Questions about working soapstone
Been reading through past discussions about soapstone countertops and we decided to use a piece around the sink in our new house. So first off, thanks to everyone for what we think will be the perfect solution for a sticky problem we’ve been wrestling with for a few months now.
Now we’re trying to decide that an undermount sink is the right choice. The ability to sweep stuff in the sink seems a natural argument for it (plus, I really like the clean look).
But here’s the dilemma. One of the reasons I was drawn to soapstone in the first place was that I could work it myself, which keeps costs down. But. I’m not confident in my ability to machine the exposed edge around the sink perfectly. What do you folks do, rough the hole in with a diamond tipped Skilsaw, then use a router and template to trim the edge to the exact shape of the sink(s)?
That would be my approach if left to my own devices. But, of course, I have all this experience to draw from. What have you done? Seen? What do you think?
As always – any and all opinions welcome. Encouarged even.
Thanks – Jim
Replies
Make a template with a piece of MDF, rough cut the hole out and flush trim it with a router.
I've never done it on soapstone, done it on a number of other materials, but that's how I would do it if I needed to.
Had to cut a round hole in a piece of limestone counter top, did it exactly the way I described, bit got a little dull but hell it'll sharpen. Pic. attached.
Doug
What kind of saw did you make the rough cut with, Doug? Do they make jig saw blades to cut stone? Sawzall?
Jim
I used the same router bit that I made the final cut with. Figured if I was going to ruin a bit it was going to be just the one. All it did was dull it some.
The bit that I used (had it, didn't buy a special bit for the job) was an up cut spiral bit. I just free handed the initial cut, in retrospect I would not have had to do it but I was a bit cautious whether or not it would work. Then I made my final cut with the template.
I've heard others say that cutting soapstone is much easier than what I did with the limestone.
Cant remember who followed my post but you had another response that seams to verify that.
Doug
jb,
It can be somewhat of a mind-bender the first time around, but think of soapstone like MDF.
You can work it with standard carbide wood cutters and it creates a helluva lot of fine dust when you do so.
Some sinks come with templates, some don't. I either make sure the template is a good one, or I invert the sink on a sheet of 1/2" MDF, stick my hand through the sink's drainhole, and with a pencil trace the inside opening of the sink on the sheet of MDF.
Realize that with the sink inverted, the side of the MDF that you drew on will be the BOTTOM of the template.
Figure out how much reveal you want around the sink...so you want the soapstone to overhang the sink, or do you want the soapstone to be flush with the sides of the sink...and adjust the template line as required.
Cut out the template with a jigsaw (the piece that represents the sink is the waste piece) and sand to the line.
Place the template on the soapstone (don't forget right-side up) and run a pencil around the inside of the template. Remove the template, drill a couple of relief holes inside the line, then use a jigsaw to cut close to the line.
You have to support the waste piece so you don't get an unwanted snap when completing the cut.
Reset the template over the soapstone. Secure it.
I use a top-bearing straight pattern bit (Amana of course<g>) in my router. Run it around the inside of the template. If the first pass didn;t go full depth, then remove the template and reset the cutting depth it required, and make another run around this time letting the bearing ride on the already routed soapstone.
Sand the inside edge.
Tada!
Sorry if I was too basic. But again, soapstone mills and kicks off dust just like MDF. But it's purdier.
Do you use carbide jigsaw blades? I've never seen them. But then again, I've never looked for them, either.
I almost forgot you were an(other) Amana fan! My local dealer finally folded up his tent and retired. Man that was nice, to be able to drive into Tacoma and get Amana bits whenever I needed a new profile. Those are some sweet bits, man.
I'm thinking of looking into a Baddog router bit. Saw them on display at a trade show last weekend and wondered if they made the same "never dull" claims as they make about their drill bits. Have to go scope their website.
Hey. How did your Teak countertop work out? You ever finish that? Can't remember ever reading an after action report. Think I remember some photos of the glue up and you talking about what it weighed getting it upstairs, but what about a year later? Still happy with it?
I use tungsten carbide coated blades by Bosch. I bought one 3-pack years ago and am still on the first blade. They're about $10 for a 3-pack. I'd bet a HSS blade would work fine as well, you just might not have the longevity.
The teak worked great and looks great. Bulletproof, zero problems. It's been a real treat around the sink. Looks as good as the day I installed it. Unfortunately, from carrying those four slabs of countertop around, my back doesn't work as well as the day I installed the teak.<g>
That's gorgeous, man. You oil that?
Mineral oil.
