Hi Folks:
Time for me to ask some questions for a change and I don’t know much about real estate, specifically mountain real estate. I’m looking to buy between 5 and 20 acres in the Georgia mountains(Ellijay- Blue Ridge area) over the next few months. Besides access to roads and power what other things should I be prepared to ask an agent. I probably won’t build on it for two years.
Thanks for any guidance you can offer.
Replies
What are the chances the lot will perc for septic? That's the next thing I would look at, although I don't know if your realtor will be able to give you a usable answer on that. Maybe talk to some septic guys for preliminary info, but thereare no guarantees until you do a test. What are the well depths in the area?
These two can tack on quite a bit of extra expense depending on the design (septic) and depths (well) needed.
Certainly no expert in Georgia, but in Va the neighbors grant- or refuse- easements for elec and phone, not necessarily the same easement. I've known (ignorant) Realtors who gave bad advice in this area.
Access here can be equally tricky. First property I started to buy, 100 ac a mile from the state road, my attorney assured me I had a prescriptive easement. Not a deeded easement, but one established by use and the fact that land-locked land is prevented by state law. Turns out, there's an argument to be made. And the winner, if there's an argument, is usually the one with deeper pockets for legal fees. I faced an argument. The Realtors involved had no idea this could be a problem.
Land I ultimately bought has state road frontage. Took one year (before closing) to get the utility easements from the neighbors. Had to figure out how to scare the crap out of the closest one first.
Here, the Dept of Trans has to approve all driveway entrances. That's based on vehicle speed and sight distance. I've been unable to determine if they actually have ever denied entrance to a property, but it's possible.
Depending on how rural your area is, zoning might be a major issue. I'm about to experience re-zoning of my rural land. The new rules say: 1) there will be no road-building to areas like I live in (mountains), 2) my house cannot be expanded, 3) there will be no additional houses built on the property. Had I done nothing, I faced an investment loss of upwards of $1m from lost building sites. 30,000 acres of my county are affected.
Septic and water are the last issues. No building permit here until you "prove" water. Rainwater catchment is not proof. If you bought an unperkable site, you're SOL. Literally.
There's a lot that can (and does) go wrong with buying rural property. Especially if you are delaying building. It's also a great place to live, by far the best for us.
Good luck.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hardwood,
I'm a mortgage lender in Atlanta and do some properties in the N. Ga. mountains from time to time as 2nd homes for my customers.
The first thing you have to do is find a realtor who's experienced with these rural properties. The rules can be very different when compared to buying in your standard subdivision.
Access - for you, your water, your power et al - is your first concern. And if your prospective property backs up to a National Forest (as many of the most attractive properties do in that area ) you may only have one or maybe two directions from which an easement can come. The laws in Georgia make it almost impossible for someone to leave you entirely landlocked, but it can take time and money to win the battle.
Also, keep in mind such things as fire protection if you'll be borrowing any of the money for this transaction. We had a community recently that basically bought a small island and wanted to build on it. No one would lend money until the fireboat was purchased and a volunteer fire dept. was commisioned. An oddity, to be sure, but the sort of thing to keep in mind when dealing with rural properties.
Soil perc is rarely a problem in this part of the world, but its certainly something to keep in mind. Again, a knowledgable realtor and some due diligence on your part are key.
Good luck.
Jay
Hey Thanks Guys!
Who handles a perc test? Is that something that is generally done by the owner of the property or do I schedule and pay for it? With the small amount of research I've done so far I've heard some things about soil testing(same as perc test?) as well in regards to what's underneath the property.
Tests depend on local convention. In my county in NC, the county has taken over all septic and well issues. You lay out the house with stakes and they determine the appropriate place (if any) for the septic, and after that's installed, they tell you where you can drill for a well. They also do the septic design and inspect it during installation. Costs 500ish. Buyer's obligation, be/c the system (and approval) depend on the size and placement of the intended house. That's a lot to go through prior to purchasing a property, especially when they're running a 5 week backlog. Just sold a property and this dragged the sale out a month longer than either party preferred.Don't expect that the realtor will necessarily give you good info. Do all the research yourself to be certain. Look into all utilities, not just power. Phone, cell service (notoriously inconsistent in the mountains), cable. As an example, Cingular serves our entire valley....except for a few hundred yard radius where a peak blocks the tower, creating a dead zone. If you really wanna go above and beyond, check distances to suppliers. My steel supplier is only 5 miles away, but now charges $50 for each delivery to that area of the mountain. Adds up.
