Specing out a new master bath in a Victorian; the bath will be over the living room and a grand piano (as in, evenings listening to home music recitals); the final runs will be outside the house, but there’s a span of 10-20 feet inside the house…
Is Cast Iron still the quiet way to go for those waste runs? If I spec cast iron, am I shooting myself in the foot by also spec’ing a flush-assisted toilet (air- or water-assisted flush, such as “Vacuity” brand)?
You guys are deeply knowledgeable; I’d love to know what your input would be…
Thanks!
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In order of importance:
1) use cast iron. This will greatly reduce the noise of flushing upstairs. This is most important
2) isolate the DWV run from the joists it runs through. Oversize the holes by 1/4" diameter and wrap the pipe in the 1/8" closed-cell foam used between the bottom plate and the foundation (the stuff i use is light green). This is really cheap and easy.
3) a "quiet-flush toilet will help with a more extended flow of fluids.
4) Hang a second lid on resilent channel. I'd say retrofit only if you find it to be a problem, but you have to extend the electrical boxes that light fixtures hang from (or leave enough romex to displace 4" to the side). And while hanging rock is pretty benign; taping, sanding, texturing, and painting is not so nice as a retrofit in an ocuupied house.
Personally I'd do 1 + 2 +3 until the run is below the main floor. But if this is really important to you, spec 1, 2, 3, + 4 from the beginning.
Happy flushing,
I agree with David with one exception.
I cannot tell the difference in sound transmission between rooms that have RC Channel and drywall that is screwed directly to the studs. Rather, I've found myself doubling the 1/2" drywall. This 'mass' seems to do a better job of deadening sound...but as previously stated, you'll have to extend the ceiling lite fixture boxes.
BruceM
I haven't compared RC channel to a double layer of rock. If Bruce says it works better, great. Sure is easy to put up two layers. Just extend your electrical boxes another 5/8". You don't mud, tape, or texture the first (upper) layer. So it costs little more than the materials.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
If you go with double layers of rock for soundproofing, I recommend making the layers different thicknesses, such as 3/8" and 1/2" or 1/2" and 5/8". Sounds will not pass as easily through dissimilar thicknesses of the same material.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Interesting thought, Les
Doubling wall thickness is also a great way to use up scraps. When I'm paying for the material, I don't mind pitching the little stuff....but it bugs me to throw full half sheets of 5/8 drwall into the dumpster!
BruceM
The power flush toilets tend to be noisier than regular toilets, but at least the sound doesn't last as long.
RC channel and acoustical caulk at floor is my choice for sound transmission problems.You can insulate between studs with sound barrier batts (rotten cotton we call it),regular batts help but the stuff made for reducing sound is better.
mike
Thanks!
This is all quite useful advice...And I particularly found the the hints on
1) using cast iron (still)
2) isolating the waste run and staying off the joists
3) using foam
4) and thinking about NOT using a power flush toilet
quite useful!
Thanks to all!
Another remedy is to spray the plumbing with aerosol automobile undercoating, available at your local auto supply house. Heavier than foam, more effective.
Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
Aerosol undercoating?
Really?
Before or after it goes in?
thanks!
Spray after all work is done- messy, but effective.
Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
Best hear those toilets flush before selecting. Have a flush-off.
Was in a hotel in Reno that had those air assist loos. Had an air tank inside the tank. Little did I know. Seemed odd. Had a push button on the lid.
3AM, having a moment of quiet time. Flush. KABOOM. Thought a grenade had gone off. So much for quiet time. Music recital, you say?
BTW - cast iron, most definite. Enjoy. At least nowadays you don't have to use lead, oakum and stike the seams.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Hmmmm... not being a plumber, and just having to spec a cast iron system, I'm interested in what you use in place of lead and oakum in CI piping?Nick
Nick,
Most CI used in new construction is hubless, so you'll use hubless fittings.
While there are a variety of couplings, the more common hubless couplings use a rubber gasket sleeve over the CI. This is covered and compressed by a stainless steel shield and clamp assembly. Some people just use the rubber sleeve and stainless rings clamps, the same design that secure the radiator hoses on your car. The stainless shield provides more uniform support to the gasket.
Don't forget to properly hang and support the CI. Hangers should be within 18" of each joint for lengths up to 10'. For vertical stacks, support the pipe at each floor level.
Yeah, I remember seeing that type of assembly. Here in Cook County, IL, home of the union plumber mafia, they do it the old fashioned way. Takes twice as long and costs three times as much. Oh, and you can forget about plastic.Nick
I have put in a few of those jet flush assisted toilets also, but only in commercial jobs like the racquet club I did.
They are LOUD, you also DO NOT want to flush before standing or you will be missing the family jewels when you get up.
Not sure why you would want a toilet like that--concern about a standard toilet not working? Use a Toto brand low flush toilet, they work quite well. Other brands, not so well.
Who's giving the recitals?
If the piano player is bad, you may just WANT to hear the plumbing instead.
Ha ha ha....Yes, well, the other idea is that one doesn't really want to disrupt the conversations in the living room while using the upstairs facilities...OK, Toto low flush; is there a consensus that these are the best for flush and sound?
(The idea of the pressure flush was to avoid the hassles of low flush toilets when dealing with..hmmm...solids...)
Thanks
Toto seems to be a regional thing. Up here in WA it's a special order. In NorCal they are stocked en masse at the plumbing wholesalers. I like the Promenade... you could toss a brick in there and flush it. No need to get a slammer... it'll ruin the recital whether or not the drains are quiet.
I once did a job where we had an acoustical engineer spec out plumbing isolation parts. He had a nifty source for all sorts of bushings, hangers, etc. If you hang the drains from the framing using metal strapping you're not going to like it. I wish I had saved some of the literature, but I didn't. A little research should turn up some specialty parts for pipe strapping. Condo builders use 'em to keep quiet between units.
An easy wall/ceiling treatment is a rock over soundboard over rock over studs. What someone else posted about two different thicknesses of rock is correct. If you have the ceiling height then install separate, secondary ceiling framing below the floor joists and rock that.
Another vote for Toto.
Easily available in CT.
I put them in my house.
A few years back, Consumers did a ratings of toilets. Briggs Vacuity came up tops I think. I put them in my house and haven't had a problem. But maybe the vacuum assist would disrupt the piano recital below, don't know. It doesn't seem too loud to me.
MERC.
I tried a few of the assist toilets a few years ago. I thought that in terms of being in a master bath and flushing when my bride is asleep, or flushing one downstairs in the half bath that guests use, that the assisted flush would be just a bit too loud upstairs when sleeping or for downstairs when guests are over.
A neighbor has a power-flush model in their "public bath" downstairs, and no one wants to use it when over their house. When you flush, It's like using a megaphone to announce to the whole party that you're done.
I know they're better these days as they have varying levels of "assist", and I'll consider them for an addition on my own house in the next year or two.
Hmmm; I saw the Consumer Reports test as well, and they did say that the Vacuity was as quiet as the Toto. I find this difficult to believe, but then, I don't have a lab dedicated to testing toilets, either.Any other thoughts about this? BTW, the Consumer Reports (from 2002) study suggested that the Toto truly was the best gravity flush toilet; you had to go to a vacuum assist or a pressure assist to beat it in flushing solids or liquid....
So, may be that's the way to go.Thanks for the note on the blast from the pressure assist toilet; yes, seems discourteous to have guests announce they are done with a water-fueled trumpet fanfare...