Last fall, I installed crown molding in several rooms of a customers home. I’ve done quite a bit of crown for myself, friends, and family, and either I did the painting or they did it. In other words, I did the sanding, filling, and caulking and left the job “paint ready”. This was the first time I had dealt with a “turnover” to a professional painter.
Since the customer hadn’t picked their painter, I talked to a few of my painter friends to find out how much of the prep work they expected from me – and how much they wanted to handle themselves. The unanimous verdict was that it was my job to get the crown solidly hung but they preferred to do all the prep work. Some of their opinions of carpenters prep work were almost insulting. – lol
After I hung the crown, I told the customer that there were places (scarf joints, etc.) that would need some more work and that I would come back if the painter had problems.
The customer called a couple of weeks ago and said they weren’t happy with the job. When I met with them, there were definite problems and I asked them why they hadn’t called before everything was painted. They told me that when he bid the job, the painter had assured them that he would take care of everything. When I went up the ladder and looked closely, it was obvious that the painter did little – if any – prep work.
Cutting to the chase, I’m replacing most of the living room crown. (I just love hanging 6-7/16″ crown on 12′ high ceilings. – lol). I had insisted on meeting the painter and when I asked him what he expected, he said “You just hang it, I’ll do everything else.” When I asked him why he hadn’t done that in the first place, he said that he hadn’t bid enough to spend much time doing prep work.
Ok, now that I’ve had my vent, I’ll ask the painters what they typically want from the trim guys. I’m sure I’ll run into this again, and I want to have a better idea if what’s expected.
Replies
I'm no painter but I will say that you're one generous guy.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com
"...I will say that you're one generous guy."A roaring understatement, if you ask me. Dave, that painter should not be in bizniz.If he opts to paint something from a ladder which will be seen as a glaring deficiency from six feet lower by everyone else, he is either blind (at best) or a thawed-out caveman (wait- no, that would be better). Prep for new interior trim is virtually 100% forseeable, and a painter should always figure on the basic sand fill, caulk. The only reason he shouldn't be up on that ladder instead of you is that he got his painter's credentials from Curley,Larry&Moe Vocational. Even if he found an installation job requiring an unexpected amt of prep, his options are A.track down the carpenter and work it out (which you offered), B.explain to the client why he must charge more money,C.(and this happens so often that a painter should have allowed for it) just do the work, becauseit's probably quicker than A or B, or D.respectfully withdraw his bid so someone can do it right. There's only one way crown molding can look (barring minute differences in application), and it's the painter is the FINISHER. except in this case. BTW, if I had the chance, I'd paint all of the crown stock on the floor with shellac based primer and an oil based topcoat with Japan drier, install the next day, spackle nails and sand joints, reprime same, touch up. caulk last if color is white. saves cutting in and ladder time, and you can be your own painter.
I don't understand why you have to replace it.
When I install crown, I always caulk and sand / fill any scarf joints.
"Logic, like whiskey, loses it's beneficial effect when taken in too large quantities." Lord Dunsany
Dave,
You know, I got thinking about why you are going to replace the crown? Can't you just either do or pay to have the missing prep work done?
R&R seems counterproductive.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com
Replacing the crown would be a waste of material. A good painter can take care of anything. They may swear if something was mistreated or unfinished, but its what we do.
I know you are just trying to make right with the owner, but they picked a production or inexperienced painter that shouldnt be doing interior work, especially in a house that has 6 in crown.
Solid hung is what Id expect. Id wish for the finish carpenter to have the crown tight, and coped, but Im custom.
If I was bidding trim, Id look at it, and also add in a bit of a buffer for the unforeseen. It was his responsibility and his loss if he underbid the job, it has nothing to do with you.
-zen
Sorry Jon, thats for Dave.
Edited 5/27/2005 2:43 pm ET by zendo
"Replacing the crown would be a waste of material. A good painter can take care of anything. They may swear if something was mistreated or unfinished, but its what we do."well said,zen. I wanted to jump back in to say that I think it's less important to try and hammer out rules about who does what here on the forum (totally unenforceable in the real world), and more important to remember to communicate, document expectations, and most of all try to establish working relationships with people you know.
I can do it or you can do it, but if I do it I'm getting paid, and either way it's getting done.
Thanks to all of you for your responses.