"Don't expect that the realtor will necessarily give you good info"Hi Jim! I was hoping you would chime in. I agree completely with the statement above. I won't be building a home like yours so steel doesn't seem to be a priority, but you make some valid points. I do find it a mystery why I see some property going for $150K for 15 acres while others are going for $150K with 5-6 acres. I'm sure it has much to do with location and probably contour of the land, not to mention other things. I plan to visit for a week and look around.How would I go about finding what's under the property? I wonder if that is important for the region? Hire a geologist? It wouldn't be any fun if it was rock. My father built homes all his life but I didn't have any interest in the business. I do recall a story where he had shale problems with one home. Now he's gone..but I could sure use his advice today.Ken Fisher
Location, and especially views, have a lot to do with price. Access also has a lot to do with it. So does reputation...neighborhood. Some neighborhoods have a cachet that others don't, and the difference can be as little as a quarter mile and as much as a half million, if you get the drift. Around Asheville, for example, the closer to the city, the higher the price (in general). Think about what makes a property scarce, and that's typically what makes it more costly.For geology, best advice is to find a great local excavator and get real friendly with them, and ask them to walk the property with you. They'll know what's what better than any other category of person I can think of. Not a large outfit, but a few-person shop that's been in business for 20 years. You wanna talk to the guy who's been sitting in the excavator and knows first hand what's been found under the topsoil.What I said about steel applies to other materials...concrete (surcharges are common in the mountains be/c of distances and roundabout routes), CMUs, lumber, flooring <g>...anything and everything is worth checking on. Might or might not be an issue.Good to see ya around, Ken.
youcan ask your agent anything. Thing is, he or she wont know the answer, or just not answer. They will try to make you buy what they show you. They'll push their own offices listings to get them sold. If you don't write an offer on something within a certain period of time, they are done with you.
On land you usually are given period of time for study. Find a local surveyor, and describe the property you are looking at, you might hear..." what ? that 'ol Henderson place up fer sale agin?" And boy, you picked a helluva time to start looking at mountain property. Things are coming into bloom and looking so pretty.
Stop in at the local health dept and see if they had done any previous perk tests before hand. You might find they have something on file called a"letter", which means there is a gauranteed drainfiel site, or even a "permit" , a designed system to go ahead and install. Check the expiration dates on these.(The seller or agent will flaunt this information). Tip: a certain type of tree, pine, I believe, indicates good septic field soil.
I strongly recommend you get the nieghbors(if any) address and phone # from the tax collector(also check the status of your properties taxes. Delinquent assesments, penalties, and interest convey) and chat with them. Ask them how deep their well is, how the water quality is . any purification equipment, what the water pipes are (copper or plastic,...or ?), how often does the power go out,..etc
While you are in the vicinity of town offices, get a copy of the deed, read through it, ask the deed book room clerk to read it and perhps fetch you any recorded liens, encumberances, restrictions, the deed references. ( You should let your settlement attorney look at this stuff because you propbably won't know what your looking at)
If you want to know what's underneath, you want a geotechnical engineer if you are not sure. Stake out your proposed house and he/she will bring a hand auger, analyze what's down under and prescibe you a footing.
Hope that helps, good luck with it.
Once again, great stuff guys. I'm sure I'll be looking for more advice down the road! Maybe some pictures when I visit the area in three weeks. Here's the place I'll be staying.http://www.slidingrockcabins.com/river%20ritz.htm
In addition to all the good info so far I have 3 more words; survey, survey, & survey.
I just spent 3 years and more $$ on legal fees than I care to think about dealing with a property line issue.
Get a survey done BEFORE you close. Do not rely on the seller, the realtor, the friendly neighbor or anyone else to point out the boundaries. Even if the boundaries look obvious the survey & title may disagree.
Do a full title search - not just the bank required minimum. Around here the min is 40 years which usually means just the last owner - pay the few extra $$'s & go back further, as far as the records will take you. Be sure you explain to the title examiner what your intent for the property is - he's only looking for mistakes in the legalese and may not think of pointing out an easement or some other conveyance to you unless he knows what you're looking for.
Specifically look for any easements that just drop off the title, make sure they were properly removed and it wasn't just a clerical mistake. Also watch for any bequeathed privilages; permission to farm, log, extract resources (gravel pit anyone?).
Good luck!
-Norm
>Do a full title searchGood points. Bought a property that needed right of way access across 4 other properties along the gravel road. At some point in the past, the atty had failed to secure the ROW from one of the four. Cost a bunch of time and $$ to correct the oversight. Title ins co was a bit freaked out that they'd insured the title earlier based on the mistaken word of that atty.Also look at the deed restrictions. This property required that any building be constructed in the same manner as the surrounding propertied (15 ac that had been split into 5 or 6 properties). Well, one was 3 story frame w/ wood siding, one was stucco, one was log cabin, one was a converted barn. Same manner, huh? Also required that the building must be "beyond the pasture and in front of the treeline." But the trees had been cut and the pasture was overgrown. So the sale required changing the restrictions to be less ambiguous, which meant getting affidavits from each neighbor. Added some to the atty fee for the transaction.Lots of weird stuff like that going on with mountain property.
