I have a customer who wants to use radiant heat in his new two story addition. We have pereviously done this on the same house in a small addition slab construction with a Harris-Tarkett laminated floating floor on top. The first floor of the addition will agian be on slab with tile so I have no problem there. The second floor we are thinking about using one of the grooved plywood track systems. I was wondering if anyone has installed a heat job like this and what their thoughts and comments might be.
The customer would then like to use a standard 3/4″ x 2-1/4 oak strip floor over. Again any thoughts. Is the upgrade to quarter sawn really necessary.
Also he is considering bamboo I saw some prefinished bamboo today for the first time. Nice looking stuff. Anyone with bamboo experience out there.
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Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
I'll try to offer some views but I personally have no job experience with radiant heat. All the manufacturers I talk to say NO to radiant heat and solid hardwood floors with the exception being quarter sawn--some even go as far as saying no here too. Their reluctance boils down to "we have no control over how the radiant heat is being used" Another words excessive temps don't work and neither do people that are unfamiliar with how the heating systems should operate or what type is being used.
Engineered products are another option, but not all manufacturers will warrant their products over radiant heat--floating systems seem to be the exception. It goes back to the lack of control. Jim "Cloud Hidden" has the most experience with bamboo and radiant heat. NOT ALL BAMBOO manufacturers will warrant a floor with radiant heat either.
Some manufacturers that will warrant glueing or nailing with radiant heat include Owens Plank floor(engineered) and Junckers(solid floater) I'm learing more on the subject because I get the question asked so many times. If anyone has any other tidbits to offer I'm all ears.
Ken Fisher
Hardwoodinstaller.com
It really comes down to calculating how much heat loss the envelope will allow, compared to how much heat the floor system will put out, and then the installation of controls that keep the heat source, floor system, occupants and finished flooring material happy.
It is NOT rocket science. There are many good software programs that make calculating the heat loss a breeze. It's simply a matter of taking insulation values, amount and R-value of glazing, exterior versus interior walls, etc, and then aiming for a system that will comfortably, economically, and quietly heat the space without exceeding 80* - 85* floor surface temp, which is what most manufactures seem to allow for.
That being said, there are so many rule-of-thumb designed systems out there that either don't heat adequately or scorch the floor while doing it that I don't blame the flooring guys at all for being leery of warrentying anything over a heated floor.
The goals are:
Keep the fluid supply temperatures as low as possible.
Keep the delta between fluid supply and return temperatures as low as possible
In order to do that, you really have to be much more anal about the total design than you do with forced air or even baseboard/radiator systems.
Fortunatly there are really alot of great resources, knowlegable vendors and contractors out there so you don't have to re-invent the wheel to design and build a good system. Combine that with the high attention to detail that most BT participants seem to possess, and there's no excuse for not gettin er done.
I appreciate the input from both of you. The room that we did a few years back was Harris-Tarkett Longstrip. I remember an issue about the species of wood even though it was an engineered product. I was really ticked off at my supplier to. The supplier (which is a strictly hardwwod flooring supply house) was completely informed about the project and heat type. The customer chose a Harris Tarkett oak. When I opened the box and glanced over the instructions right there in bold type it stated that this species was not recomended over radiant. My supplier actually tried to give me a hard time about taking it back (special order). I laid into them (I hate to have to do that) and eventually they agreed. We ended up with a Brazillian cherry I think in the same product. It's been down for several years and is still perfect.
Luckily this customer is a bright guy who understands things. I have no concern about him using the system properly. I also have a very competant heating supply so I know that the design will be right.
I just like to hear about experiences from the guys at the installation end of the business.
BTW I made a few calls this morning and was supprised at how realtvely inexpensive bamboo is. $3.45 to $3.60 for a 5/8 x 3-1/2 prefinished product. I would love to see a whole floor down I bet it looks great.
I wasn't really ranting at you, just for the general good.
FWIW, I've installed Bruce pre-finished 3/4" X 2 1/4" maple over a plywood and AL plate sandwich with 1/2" Mr. PEX in the grooves, running 110* fluid under nearly constant circulation. Floor surface 76*. Flooring was aclimatized for ~ two weeks before nailing down in the middle of August (yes the worst month). Absoutly no buckling or gapping yet.
In the living room, same sandwich, but have cork 12" X 36" floating...also no buckling or gapping.
Both manufacturers say OK with max of 85* surface.
I didn't take is as ranting, Thanks again.
