Just a question for those of you who know about buying and selling. We are looking at land in the mountains and having to guess at the property boundaries because there are no markers. I told the realtor that I wanted the seller to have the corners marked so that we and the geotechnical firm we are hiring to evaluate the property would know for sure where it is located. The realtor acted surprised and said that it would be very expensive for the seller.
Is this an unusual or out of line request? I would think that this was a standard thing for a seller to do when there is no natural or manmade barrier (such as a fence) to tell a buyer where it is.
Replies
Not unusual, might be expensive. Fences are often not built on the line. Resistance would likely depend on the acreage. Small, not a big deal. Large, big deal.
Cost a lot to determine boundaries of 30 ac in the Arizona mtns. Existing surveys were wrong, had to go back to Gov't quarter/quarter section markers and try to figure it out. They were exceedingly difficult to find.
Your Realtor sounds like a nitwit. I can't imagine any buyer not wanting to know what he/she was buying. Perhaps your using a "geotechnical firm" frightened him/her?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
This is 3 acres in a development with plot plans, so it shouldn't be too awfully difficult in this day of GPS. We are spending in the neighborhood of $1500 to have it checked for buildability by the tech firm, so it seems like the buyer can pony up the $1000 the realtor estimated it would cost for the survey. If our report comes up negative we won't buy the property, but he'll still have the survey for the next buyer.
my lot was purchased based on a contingency agreement that we were satisfied with the survey (provided and paid for by seller) and also that the site would perc for septic
the seller had put two adjacent lots up for sale at the same time. the buyer of the adjacent lot (to mine) dropped out after the survey came back revealing that half of his buildable area was part of my lot.
the septic testing initially failed. miserably.
it took a year to resolve.
i agreed to help with the septic testing costs. (i'm sure they got pretty steep)
it all worked out in the end - in large part due to the initial agreement.
in my opinion, your seller should accept this as a cost of the sale. unless the seller is really concerned about not being able to sell the property, i think they should have the survey done before the listing.
carpenter in transition
This doesn't make much sense. There's a plat but no survey was ever performed? And you're buying from the developer?
Or is it that the survey was done but nobody now knows where the corners are? If that's the case, shouldn't take but a very few hundred dollars to restake the corners. Around here surveyors charge a little more for setting steel pins, but that's a worthwhile cost. One I, as a buyer, would be happy to share. But the seller has little to gripe about when a buyer wants to know where the property lines are and he can't show them.
Normally a seller wouldn't be very impressed with your $1500 expenditure. There's absolutely nothing in it for him. Solely for your benefit. I understand your POV, but it has nothing but potential trouble for the seller. Far as he was concerned, it was a buildable lot already. You're questioning that.
We bought property here with a 7 yr old survey. Re-survey of these 83 mountain acres would have been several thousand dollars. My financial negotiations with the seller would have been severly compromised if I'd insisted on a new survey. I found all but one of the corner pins, with the help of the plat. Never knew where the last corner was until last year when a neighbor surveyed. I was 20' off in my guess for a 1500' line through a mature forest. Didn't matter as nobody was doing anything anywhere near the property line.
Then they wanted to log their side so I made some noises. If they'd been a little nicer, we'd have found it in a few hrs working back and forth between the known pins. When you have a known starting point, it's simple to take a compass and tape (or pace it off) to locate the next pin. Nothing is a grid here, so it's a little more complicated.
