OK, here’s the background info: I’ve got a small (42′ x 24′) foot rectangular ranch and it’s either addition time or divorce time. We love the property and location so moving is out. Money is tight and I understand that going up can be more cost effective than adding on with more foundation, etc. I am thinking of removing the present roof system and adding a half story on top of the present structure. Hiring a crew is out of the question, and we will be living there throughout the project.
Present roof is a 6 pitch, and we will be replacing it with a 12 pitch. I’ve got several new addition roofs in a couple years of residential construction experience that makes me think I can handle it. Then again it might be just enough experience and knowledge to be dangerous so that’s why I’m here looking for advice from you gurus.
The house has roof trusses, fiberglas shingles, and a currently non-load bearing wall (I believe because of the truss roof) running essentially down the length of it. This wall is positioned directly over the center carrying beam which in turn is resting on piers. Foundation is block w/ a crawlspace. The new half story would be used for a new bedroom, storage space, and possibly a small home office, ie. relatively light loading.
My thinking is to leave the present roof structure in place and sister the new floor joists onto the bottom chord of the trusses, thus leaving something remaining for the existing drywall ceilings to cling onto. This, I believe, I can do while the existing roof is still dried in.
I would next remove a strip of roof sheathing over the exterior walls and set the new rafters in and build the new roof. With this method the rafters would rest on the wall top plates without use of a rim joist. It seems that being able to walk on the old roof while building the new roof would be a great advantage. Once the new roof is dried in the old roof could be taken apart and passed out through the lee ward side gable end.
My question(s) for you guys is: does this sound feasable or am I setting myself up for disaster? Can you provide any tips? Would I be better off just buying a huge tarp, rip off the old roof, install rim boards and joists and start “clean”?
Replies
I like your idea, although I have never used this method I have contemplated it many times. I guess the right situation has to arise for it to work. It seems to me that you have it well thought out , my only advice is to take your time especially if you will be working alone.
Your way sounds complicated, and I don't think you'd be too successful keeping the rain out - some will always get through somewhere. I think you'll have serious problems saving your ceiling drywall too - Too much vibration, pieces of wood falling one, ect.
I think it would be better to rip the old roof and trusses off, and replace them with new attic trusses. I don't think you'd save much money stick-framing by yourself - trusses can be had for cheap. Plus if you decide to stick frame, you'll need a helper the whole time because it looks as though you're going to span 24' at 12/12 pitch, which makes your rafters at least 17' long. You'd need help and a crane to install new attic trusses, but they'd go up quick and you could start sheathing immediately.
One of my partners put a second floor on his house. It took us three days with a skilled crew of six. The first day we removed the roofing which was metal barn roofing on purlins. We sistered 2x10's to the bottom chord of the trusses. We refastened the roofing with 1/4 or less of the screws. The next day (actually ten days later) we removed the roofing, cut out the trusses, sheathed the floor and framed the exterior walls. The third day we set trusses, sheathed and papered the roof. We finished with plenty of time to hit golf balls off the ridge at the end of the day.
A few nail pops in the ceiling were the only problem with the sheetrock.
Should you do this? Not without plenty of help and some of it skilled. You need to have someone in charge who can keep the project moving and this person needs to be very experienced not only in framing but in organizing a large crew.
I've done a similar, but smaller project. Fifteen minutes after I raised the first wall it started raining and didn't quit for 3 days. All the water ran in at the wall. There was no way to stop it, just control it. You've got a good idea, but you'll need some help.
Bad time of year to start this. I started in June, got rained on in July, and I'm still working at it. Doing it all myself, replacing lots of termite damage -- all the double top plates in the affected area -- sistering all the ceiling joists, lots of blocking....
My advice would be to save up your vacation time and wait for the first good weather in the spring. BTW, where is this located? Do you have a reliably dry summer like we're supposed to here in LA?
-- J.S.
