Here is the situation. I have a den in my basement in northeastern IL. we use it as a home theater / office space.
The room is approx 15x25x7.5.
During the summer, there are days that the room could use some cooling, but it needs de-humidifying for the whole spring and summer. In the winter, I supplement the radiators with a space heater.
What I am looking for is a system that is very quiet (home theater is the primary room use), and that can combine the functions of my current noisy portable de-humidifer and space heater, with the addition of cooling on those very hot days. Finally, if there was any way to add an air-filtration function (for poker night) then I would have the perfect solution.
I have read about mini-split a/c systems, and I am not sure how well they work at de-humidifying the air, but they sound interesting. My concern would be that I need to be able to de-hummidfy on many days when I would not want to run the a/c for cooling.
The moisture level is not extreme, as the room hasd 75 year old wood panelling and flooring that has not buckled, but it is enough to be uncomfortable, and not so good for all the electronic equipment in the room.
Any insights will truly be appreciated.
ar
Replies
Where's your water heater?
An add-on heat pump water heater would do just about what you want. Mine's running now. Roughly 3x more efficient than a resistance heater with a free byproduct of cool dry air. Now's when we start using ours, until late Sept.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well, the current water heater is about 20 ft across the unfinished part of my basement. There is a shared wall between the two spaces. I am not familiar with that type of heater, so if you have a brand name or any links I will do some research.
thanks for the tip
ar
Mine's from Crispaire Corp in Georgia. Occasionally available on ebay, mine was.
Here's a general link: http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ftp-ep/pubs/building/res/ht_pmp_water_htrs.pdf
You installation would be a snap with a little flexduct. Requires a drain for the condensate (distilled water).
Forgot to ask what type of heater you have. These are designed to be turned on/off by the tank thermostat. Mine isn't, but that's another story.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 5/15/2007 2:10 pm ET by VaTom
currently I have a fairly new and fairly big gas fired water heater.
It can still work, talk to the company. Great techs. They called Whirlpool for me, didn't get the answer they hoped, but we worked it out.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I appreciate your info on the heat pump water heaters. I am trying to research a little more about these, and there is not much out there. Usually I get a bunch of hits from retailers, but not in this case, which makes me wonder how common a technology this is....
I am going to do some more digging, but I am still going to consider a split type a/c, heat, and air handling system.
Thanks again,
ar
Heat pump water heaters are obscure. Established technology that never really caught on. Partly because the house needs to be configured correctly to fully utilize one. Your house is. I've also never seen anyone promoting the benefits of the byproduct (cool dry air), ever.
Heat pumps have been around almost forever, right? Well these tiny air source units take heat out of the air and put it in the water. It's the byproduct that makes them extremely interesting for some applications. Your dehumidifier condenses water out, but adds heat to the air. Less than ideal. The technology is exactly the same, just different application.
I first learned about them in a Popular Science article from 1980. I've got good files if you want to read.
It was my first question on BT. Nobody had any experience to share. That was 2003 and I doubt things have changed.
Your situation struck me as ideal, or I wouldn't have spoken up. We've got 20,000 cu ft of underground house and it goes a long way toward satisfying an almost identical need to yours. I didn't know it would work so well when I bought a new-old-stock unit on ebay. No warranty. No problems, other than a mismatch with a new water heater. Electronic controls on the Whirlpool are the problem. I wired around it.
Not to be overly pushy, but if I had your house I'd be looking into an additional tank heater if the controls on your gas heater won't work with one. Payback is extremely short. Your hesitation is certainly justified. You don't know me, haven't been here, and I'm suggesting something that almost nobody else is. Pretty funny when you think about it.
That's OK. Whatever your decision, please post. I'm always curious. As I mentioned, my houses have similar needs. KISS works well for me. With no heat or ac system needed, I value simplicity. Passive system would be ideal, but in the meantime heat pump water heaters fill the void. Far better than anything else I've found. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Quieter than your 'fridge
http://us.lge.com/products/model/detail/home%20appliances_air%20conditioners_single-zone_LS120HE.jhtml
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."
-- Thomas Sowell
Split.
Dehumidifies just great and pretty quiet too.
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thanks for all the input.
VaTom - I am afraid that I will have trouble finding someone to install and support this type of system, and I am not real comfortable doing it myself. The house has galvanized pipe, and it could be a nightmare trying to tie this in. If I had a local contractor who was familiar with the heat pump water heaters I would be much more comfortable.