The sink gets oiled maybe once every couple of months, or when it loses the richness of color. Not often. I thought I'd have to oil it a lot more often.
The butcher block gets used often, pretty much daily, and shows zero knife marks. It's some end-grain, lemme tell you that.
The non-sink counters and butcher block get oiled hardly ever...maybe every five or six months months?
Maintenance-wise, they've held up much better than I anticipated, and have been so much less laborious than others led me to believe.
Did have a slight "oh cr*p" after they were first installed. I oiled them a few times over a couple of days, then installed them. For the first few days the oil water-spotted like crazy. Rebecca was giving me the old "Another fine mess you've gotten me into" look.
Many times a day. Not good.
I guess it was just the breaking in or aging phase, as they've been solid ever since.
Thanks for the good words, they're always appreciated.
Okay. We have the stone, and today I finished prepping the bowling alley countertop the stone will be laid in/on. Been out looking at undermount stainless sinks. Do or die time is fast approaching.
So here's the current hesitation. I'm thinking an undermount sink leaves a mighty unforgiving stone edge around the sink. I'm thinking it's in evitable that edge will get danged up something awfull over the life of the counter.
I'm hoping a bunch of people will say something to the tune of "no problem, raised 17 kids and washed the family dogs in our undermount sink and it looks as good as the day my first husband installed it".
So let's hear it. Am I worried unnessecarilly?
Jim, Take a deep breath and relax. Here's why:1. Drop-in sinks, of any material, look stupid with monolithic countertops. It basically demonstrates a lack of understanding of the utility in monolithic material.2. The scum build-up along the lip of the drop-in sink always looks worse.3. When soapstone chips it looks more like a dent than a sharp or jagged chip4. With ANY new countertop, the first scratches and stains look horrible. Then, after 6 mos or so, they all begin to blend together and make the kitchen feel warmer.5. As soapstone wears, it developes character. That's not just a line. I compare it to a butcher's block or a well seasoned iron skillet.6. Undermounting the sink allows for more room on the deck behind the sink for fixture installation and ease of cleaning. Again, less scum build-up.7. Just about any drop-in sink, if not available in an undermount version, can be used in an undermount applicationRest easy,Frankie
If I didn't meet you wife I'd think these were pre-martial cold feet!<g>
The edge will be fine.
Only problem I could forsee is if you had a medium to small bowl and the top edges of the sink opening were sharp 90's, or minimally relieved. Then the corners could get hit here and there. Sharp 90's can chip, but if you radius the edge then you should have no problems whatsoever. The flat face will be fine.
Personally I'd get a large single-bowl sink. More spacious and fewer "oops".
And if you do get a ding, what Franikie said. The first ding is sheer horror when it happens. Twenty-four hours later, it's "character".
Any seams in the countertop? If the mating faces aren't purdy, I seam sopastone just like other materials. Gap the mating faces by 7/8ths inch and use a straight edge to run a rounter with a 1" bit right down the middle. Shaves 1/16th off each face and the faces are mirror images of one another.
Best of luck with the project.
Thanks Doug, Frankie, Mongo.
"If I didn't meet you wife I'd think these were pre-martial cold feet!<g>"
It never occurred to me that we both might sleep on the same side of the bed. What the heck should I do if that turns out to be true? What if she squeezes the toothpaste from the middle?
Edited 4/20/2005 10:46 pm ET by jim blodgett
Hey Frankie - you still around? I was reading through some old threads just now and noticed you saying you knew of a company that selld carbide holesaws and maybe carbide jigsaw blades? Would you mind posting the contact info? I think you said they were in Astoria? Oregon?
thanks - Jim
Yup, I'm still around - like a disease.Nope, not Oregon - Astoria, NY. I sent the info to Andy, but via the BT e-mail link. No record of it on this laptop.I'll be home later tonight and get it to you.F
There is a ompany called RockHard in Anaheim calif that sells what you are looking for. Bosch makes a carbide impregnated jigsaw blades. Try your local plumbing supply house. I saw a few carbide hole saws there lately. Fergauson Pipe(spelling?) http://www.ferguson.com/
Try: http://www.stonetoolsupply.com/catalog/index.php
HA! I have 2 sources for what you are looking for.U.S. Diamond, Inc.