Good luck. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"This doesn't make much sense. There's a plat but no survey was ever performed? And you're buying from the developer?Or is it that the survey was done but nobody now knows where the corners are? "I live on such a place. But this was done in 1928. And the neighbor's house was built in the mid 30's. So far the only resolution is that the line is unknown.My survey is shows that at the small end (I have 2 iregular, shapped lots on water front with 110 on the lake side and 55 on the road) is 55 ft. When I built I had it surveyed and found that the neighbor was over 12 ft at the road side, assuming that the power pole was the boundry.A few years ago the neighbors house was sold and surveyed, but that guy came up with only 7ft over. He claims (3rd hand, via the real estate agent that gave me a copy of the survey) that he found "records" that show the one lot is 25' while mine show it as 30'. And nothing matches around here. And the roads are narrow and they did not allow enough any space for curves, it is all straight lines. One corner of the house across the street is about 1/3 of the way into the street.My disputed corner is under the nextdoor neighbors car port.I don't know what my orginal survey used for starting points. The neighbors survey shows his references. 2 of which steel post which are used to mark common pathways for access to the lake. However, the location of those are very suspect. It also show a number of other "found" markers (nails, water pipe) at various places on the several surrounding lots.Now all of the markers from my survey are gone except for one. And interestingly that is the only one that shown to be exactly in place. the others are all show to be off by upto a foot.
Yup, I've seen this before. My mother's place in Michigan is one. House was built early 40's. Lake front. Finally the township stepped in and determined lot lines for everybody. One poor soul got no lake front. The neighbors were nice and awarded him 7'.
The last land I bought here, 1 acre with a 100 yr old house in the nearby village, had never been surveyed. Fortunately the attorney handling the estate was aware of the problem. The surveyor determined what the neighbors owned, and what was left. Turned out to be almost exactly what the deed described. Occasionally works out that way. And the house was on the property, as was half of the neighbor's driveway, to his displeasure. Guess who didn't bother with a survey prior to sale?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"There's a plat but no survey was ever performed? "
I don't know if a survey was ever performed, I just know that nothing is marked now - when we looked at it the realtor said "The property starts around here and extends around here, and goes down the slope over there". But there are no markers, and this guy does NOT know how to read a map. He took 5 minutes to figure out whether to go right or left when the only two roads in the area intersected. I believe that there was a survey because when I called the county to ask about the property and any seismic or landslide studies that had been done they were able to look at a map and say that this property was OK but the adjacent property had some evidence of potential problems.
You're right that a seller won't be impressed with my expenditure - he'd probably rather I just buy the land and find out later that it can't be built. It just seems like the boundaries are something that should be available to a potential buyer so we know what land we are getting. It advertises that a stream is on the property. Is it? I dunno nothing is marked. There is a driveway roughed in on the property. Is it on the property? I dunno. There isn't that much road frontage (it is triangular piece of property with a pointy end at the street) so the driveway could easily start on somebody else's property.
Sounds like my original assessment of your Realtor was correct. Or maybe you have the misfortune of a novice. You're clearly not asking for anything out of the ordinary.
Persevere, and you may very well find it to be what you were looking for. One might think that those questions you posed, stream and driveway, would motivate the Realtor to get busy and find out. Sometimes the seller really does know where the pins are but the Realtor didn't want to take the time to educate him/herself. I've been amazed at the sloth of agents on occasion. Utah I don't know, but generally plats are recorded with deeds. A call to the county courthouse will tell you. Your agent should know.
Our place here was only seller and buyer, no agents. He provided a plat and I took it from there. They didn't know where the pins or lines were. As our deal was only $2k down (enough for their closing expenses) with seller financing, I didn't want to increase the sellers' cost any more than absolutely necessary.
Later, had 2 properties I was interested in near here, 15 miles from town. Neither listing agent was willing to meet me at the property to show me what they were, both unimproved surrounded by woods. Sure were doing a nice job for their client. Kinda like your situation. You don't even really know if you saw what was for sale.
I didn't those times, but wouldn't hesitate to approach the seller, if all else fails. Assuming that ownership is public information. All this could be quickly resolved if he/she would show up with a recorded plat and show you the pins. Then you could direct your study, which you certainly can not now do.
If, in fact, there is no survey, that has to come first. Make sure whatever the contract says about the land is what you want. Sometimes the total acreage changes quite a bit after a survey. Something like "price is for the parcel, with no fewer than 3 acres" which avoids a price argument if it turned out to be 5, or 2. Seller may be thinking price/acre even if it isn't presented that way. You have no way of knowing, only that you have to protect yourself.