Several thought to bounce in heere before I read the rest of the responces -
My first impression is that you might be wiser to do with a side addition since you are working alone and under budget. That way, if failure or something close to that looms, your whole life won't be at jeapardy.
The joists would have to be 24' free span if indeed the interior wall is non- load bearing, and that would make them expensive, not simple 2x10s
You would have to devotre a percentage of both floor levels to a stairwell, losing as much as a third of what you add. This cuts into the efficiency quocient.
all those reservations out of the way, I did do something similar once. I cut slots in the roof to place studs alongside the existing roof rafters and built the second storey roof before dismanteling the original roof in under.
You might want to look into the idea of having trusses built for your uplift project. You could cut into the old roof the day before they are delived and have them set with a boom truck into the slots, and have it sheathed and dry by end of next day, with luck. Same day with a crew.
Excellence is its own reward!
With all the other suggestions/advice considered and appreciated, I thought the idea of cutting slots next to the existing trusses and craning in new trusses next to them was making a lot of sense, especially considering the speed aspect.
Adding on horizontally also makes for a good argument, but going up is still my first choice since it would provide us with more room (stairway space efficiency notwithstanding) as well as greatly enhance the overall look of the place. Right now we're living in Tennessee Redneck Shoebox, and I think that by altering the roof line we can turn it into a facsimile of a Tennessee Damn Yankee Cape, a style with which we would be much happier (my apologies to the TN natives, we do love the land and people here).
In addition, the present shingles need replacing, the sheathing is saggging, there is no felt under the shingles, etc. and I really have to question the integrity of the present roof structure altogether. (side note: a former contractor buddy did the home inspection before we bought, and we obviously got what we paid for. It was later confirmed that he is/was indeed a friendless, ignorant, dishonest hack teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and wondering why...but I digress) In short, it seems that we can remedy a lot of problems as well as sleep easier at night by going up.
A question: in contemplating your method, I am thinking of cutting slots next to each exiting truss, and then bracing each section of truss/sheathing/shingles to each other with 2X4s so that they don't fall over (actually bracing as I went). This would be performed before the crane arrives. Then, when each new truss is craned in, removing the temporary bracing, dropping the truss in, then putting the brace back on. The bracing would then remain in place until the new sheathing and permanent bracing is on. Does that sound similar to your method and/or does it sound feasable?
Other questions include: can one add small dormers when using trusses and if so how is it done? Also, how does one build a stairwell up through an attic-trussed floor without cutting through the bottom chords? If code sez a stairway needs to be 3 ft. wide minimum and the trusses are on 2 ft spacing there must be some kind of method by which it is done.
Any advice or warnings would be welcome.
Gary
I didn't mean slots all the way up the roof. That destabilizes your structuyre and weather envelope. I was talking about a slot about 3" wide by maybe ten inches long(verticle) next to each of your existing trusses over the top plate of the wall to insert a truss base.
What I had in mind was a gambrel roof styule at the timne but this attachment shows how it could work with a cape style. The p[urple triangle represents your existing roof truss top. The blue where your floor joists would go, and the dark blue is the truss outline. It can be built with a leg/heel lift, I would think. Boss is the truss man, I work with sticks myself..
Excellence is its own reward!
Cutting slots in the existing roof seems like a tremendous amount of work. Why not just tear off the whole roof and get it out of the way? You have to remove it anyway eventually. It will be a lot easier if you don't have 2' O.C. trusses in your way.
To answer a couple of your questions:
"can one add small dormers when using trusses and if so how is it done? "
You double up the trusses on each side of the dormer, and "ladder frame" between them. The general rule of thumb is a double truss for up to a 6' opening, and a triple truss for up to a 10' opening.
"how does one build a stairwell up through an attic-trussed floor without cutting through the bottom chords?"
Same as for a dormer - Double up trusses around the opening, and hand frame between them.
The drawing Piffin made presents some interesting possibilities. I've done similar things with scissor trusses before. One guy built a kneewall around the heels of the existing trusses, set new scissor trusses on top of that, then removed the old roof after the scissor trusses (and new roof) were in place.