24-32 44th Street
Long Island City, NY 11103
800-582-1429They don't have a website. They do have great tools, saw blades and coring bits at great prices. Nice people too.The I recetl;y discovered this place:http://www.masterwholesale.com/index.htmlThey have a great comprehensive catalogue of stonne and tile tools ans accessories and have a wealth of knowledge to help you determine/ define what is best for your project. Be sure to tell whomever, what you are using the blade or bit for. What is used for granite is not necessarily the best when used for something soft like soapstone.Let me know how things work out.Frankie
I'll vouch for these guys...Coastal Tools. Located in Hartford CT:
Carbide-coated Bosch blades: http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/bosc/bojig_other.htm?L+coastest+dkjj5272ff2f872f+1114323786
Carbide-tipped hole saws: http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/ab/leno/holesaw.htm?L+coastest+dkjj5272ff2f872f+1114326024#carbide
And, or course: http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/ab/aman/router-bits.htm?E+coastest
I started with a piece 30x60. Made the first cut a few days ago, outdoors, with a diamond blade in a Mag77 (had the blade left over from cutting some marble a few years ago). Cut like a champ. Presto chango, 25" countertop, 4+3/4" piece left over for the backsplash.
The sink cutout didn't go so well. Couldn't locate any carbide jigsaw blades and ended up drilling a series of 5/16" holes, about every 2", around the entire cutout, then connecting the dots with HSS jigsaw blades. Had to finish the last foot with the Skilsaw after braking my last jigsaw blade.
Have to say though, that once I got that far, milling to the exact opening shape was a piece of cake with a 1/2" mortising bit making several passes. Dusty, but easilly managable.
The only hitch so far in the entire process has been roughing in the hole in the first place. Next time I'll have the right jigsaw blades on hand or rough it in with a circular saw. I couldn't believe how easy it was to finish with the router.
Mondy I'll drill and enlarge the holes for faucet and soap dispenser with a drill bit and router, roundover the edges and sand everything smooth. Really am surprised at how well this is going. Piece of cake, just like you guys said. Thanks again for all the help.
Mr. blodgett, your gonna tell us all this and no pictures. Man we need proofbe posting pictures...:-)
What butch said!
Why not try a Milwalkee hole saw to cut the faucet holes? I haven't tried it on soapstone but use them on durock .
That might work, Don. Are they carbide tipped? The carbide tipped drill bit I used the other day worked fine - slow, but fine. But after my experience trying to cut that stuff with HSS jigsaw blades, I'm going right to the router. Going to drill 5/8" holes, then enlarge them with a top bearing mortising bit. I'm thinking maybe 1/2 hour for all three holes, includung layout and drilling the template.
"Photos"? I haven't taken any photos. Been working alone and stonework is new to me so I've had to focus on what I was doing at any particular time. Seems like every time I get the cameras out I spend all day doing 1/2 a day's work.
I'll take a few shots tomorrow before I leave, though. Yesterday afternoon we went up there to sweep the place out and I set the countertop, sink and soapstone all in place so we could see what it will look like. Sweet. Kathy and I both really like it. Already looking forward to using it again next time.
No ,Jim those things I have are HSS or bimetal . Surprised me how well they went through the cement board. I quit looking for the carbide hole saws . They never had the sizes that I wanted anyway. Give it a try .if it cuts you will be done faster . If not chuck it in the garbage and cuss me out for suggesting it.
Well, now you guys got my curiosity up. I cut those faucet holes this morning the way I planned, drilled 5/8" holes then enlarged them in a template with a router to 1+3/8".
But I have a box full of bimetal hole saws and I'm gonna try using one on the scrap that came out of the sink hole (I might just take you up on that cussing offer, don). Be next week though. I have to go make some moolah the rest of this week. I'll make a point of reporting back. But I gotta tell you, I'll be very surprised if it cuts that stone.
Bob - that's a danged good question about sanding. Glad I didn't read it until after I've sanded not only the edges but the surface of my slab to get a gouge and a couple scratches out. Sure makes me wonder why I could so easilly sand it when my jigsaw wouldn't cut it for beans.
So let me ask all of you this. How the heck would you know if what you had was really soapstone, or something else, except for asking the company that sells it to you? I mean, there has to be something close, just a little harder maybe, then something a little harder, then eventually you get to slate, then marble, then granite (or whatever order they are).
Unless you work with stone all the time, how would you know? Just like one of us could easilly tell if a board was hemlock, or douglas fir, or pine.