Good luck and tell us how it worked out. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I think the realtor might be just guarding their clients intere$t$. Some places, you can sell it without a survey. I know its that way here. People get in a world of trouble when they carry rebar and orange paint in the truck for "finding" locations. Often, the realtor is the one that helps set up getting the locating service.
Ya want horror stories? Like the whole development where the realtor thought they'd save a buck and do it themselves, and it was discovered later when someone realised their sewage lagoon and part of their garage was actually on a neighbors property?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I think you would benefit from a survey performed by an established, reputable firm. If you have already indicated willingness to incur other costs in having the property evaluated prior to purchase and really, really want the acreage, no harm in offering to assume some portion of the survey cost. That, of course, indicates to the seller even greater interest on your part and could influence your negotiating position. Also, be sure and read carefully a speciman of the title policy prior to actual purchase and determine what, if any, special exclusions would or might be attached. Title insurance policies can vary in their coverage.
My brother and I purchased adjacent, 3 acre lots north of Durango, Colorado and close to the ski area back in the mid 70's. The property was extremely inexpensive then compared to present market value. I sold mine in 1980, but my Bro hung on to his. In the late 90's when the land had appreciated drastically, a lot survey on the "back line" of 10 or so lots shifted the property lines of everyone, and everyone and every entity involved got sued, although only one property owner at the bottom of the row of lots actually "lost" acreage. The individual who performed the "way back when" survey was no longer around. Zbalk
I've been involved in many deals here on Long Island, and surveys are common, and run around $400 for a lot. About 5 years ago, I bought a lot in Virginia. Nobody knew where the lot line was alongside my driveway and the seller refused to pay for all or even half the cost of a survey (12.5 acres). He just wanted to use the "tax map" boundaries, which are typically a mess. He owned the adjacent lot too. When he tried to sell that, the buyer got a survey and it turned out that there were two outbuildings that were either on my lot or the line went thru them. I wound up paying for my own survey ($1500) and gained about 30 foot of frontage. My seller had his lawyer write me and send me a deed and asked me to just sign the deed giving him back the 30 feet, to resolve the "boundary dispute". I told him there was no boundary dispute. I owned that property, and if he really was concerned about it, he should have gone for the survey at the outset. I asked, if the line went thru the middle of the driveway, would he have given me the extra land? We went back and forth for about six months. Finally, he gave the other buyer a reduced price and went away.
I've gotten other properties down there since, and when ever there's any size, it pays to see the survey. I had another one where my dock was on the neighbor's land, and there was a title dispute that had already been litigated. My broker, who I like, kind of blew me off because it was after the fact. He told me to just move the dock.
Do yourself a favor - deal with the problem now, not later. By the way, if it's a subdivision, there should be a filed map with the county.
Don
Good that you got that worked out. Tax maps are all but worthless to determine property lines. They aren't even drawn to scale. Who pays for the re-survey is always up for negotiation, important as one is.
Your broker telling you to just move the dock was wrong. And you had a valid complaint that the licensing folks in Richmond would like to hear about. There is supposed to be some professionalism present. Unfortunately there's also commonly a lot of ignorance on the Realtor's part. Almost unavoidable if the seller, himself, doesn't know and doesn't want to pay to find out. But that's something the Realtor has to work out. Does not change his duties to you, the buyer. "I don't know and you should find out" is sometimes a very good answer, the best you might be able to get.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I actually like this Realtor. I wouldn't report him. He's very up front and he usually does extra homework that he doesn't have to. For example, I was looking at one place on the water as a potential rental property and he went to the County, and researched an old deed that said no commercial use. Basically, he cut his own throat on that. (On the first deal, he wasn't involved.)
Part of the problem that I've seen is that the brokers seem to get between buyers and sellers, and they don't talk to each other. Even the closings are typically done in two parts, sellers sign first, then buyers bring in the money (cash deals).