Hackinatit <!----><!----> and EricPaulson <!----><!----> - thanks for the input regarding mini splits systems. This seems like a more traditional route, and one that I will pursue with a local a/c guy. The "Quieter than your 'fridge" does not make me entirely comfortable, however. I am installing this in a room dedicated to watching movies and tv, so the less background noise the better.
I did see that LG makes some interesting systems with an "art" facing on the visible portion of the system, which might help with wife appeal.
thanks again. I always appreciate the help here.
ar
Edited 5/17/2007 4:07 pm ET by ar7499b
I also live in the Chicagoland area and installed a mini split in my office (about 14' x 17' x 10' a few years ago....the thing works GREAT! Dehumidifies in minutes, cools in minutes, and is sooooo quiet.
I installed it myself, could post pictures if you would like.
I live in a bungalow that has radiant heat and am in the process right now of upgrading my electrical service and putting two units on my first floor for cooling. No ductwork on space pack for me.
Paul thanks for the feedback, and I am sorry for the slow response. My whole house has space pak except for the the basement, where my den/theater is.
Do you use it for heat as well? If so, do you have any problems with it being too cold the heat pump to work in winter?
Also, what brand did you buy, and did you get it off the internet? Did you end up having a professional charge the system, or did you just hook it up and go?
I would love a picture to show the wife what this looks like in person.
Thanks for the help,
ar
Do you use it for heat as well? If so, do you have any problems with it being too cold the heat pump to work in winter?
Also, what brand did you buy, and did you get it off the internet? Did you end up having a professional charge the system, or did you just hook it up and go?
This unit is for my office, which is a 17' x 14' addition to my house which had a hot tub in it. I took out the hot tub and converted it to my office. The joker put no heat in the thing except a non ventilating fire place (we have steam radiators and due to elevation, they could not be used in this room, too bad he didn't think about that first).
So I thought I could use it for heat in the winter also.....WRONG. It uses a reverse cycle to extract heat out of the air and bring it inside in the winter, but that just doesn't work when it gets below freezing. The amount of heat in the air relative to the size of the condenser is too far off. The colder outside gets, the less heat it can produce.
They do make mini splits with an electric strip heater, so it converts electrical energy to heat via resistance. You would have to find one specific to that for heating.
I purchased mine off ebay, from AC factory outlet, a Klimare unit. You can find them at http://www.acfactoryoutlet.com.
I just bought two 12000 BTU units from Bon-Aire off ebay, got a great deal, 13.5 SEER, R104A and did a "best offer" and got two units for $625 each plus $135 for shipping to a commercial address. So not bad.
Just go to ebay, go to Home/Air conditioners/other air conditioners and that's where they are listed. One without a heat strip can be had at a great price from Bon-Aire's best offer.....they are the one with the golf club in the picture.
I would stay away from R-22 units (will not be making them in just a few years), and SEER 10 units.
It would do a FANTASTIC job of dehumidifying and cooling......literally will do it in minutes.
If my pictures don't load, hit "refresh" as my server has not been up to snuff lately.
You drill a 2" hole, hang a bracket.....
View ImageView ImageHere is the back side of the unit, condensate drain, freon lines....View ImageHang it on the wall, then wire it up to the outside unit and power....View ImageHere's it coming through....View ImageHere it is sitting on a stand I made without the connections made.View ImageThen once you get this far....you have to hook up the freon lines. It comes pre charged with enough freon in the compressor/condenser for that, and also the evaporator and line set. The freon is all in the condenser unit. I had a AC guy come out, cut the line set to the correct length, braze it together with couplers (versus the quick connect fittings) and then they hook a vacuum pump up to it, evacuate the evaporator, close the valve, and open the valves from the condenser. They adjust the charge with freon they bring on site and you are done. About $120 for the service. The rest I did myself.
I just took a few pictures of the unit today......it cools my office that has no blinds and a 4'x4' skylight with NO problem. I run it with the fan on low, I can hardly hear it with no other noise in my office. My keyboard is about 3 to 4 times louder.....
View ImageView ImageView ImageView Image
Paul thanks a lot for the info and pics. I am going to do a little more research about the units with an electric coil in them, as heating is as important as a/c in our situation.
I appreciate you illustrating how 'simple' the installation can be.
ar