With bamboo, because so much of it (practically ALL) is put together in China you need to be careful about both species (some are really hard, some are not) and formaldehyde offgasing. This is where brand becomes important, and the cheap bamboo may both be an inferior species, as well as being done with higher formaldehyde content glues. I have no basis in fact for this, but my little voice tells me that over radiant heat the formaldehyde in the glue will be more of an issue, at least for the first couple of years.
Des,
I have radiant in my upstairs that I put in with the plumber. Well I did all the panels with help from a friend, the plumber did the rest. Once it was installed and pressure tested it was put into service. The plumber did the heat lost to figure out what was needed and he choose to use stadler-vega climate panels.
As for the finished floors we used Azuvi tile in one bath and Jasba tile in the other. The rest of the floor is 3-1/4" pre-finished engineered yellow birch by Mirage. The wood flooring is only 3/8" total with a wear level that is about 3/16". I purchased the material from a local flooring store. They had a contractor install it after I had both come to the job to see what they would be dealing with. I wanted it glued but the installer said he'd only nail it, but by that time I had already purchaced it. No problem where you see the runs of tubing but when they turn you need to be careful.
No problems as of the 1st year, we realy enjoy the heat.
Now for some tips that I learned from doing the job and from the plumber.
1. Remember that the tubes need to have a loop that can't be interupted, and have max distances based on the area they are to heat. So i would try to go shorter rather than longer for any loop that is parallel to an exterior wall.
2. Don't get too close to the wax ring for the toilet. Do you want to heat the space under the cabinet? Do you really want to heat the closet if it makes the lay out tougher than nessesary?
3. Consider placing tubes behind a wall for a vertical heating surface if you do not have enough floor space. Like a shower wall, or where you'll place the towels to dry. Maybe even under the Jacuzzi.
4. Try to avoid placing tubes in any area that may require fastening once the floor is in place. I mapped out my dura-rock prior to screwing it to the sub-floor.
5. Because my walls were already up and plastered before putting down the panels, I had to get all of the loops though doorways. I went though any wall that I could but it was tough.
6. Make sure that you wear goggles when cutting the floor panels because the aluminum chip really fly.
7. Have a vacuum ready to clean the grooves prior to putting in the tubes and have something tp protect them when working on top of them.
8. Lastly, the thinner wood will probably alow for better heating, less insulation due to thickness, and because it is engineered much less prone to movement. It can be installed a few different ways, just be careful with the glue and pex don't know if it would degrade the tubing.
9. Lastly (squared), my plumber would NOT install the radiant without an outdoor sensor that will begin to call for heat well before you think you need it. He did not want the home owner have water going though that was too hot thus causing problem with the floor.
I hope this has helped, let me know if you have any questions.
Turtleboy
PS. If i were to use 3/4" wood I'd go with the quarter sawn due to it's being more stable and more money, and I'd consider both cork and baboo as well.
I used radiant on my house. I was reluctant to use wood in a sandwich like the groove material would be. I ended up using Kahrs engineered floating floor and putting the PEX tubes below the Advantex sub floor with foil faced insulation (face up) below.
This worked great and gets around the floor recommended 85 degree limits. I think the only disadvantage might be a slightly higher operating cost. The heat is set at any of the 4 zones and up to the set point in 15 minutes or so.
The operating costs are far lower than a previous 16 year old house the same size with FHW baseboard. The Kahrs floor has the same amount of wood available to sand as a 3/4" t&g floor.
Charlie,
The Kahrs that you used, was it the "snap together" planks that are about 8' long? Does it sound hollow when walking on it? I almost got it but the wife liked the finish of the Mirage.
Thanks in advance turtleboy
Good information guys! Thanks:)Per the hollow sound; I think many get confused with the hollow sound of a thin laminate floor. With engineered floaters, most are at least 5/8" in thickness so it's not as noticable as laminate floors. Many will not notice it if they aren't expecting it. Kahrs is a great product--they started the floating floor business--and now offers more than floating floors including a great looking prefinished square edge herringbone product in six different species--gluedown only.Mirage was a beauty until they started making all those short lengths in their engineered line.
The manufacturer of the flooring will rate their product for application over hydronic heat ... or not. They will also call out a maximum temperature for the subfloor surface, usually around 85 degrees. If the engineered plank floating floor is installed correctly, laid on a sub-membrane, it will expand and contract as a unit. Be certain you leave the perimeter gap called for by the manufacturer.
The High Desert Group LLC