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend trying this while you're living there, and without help. At least if you plan to stay married after this is all over........Second place is the first loser [Mance Bowden]
I woold do it like so:
first, sister, your joists as planned, except you may have to have them poke through the roof.
second... replace the gang-nail plates at the heel's of the trusses with special, hinged-adjustable, gang plates. Boss Hog will tell you where to get them.
third... at the peak of the roof, tear off the first 12" of roofing and sheathing(or sheeting),at both front and back slopes. You can cut it off if you want. Use a worm-drive saw on the front slope, and a sidewinder saw at the back slope. That should satify both the east and west coast eye-balls out there .
forth... cut though the gang-plate at the peak of the truss with a metal-cutting blade in your sawzall. Just follow the joint between the two top chords where they meet.
fifth.. get youself,..lets see, 21 auto bumper jacks( that's 42 feet divided by two feet o.c.), stick them in the saw-kerf at the peak, (one per truss), and spread the two roof slopes apart. Here's the best part...THE ROOFING AND SHEATHING STAY'S ON!!!
..... just keep spreading them apart till you get your 12 in 12.
now just sister something on the trusses to extend the two slopes, sheet it.. shingle...done.
He doesn't have a crew. How's he supposed to crank 21 bumper jacks synonomously? ( second question - is synonomously a word?).
Excellence is its own reward!
yes, synonymous is a word , but it makes no sense in the context in which you have placed it. Simultaneous would be more appropriate, and bumper jacks can be pumped, jacked, or levered, but not cranked, as this implies a circular motion. Lots of luck.
If you have the room on the property I think an addition would be a whole lot less money than the hassle youre talking about going through...Been there/done that.
If you're allowed to dig a trench footing then you can do it yourself.
My feeling is that it'd look better and cost less....although I shouldn't say look better cause I don't know the design you have in mind ...but my gut feeling is that youre simply just gonna go up.
Be well
andy
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When your fear of death changes, the way you live your life changes.
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I knew I came to the right place!
After reading all these great replies, I talked to the local truss guru and I'm leaning in that direction. My truss ignorance is showing, as I did not really comprehend the fact that they can be designed to incorporate a variety of features i.e. true load bearing bottom chords, stand-up room in the middle, etc. My "knowledge" of trusses was that they were made out of 2X4s and were used in cheapo tract houses and garages. Goes to show that ignorance is not bliss.
Thanks for all the input. I'm sure I'll be back.
Gary
My Sister and BIL did something roughly like what you're proposing. We tore the old roof off in 8' sections, starting at one end. Then we framed up the 2nd floor walls and roof over that 8' section.
By the time we added plywood and black paper, that was all we could do in one day. We used a tarp to seal the gap between the new 2 story section and the old one story roof. It weathered several rains before it was all shingled with no major problems.
It wasn't too bad a job, but was labor intensive. You could do more or less the same using attic trusses. By all means if you do it, post pictures.Every leader needs to look back once in a while to make sure he has followers
Well this sure is a good example of the downside of framing a house with trusses instead of stick framing. Rafters and joists might be more expensive when the house is built initially, but they sure give future homeowners a lot more options for adding dormers and such.
Seems to me that is one of the big problems with our transient society, where houses are just seen as commodities, not homes. A young couple buys a house planning to move into another by the time they need more room, instead of looking at the expandability of a small house as their needs change.
I know you folks back in New England don't see this as much as people out west, but it's kind of interesting to think about.
ok gents, I'm back after a week being off line while moving my office.
I've considered all the good suggestions (especially the idea of craning a pre-built roof onto the structure) but I'm still leaning towards a combination of Mr. Piffin's and Mr. Boss Hog's ideas i.e. working my way across the house using trusses and doing a section at a time.