Hey Jim,I found this thread through the search function. I am doing a soapstone counter and my stone seems to be hard like yours was (is). I roughed out 80% of the hole for my undermount sink today with the worm and diamond blade, but am dreading the rest of the rough cutting.It was reassuring that your experience with the router trimming process was so easy. My sink is so rounded that using the worm to get within routing distance is not possible. I bent a Bosch carbide jigsaw blade trying to finish the saw cuts to get the main plug of stone out of the sink hole. The blade bent 15 degrees straight backwards, not at all sideways. Was using the Festool jigsaw.Tomorrow is a new day.Bill
Bump
Progress report: I think the reason the grit blade bent is that it was too short, and hit the bottom of the workpiece as it exited the kerf downwards. Longer ones not available locally. The counter is 1-1/4" thick.I scored the outline with a mini grinder freehand, as deep as I could go on the straighter rear section, and as deep as I dared on the other curves. (Basin is D-shaped.) Score depth ranged from 3/8" to 3/4"+.I then put a Progressor blade into the Festool and started my cut from a pilot hole on the edge. Although quickly dull, the blade would cut with heavy pressure and a rocking motion. As a section was completed, I carefully broke off the waste. The full perimeter took about an hour with the jigsaw. One blade did the whole cut! I am taking a breather before pattern routing the rest of the edge.Bill
The top is fully machined and buffed out and sealed. Second coat of sealer to go on tonight.Just as Jim Blodgett experienced, the routing went much easier than the sawing. If I do another one, I will order some carbide-tipped jigsaw blades to help ease the roughing cut. One thing I was very glad to have is the Saw Muzzle on my Skil 77. It hooks to a vacuum and collects 99% of the fine dust. I have used it in customer's occupied homes to make slab scores and it is a life saver.Bill
Dude,
You're making my head hurt. Take your stinking jig saw and cut it already. Forget about the stupid carbide this and that. Listen, I just finished my house, soapstone countertops (with an undermount) and all...
I cut the raw stones with my skill or pc saw (can't remember). Regular old marathon carbide blades. Roughed it all out to size (had some pretty fancy cuts) and roughed out the sink hole with my Makita jig.... saw regular blades. The blade was toast after that job but it wasn't that bad at all. I think I probably drilled holes in the corner to help with the round (probably an 1 1/2" hole saw. Made sure not to cut too close to the actual sink line cause dull jig blades drift in the cut and there's always the chance in thick stock of anything that the blade will drift over too far at the bottom of the piece.
Used the bondo type epoxy they sent with the stones (black) and it was totally easy to work with . Mix it up, slather it on, push stone together, caulk the underside of the stones to keep them in place.
For the sink (Kohler) I used clear silicone all over the flange and drill pilot holes for the sink clamps. I think I might have used a sheet metal screw (short of course) to hold the clamps in place (in the pilot holes) just until the silicone setup (that's what is really holding the sink in place now). Anyway, something with a really aggressive thread. Do a test piece.
After the sink was in.... and this is the easy part...... long flush trim router bit with the bearing just barely riding on the sink and finished off the sink edge. Might have taken 2 minutes plus maybe 30 seconds of thought before hand. Don't lower the bit so low that you can nick the sink.
Then I sanded everything. I think I went as high as 150 or so. Maybe I used 220 for 15 seconds or so. Then I rounded over all edges including the sink edge. Finished with a light hand sanding on the edges.
When the counters are oiled, the glue lines totally disappear just like the distributor said they would. Wonderful countertop. Definitely much more organic than that really highly polished granite stuff.
No need to make this harder than it really is. Just go to it. I'll try and post picks tomorrow.
Rob Kress
You're using a different stone than me, Bob. I guarantee it. No way you're gonna cut this stuff I got with a regular jigsaw blade, tokk me five of them for the sink hole and I drilled it every 2" or so. Still had to finish up with a circular saw.
Maybe what I have isn't really "soapstone", but that's what it was sold to me as and for almost the exact same price as a dealer in San Francisco quoted me per square foot. But I'll tell you man, about half way through cutting that sink hole Friday I was sure thinking I had missed something, took several hours.
Jim
Don't you think a bi-metal hole saw would cut the stone?
I cant imagine that it wouldn't, unless your soapstones is so much harder than average.
Doug
Jim,
Maybe you really don't have soapstone casue it really is only talc and that is not hard enough to stop any bi-metal saw blade.
Yes, there were spots in my stone that were more dense than others and it did seem that these spots were harder but indeed all of my blades, saws, hose saws, and router bits just went right though. Much different than the time I tried to mill marble. Now that was truely hard (lot like granite though).
So if your stone is so hard, how do you plan to sand it? Will the sand paper you have even cut it?
Rob Kress
whoa your kitchen looks marvelous! my wife loves it! do you have 9 foot ceilings also? when I get the bath and the floors done that will be the next honeydo in a year or two don't go away wf1