and bottom chords. That could still result in an inadequate structure, but without the ridge beam, it sounds more like it should have collapsed during the cutting operation.
Asking him if he'd recommend the engineer he used sounds like the tactful way to approach it.
-- J.S.
I am guessing that by strain you mean sag, that alone is a sign of trouble, even more so since we know what he actually did to the trusses. Those trusses cannot be touched. They either have to be rebuilt or the roof has to be reframed with rafters. If he doesn't listen to your concerns and fix it on the QT, you may consider calling the building dept, but only as a last resort.