After spending some face time with the local truss guru at the best lumber yard in town (locally owned, not one of the box-full-o-retards type operations), it turned out that he had done a similar job on his mother-in-law's house a couple of years ago using a very similar method. He worked out several scenario's and truss designs that will---in the end---provide us with a likeable finished product. The one I am exploring further is using scissor trusses on top of a knee wall and 2x10s for the floor. This would entail using the cutting-slots-at-the-eaves method described by Piffin and the increment approach used by Boss Hog in his earlier project. By drying in a section at a time, the weather issue can be minimized. I realize that this is not the ideal time of year to start this kind of thing but other factors intervened to push it off until now. On the other hand, is there any better time of the year to spend a week or so up on the roof what with the crisp air, warm sunshine and turning leaves?
I will have some help, it's just that while most of it will be enthusiastic, it will cross nearly the entire skill and experience level spectrum. And while leaving the existing roof somewhat intact will involve moving at a slower pace and involve more labor to remove it in the end, I think that the advantage of having it there to walk on will be an enormous safety advantage. In this particular case, labor is somewhat cheap (i.e. food and beer afterwards) so I can afford to string out the process if necessary.
In any event, I'll try to put up some pictures so that if the opportunity arises, you guys can say "I told you so..." :-)
"...not one of the box-full-o-retards type operations"
I find your use of the word "retard" offensive. Just because we sweat, spit and swear don't mistake us for a bunch of insensitive goof balls who think it's okay to deride others for something beyond their control.
Whoa, easy there Jim. Are you a home depot/lowes employee? I'm referring to those big box stores where one can rarely find anyone to provide customer service, and if he does, he will often be provided with incorrect information. From what I've seen previously on this site my opinion is somewhat mild.
Am I making or do I make fun of someone who has a real handicap. No, that's not right. Am I voicing frustration about the lack of competent and/or professional and/or courteous help at the big boxes? You betcha. I'm handicapped in a physical way myself. And as such, I'm also compassionate towards folks who are truly handicapped. I am however not and and never will be politically correct. If you were offended, you'll have to deal with it. Hey, this sounds like a good topic that's more appropriate for the Woodshed :-)
"Am I making or do I make fun of someone who has a real handicap. No, that's not right."
That's like saying it's okay to call someone a "n_gger" if they are not African American. The very fact that you use the word as a derisive descriptor shows your lack of sensitivity to others around you.
And this is the perfect place to call you on it, as this is where you did it. That is unacceptable language - here, or anywhere. Now I tried to keep this low by saying that I was offended, taking the focus off of you. But the fact is, you've offended a great many people here who are just far too polite to say anything. Luckilly I suffer no such affliction.
Everyone makes mistakes. Take a deep breath and think about this for a second. If you can't see how using that word in ANY context is offensive I'll be surprised. It has absolutely nothing to do with "political correctness". It's simply crude language, by any reasonable measure.
Now that you've given me credit, I hope it goes well, or while they are saying, "I told you so" my name will be mud around here.
Just for information, I had a brother with mental retardation and I took no offense to your use of the term. I understood no malice in it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Up here in the Great White North, where summer is 45 seconds long some years, we've learned to do this real fast. Here's how:
Step 1. Design your new roof, whether trusses or rafters.
Step 2. Build the new roof in the side yard, on the ground, right next to the house. Install the subfloor and everything, but leave yourself a way to get to where you'll need to to nail it on top of the house later. Brace it temporarily so it won't flex or twist laterally or any other way.
Step 3. Cut the old roof free from the walls of the house with a sawzall. Make sure you get all the nails/connectors (buy lots of blades for the sawzall hee hee). Cut small access slots right below the gable walls in the sheathing, so you can lace hoisting slings through from side to side, perpendicular to the trusses.
Step 4. Call in a crane. Lace in the slings (good idea to tell the crane guy what length slings to bring with him). Remove the old roof. Put it in the garbage can, or give it to someone who wants it. Or put it in the backyard as a teepee for the kids. Whatever.