Good point about the survey. I bought a parcel which was listed at 45 acres a few years ago. The owner was sliptting off a parcel which was originally separate, but which had been joined to his adjacent property as one lot 25 years ago. When he went to re-split the 45 acres into a separate lot to sell it, the state required a survey. This was the first official survey done on this land. Turns out the 45 acres is really 32 acres, but had been misjudged way back when it was first farmed. I was able to reduce the purchase price a bit on that one, certainly saved more than the cost of the survey!
You guys are the best! I don't know what I'd do without this great advice. Thanks again!Jim:How long did it take you to find what you wanted in NC? How many acres did you end up buying?
In 97 I bought 1.75 ac and it was quick and easy (but expensive). Now there's not much property close to the city and the prices are way up. Not only that, but the good stuff doesn't sit around long...ya snooze, ya lose. We got some acreage recently and then changed our minds and sold it just 5 months later at good profit, _after_ commissions. That's how fast it's changing if you target a popular area. Near the city, undeveloped land is running $45k/ac on up. Go off into the deep woods away from a city, and the situation is completely different. Location, location, location.
I have leaned over the years when buying real estate use a buyers agent they work for you the buyer not the seller, real estate agents fees are paid by the seller not the buyer hence they work for seller. Check out http://www.buyersresource.com/ although they mostly want to work with home buyers you might be able to find one to work with you on property, in any case ask your realtor if they are working for you the buyer or the seller in some states they can represent both at the same time.
"That's how fast it's changing if you target a popular area"Where isn't that happening thesedays? I read about building lots in CT going for over $400K in one thread here, then I look in my own backyard here in Bonita Springs FL. $250K and up for a crappy flat, sandy, treeless 1 acre lot. I've grown so tired of this area with the building that's been going on non stop since 1979. Generations of tomatoe farmers and fisherman have become overnight millionaires by selling large tracts of land to developers. Traffic is a friggin nightmare. 25 years ago there were two traffic lights in this town, now there are 20. For folks moving to Florida, you can have it. I'll take the deep woods anyday. I envision something similar to my childhood days where I grew up in rural Bucks County Pa. It wasn't remote, but nature was everywhere and everybody knew who their neighbors were.
envision something similar to my childhood days where I grew up in rural Bucks County Pa. It wasn't remote, but nature was everywhere and everybody knew who their neighbors were.
Been back lately?
Rural and Bucks County are getting harder and harder to put in the same sentence
I've grown so tired of this area with the building that's been going on non stop since 1979.
Thats why we left Florida some time ago. Schools on split sessions. Graduating classes of 1500 from a highschool. sitting an hour in traffic to go four miles.
No thanks.
I miss Clearwater beach but not enought o put up with all the other crap.
Everytime I go to visit I rent a car and go for a drive on RT 19 during rush hour. Cures my desire to move back.
"Been back lately?"Yea, three years ago. The changes aren't that drastic; at least in the Buckingham-Doylestown area. Sure some developments have popped up, but some of the older farming families are still hanging on to their properties. Those farms are run by kids I went to high school with. Who knows what their kids will do with the land.
What Phil said.
Toll brothers and Pulte and Cutler are surounding all the good stuff about Bucks County with McMansions.
On the other hand, people are still affraid of th Haycock Mountain Albinos, so it's all still good.
Edited 4/22/2006 10:07 am ET by robert
>>"I grew up in rural Bucks County Pa.
Shady Brook Farm is still there and still does the corn maze every year as far as I know.
Almost hate to tell you but guess what it's surrounded by now.
Yardley downtown hasn't changed all that much, and the homes along the Delaware are still the same. Last time I drove by, Pearl Buck house was still on that patch of farmland. Doylestown proper will always be a small town main street USA kind of place. I'm pretty sure the winery and orchard are still up on the hill and lots of the old stuff you likely remember haven't changed all that much. What's around all that stuff has changed quite a bit. McMansion breeding ground.
If you get up this way, give a shout.
I'm in Philly.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Some great advice here. You're right - one of the factors impacting price is contour. I had 60ac in E. Tenn, but you could only stand comfortably on about 2ac.
In that area lots of people has sold their mineral rights in the early 1900's. So the deep title search is critical. The wording varies - I saw one mineral rights deed that said no distirbance of the surface but they could tunnel all they wanted.