Has any one had hands on exposure to the “Royal Building Systems”
plastic concrete form construction technique or know anyone whose
been there done that.Building soon; looking for info from the trenches.
Has any one had hands on exposure to the “Royal Building Systems”
plastic concrete form construction technique or know anyone whose
been there done that.Building soon; looking for info from the trenches.
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Replies
Greetings WIP,
As a first time poster Welcome to Breaktime.
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.
Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
Thanks for the welcome razzman.Iv'e met the main men from RBS
at the "World of Concrete" in L.A in january, so iv'e looked the system
over pretty well.Looks good in theory but I'd like someone whose
got down and dirty for a reality check.
Tks WIP
There are a number of posts for Royal Building in the archives.
If you scroll down in the lower left corner of your screen there is a search function that will take you to previous threads dealing with whatever you type in the search bar.
If you type in 'Royal Building' you'll get a supply of data from those old threads.
Edited 4/7/2005 1:24 am ET by the razzman
Edited 4/7/2005 1:25 am ET by the razzman
I used the Royal Wall system for a stem and retaining wall that varied from 5-8' tall about 80' long. It sat on a grade beam that followed the natural slope, as steep as 30%. It made a lot of sense for this application since it would have wasted a lot of lumber to conventionally form, did not have to be stripped after the pour, did not need waterproofing, and will not need painting or repainting.
The only thing that made it a little bit of a hassle in this case was each section had to but cut so the horizontal holes lined up for rebar, which we slid in every 16". We braced it by drilling ¾" thru-holes every meter (39.37", or every 3rd section) and inserted PVC pipe. We then used 2x8 lumber screwed together to form an "L" shape and 5/8" all-thread to bolt the lumber assembly to both sides. This kept the top of the wall straight and gave us something to attach a cat-walk to so the crew could pour and vibrate. Some of these holes are being used to attach railing along the retaining wall section.
RBS recommends against vibrating but I don't believe that we could get adequate consolidation without it in this wall. Two horizontal #5 rebar in an 8" core plus the occasional overlapping splice makes it hard to get concrete in without vibration. We used a small pensile vibrator, which did result in a small bulge between the vertical webs. You can feel the bulges, but it is very difficult to see them as the vertical seams are more noticeable. There was no hint of bulging sufficient to cause a blow-out.
I tapped every square foot of the wall with a rubber mallet after the pour and could not find any voids. You get a little gray water oozing from the seams when you vibrate so you get a good indicator - moving slowly, 2-3 seconds per square foot.
I am using ICF for the house above. I would not want the "look" of the Royal Wall system on highly visible sections of a house, but it looks really good from a distance (the other side of a canyon). I understand that their biggest application is car-wash structures. You may also want to investigate P2 Concrete Forming Systems at: http://www.p2forms.com/
Appreciate the input cjd-exactly the type of info I am looking for.
Especially your comments on the appearance.I heard of a
contractor in florida who built both low end and high end using RBS.
The low end was left as is - the high end stuccoed and drywalled.Your
observations explain that.ICF's on RBS never thought of that one.I
would have thought that timewise and costwise it would have worked
to have gone right to the topplate with RBS maybe in one pour then
stucco and dry wall as you have to do with icf 's anyhow.
However you have done it and I have'nt so maybe i'm missing
something.One thing that I do like about the RBS sys is that having
the insulation on the outside of the concrete thermal mass make it a
thick mass house.Computer modelling of this type of structure that I
have seen give it a advantage summer or winter over every other
except perhaps a thin mass house that uses passive solar.
More research required as per usual.
Thanks for the link I had not seen these forms before.
WIP
The reasons I didn't go to the rafters with the insulated version of RBS is the insulation is only 2" thick, strength, ease of attaching drywall and siding, imbed electrical, etc. ICF provides 5" of foam and continuous attach points top-to-bottom every 6". RBS would require concrete fasteners for attaching outside. The reduction of concrete thickness from 8-6" on the insulated version would also make it difficult to meet the structural requirements of the portion of the wall that is functioning as a retaining wall. The first floor is a walk-out basement.
The thermal mass advantage is highly dependant on your climate. You want un-insinuated thermal mass in areas where the daytime and nighttime temperatures fluctuate above and below the desired internal temperature most of the year. If your climate is cooler or warmer for more than a one day in a row, outside insulation will slow the cycling time of the thermal mass.
Royal wall, like every technology, has its place; but it would not be my first pick for a residence. Having worked with both, I would go ICF for the living areas any day. Having to stucco the Royal wall would have dramatically reduced its cost effectiveness as a retaining and stem wall in my application.
How do they attach stucco to the RBS system without resorting to concrete fasteners? I can't imagine trusting the adhesive strength of acrylic modified stuccos to last long term on vinyl.
I have drawings of this project posted in .pdf format if you are interested: http://www.n8.com/surfwood/delucchi-residence.pdf
Concerning thermal mass-in a climate where nighttime temps drop to a comfortable level by nightime venting an externally insulated thick mass structure the insulation is bypassed and the internal temp drops to a near morning low.Closing up in the morning keeps the internal temp below the outdoor.In winter once you have pumped enough Btu,s into the structure to hit a good temp the flywheel effect keeps it close.I understand that they have pulled the plug on a house of this type and for the first day or two not much temp drop.After that your living in a concrete box and probably wishing you,d built with sips with R50 in the walls and near zero thermal mass.I would imagine that any secondary heating plant after failure of the primary would be not have enough output to raise the structure to decent temp .Charles Wing in his book"Breaking new ground" covers some of this using a computer modelling program he developed.As to the gyproc issue rbs say that you don,t have to drill it to hang it.The seams provide a place to placedrywall screws provided they don,t penetrate more than 1/2" in.An exception is if you use insulated rbs in inside garage wall where fire regs require concrete penetration to hang it.RBS recommends drillingit green.They do have stucco system they recommend (its 5 layerswith embedded reinforcing material-less than 1/8" thick total) but wether you trust it or not I guess is your judgement call.It seems to me to be a lot of work/money when it is'nt needed for weather protection ,only for aesthetics.My guess is that you did'nt find the rbs appealing as is , because it is semigloss and not flat.I would think that a textured paint job would produce an acceptable finish-similar to the stucco finish other than the vertical seams which I don't believe I would object to.I would prefer to test this theory out on a house other than my own first.It is possible that the same done internally might obviate the need to drywall.The wiring concerns would seem to be taken care of by the vertical raceways that can be placed in the forms.Somebody out there has done all this maybe many times.
MRR WIP