I decided to replace the crown because I decided it would be easier (and faster) to get it over with rather than make repeat trips over several days - and not know until the new paint had dried whether my repair had worked. My schedule was a little loose this week so that approach made sense...........to me, anyway. - lol. I also did it because if I didn't try to do right by a customer, my old man would probably crawl out of his grave and kick my arse.
I finished the replacement this morning and went to the customers office to let her know that I was done. I told her that - once again - I would come back if the painter had any problems, but I added the condition that once he touched it with a wet brush, it was all his and I wouldn't come back.
One thing I'll do in the future is either talk directly to the painter and agree to a "turnover" level of prep - or I'll leave a letter with the HO specifying that any call backs to me must be BEFORE the paint is applied.
Saul - I wasn't trying to hammer out any rules in this forum. I was just wondering what the normal practice might be - or if there is one.
>"I wasn't trying to hammer out any rules in this forum. I was just wondering what the normal practice might be - or if there is one."-point taken, Dave. I think each of us has his own "normal practice", and that can be a problem. For instance: some trim carpenters are protective enough of their product as to trust no one to fix their joints; they'll wood fill or sand as needed to guarantee invisibility. Others, though, might leave a joint which requires a little skilled filling/sanding, thinking, "that can be fixed". This may be, but since you don't know who's going up there next this leaves much up to chance. IMO, a properly installed scarf joint should fall on a stud, be glued, and require no more work from the painter than do the nailholes themselves - one pass to fill, one to sand. Anything more throws off the painter's timing, and assumes a certain skill level they may not have. Offering to come back if there are problems is thoughtful, but I think it's far better to just eliminate potential sources while you're there.
You're dead-on, Saul. As I said in my first post, this was my first experience with a "turnover" and I have a list of "lessons learned" to carry to the next job. Like the fella said........."To soon old, too late smart". - lol
"When I asked him why he hadn't done that in the first place, he said that he hadn't bid enough to spend much time doing prep work."
Dave,
I think I've worked with that painter before; his motto was, "We skrew the other guy and pass the savings on to you."
With such a "work ethic," I wonder how a guy like that can sleep at night!
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
My thoughts exactly, Jazzdog although I have to admit that I did use too many pieces of crown. I hung this by myself and that's just too much to try with that sized crown and 12' ceilings. That's part of the reason I agreed to replace it - with a helper this time.
This painter is a "youngster" (around 30) and maybe he'll figure it out someday. For now, I plan to let my painter friends know about him and let nature take it's course. - lol
Unfortunately, there are some contingencies that can't be covered in a written contract - like one's sense of honor when confronted with the sad realities of someone who apparently has none.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Hi Dave, Looks like you ran into a real pita painter. I expect all finish work to be prepped by me, EXCEPT the scarf joints in the middle of walls. Sometimes there is nothing but nail holes to prep, sometimes it looks like the grand canyon. Most carpenters do not caulk their joints properly. ( oh, that does not sound good) but an open joint on a crown is like a ripple on the lake, EVERY BODY see it. If the carpenter does not do a good job fitting joints, no prep work on earth can hid them.
Jim Z
Like I said, I've always done ALL the prep work but that was on my own stuff or for friends or family.
What really ticked me off about this job was that I had emphasized to the customer that I would take care of any problems that the painter didn't want to deal with. Apparently, he told them it was no problem and he would make it all look great. From what I could see, he hadn't even touched some of the problem areas - they were just painted.
I know scarf joints are a pain and I try to avoid them, but this room has two walls around 20' long and the longest crown I could get was 16'. There are a couple of scarf joints but this time my helper and I tried to position them where they would be as inconspicuous as possible. I've been doing custom woodwork for almost 30 yrs and I'm pretty good at making nice joints. I'm also damned good at fixing a joint so it goes away. If I had gotten a shot at this before it got painted, I'm sure I could have dealt with it.
Oh well, it's over and I'm starting three custom furniture jobs next week. That's where I'm trying to get my business..................I'm getting to damned old to be hanging 6-1/2" crown on 12' ceilings. My doctor says climbing ladders is good for me, but I think he's a liar!! - lol
By the way, I'll match caulking skills with you anytime and anyplace.........for money, marbles, or chalk............ - lol
Have a good weekend.