Step 5. Hoist the new roof into place and nail it down where it needs to be nailed down.
Step 6. Remove your temporary bracing, and start finishing your new second story.
Elapsed time--well, if all goes well, you should be about ready to break for lunch. The crane operator will charge you a half day.
Have fun.
It works. No joke.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Good suggestions but this guy is doing an Add-a-level by himself. He would loose his whole house.
Joe Carola
Joe, if he can get three or four guys for one day to do that, he'll have it made. Even if he has to call the Hall, he should be able to stand it for one day. Otherwise he's in budget dreamland already....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I agree with you 100%. Doing jobs like this is no joke even with a crew.
Joe Carola
You're right. But I've seen more and more done like this each year, a lot of it new construction, even small commercial. I would think guys with pre-fab set-up experience would be a good resource for this kind of a project. And obviously, the crane jockey has gotta be A1.
Coupla years ago a local restaurant bumped up their roof exactly this way. They built the new roof in the parking lot in front of the place, yanked off the old one and dropped it on a flat bed to be hauled down the street a couple of hundred yards to a vacant lot where they had room to break it up with a shovel and mash it into a dumpster, and then hoisted the new one in place. They were literally done by lunch break. Crew of 5, including the crane driver. Roof is about 40x70, by eyeball.
Drew quite a crowd, too.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
That's the most condensed, effiecient, to the point posting i have ever seen you make..
Excellence is its own reward!
Which one?! Tell me, quick! I'll go back and add a coupla pages....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Good post. Machinery is cheap. Labor is expensive.
Yeah, and this way he can build the whole roof himself, working pretty much at ground level, at his own pace. When it's ready, wait for a sunny day, no wind, and whammo. Whaddya figure for four carps for one day plus a crane for half a day? Less than $2 grand? One bad rain storm while he's uncovered doing it the standard way and mother nature can do that much (uninsured!) damage in half an hour....
Worst part of the job would be if his old roof is held on with plate connectors. They're hell to cut. Other than that, it's just a game of nerves....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The most important thing with that method is to measure right. When the big day comes, the old roof gets trashed, the new one lowers into place, and it better fit right.... ;-)
-- J.S.
Yes, exactly. It's almost equivalent to dropping an existing house on a new foundation. This is why I recommended to someone in another thread that he pour the foundation under the existing house, so he could set up the forms to points located by plumb bobs at the corners. Unfortunately, there's no way to do that in a unitized roof replacement.
You do have a bit more slack in a roof replace than when dropping a house, though, because the roof generally is larger than the house and overhangs by a foot or three in all directions. But I would definitely build the roof so there were no bird's mouths, heh, heh, heh....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Hey Guys,
First the disclaimer: I am not a carp but I had a partial second story added on my home.
Could he build the gable walls and have a structural ridge set? This would not take long and give a tent for the big blue tarps. Then he would be somewhat weather tight and can frame without always looking at the sky for rain clouds.
Just curious, how long would it take a crew to demo, frame, sheath and paper the roof?
Critique at will.
J.
Well, here we go.
Cut roof where firstfloor plate line is,frame secondfloor walls on existing roof and stand them up(must be careful of layout of studs so they don't drop on joist, elect.,etc.)Plumb and brace walls.
Sheat walls from scafolding(real bitch sometimes)
Frame and shingle roof.
Feltpaper works great to water proof any openings until shell is water tight.
Now the real work comes...
You have to tear off the roof(under cover and out of the weather)and throw it out a window and install your floor joist.
Not the fastest way to build a secondfloor addition,but the safest when bad weather is looming.
Worked for a contractor in Chicago and this was all he did,dormers and secondfloor additions.Never lost a firstfloor from water damage,but it was hard work and the crew all knew their jobs and what was next.This is a BIG issue when weather can take out your house, and believe me it can take out your whole house.
Might want to bite the bullit.and have an experienced crew build the shell and you take it from there.Luck