It's different world in the country, and I don't underestimate those farmers even a little bit.
Did you ever hear the story... Two counterfeiters from the Big City were printing bills and they screwed up. Instead of $20's they did a bunch of $18 bills. So, one said to the other, we'll just take these out to the sticks and get rid of them. So they drive out and find a farmer, and they go over to him, and ask him for change of an $18.00 bill. tho old man doesn't even blink an eye. He says, "Sure fellas. What do you want - two $9's or three $6's?"
Have a great day.
I understand. Been in a similar place. Realtors here are required to provide fair dealing, assuming you didn't have a buyer-broker arrangement. I'm sure you understand the concept of agency.
Separate closings I also found odd, but if the deal's properly prepared, it doesn't matter. Sure is hard to solve last minute problems though. That's where the old-boy network comes in handy. Regarding buyer/seller negotiations, I've done with and without go-betweens. I don't see either as a distinct advantage. Sometimes one's better, sometimes the other, depends on the individuals involved.
Your broker covered his azz, didn't cut his throat. If he'd led you to believe the property had commercial potential he've had a problem. Va law is very clear here, and the licensing folks are serious. That's where the "I don't know" should come in.
Was advising a buyer here (I'm no longer licensed, got too expensive for what little I wanted to do) whose Realtor told her that electric hookup wouldn't be a problem. When I heard the location, over the phone, I strongly questioned that. It's not a right in Va, only physical access is. Turned out the property in question had very little possibility of either electric or phone connection due to unaccomodating neighbors. Her Realtor didn't have a clue. Instead of telling her to check it out, she was told "no problem" by the Realtor. That's the type of abuse the law is set up to protect the unsuspecting public from. Abuse, in that the Realtor should have known better. Nobody got hurt, but it was close.
Sellers are another matter. Much more difficult to go after them. You did very well to protect yourself. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Whoa.
You may want to proceed with caution here.
You didn't say wjere you're at, around here in Va it's pretty much customary sellors have property boundarys marked so a buyer knows what he's looking at. And as someone else pointed out this little 3 acres parcel must have been surveyed sometime, wonder why the sellor hasn't given this document to the listing agent?
Something tells me this property could be a dog,(course I could be wrong) .... lack of property documents on file, lack of road frontage,(sure there can be more that turns up in your study period, I.E. Sewage disposal?BTW, 30 days is usually customary here, and that can go by real quickly, especially hard this time of the year, it's the busiest time of the season for dirt scientist people).
I'm guessing this month the Joe blow realtor put up "Lot 3 at "Sugar Mountain" for sale again. He's looking for "Oh look honey,isn't it pretty? let's buy it". Since everything is in bloom now.
Write into your offer " seller to recover property corner monuments". Be prepared for... "the buyer does that, this way you can have your surveyor tie down the borings, and have the survey prepared in your name". What I'm trying to say is spend the least amount of money on this in case you don't buy it.
Good Luck with it.
I think it's a very reasoanble request for a seller to provide a survey of the property he is selling. If he has a survey the corners should be marked.
He can have the corners marked and the field work done so that when a sale is actually contracted there will be little work and expense left to complete the final survey.
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?
It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Is this an unusual or out of line request
Aimless, everything regarding the purchase of that property is negotiable. Just put your request in writing in the offer to purchase and you'll soon have a firm answer. It might be yes, and it might be no. I would guess it all depends upon the money you are offering for the lot. If you're seeking a big discount, then the seller will probably be less likely to be willing to incur expenses for you to do your due dilligence. If you are offering close to full price, and the seller knows for sure the lot is buildable, then he'll probably accept your offer.
Just make the offer. Then tell us what the seller said.
blue
just trying to make you feel better here.
take a look at the image supplied. my 3 connected parcels which make up 3.5 acres are marked with handwritten " X's " inside a circle. if you think surveying an upside down anvil was hard enough, imagine that 75 % of the property has solid woods, the survey happened in the summer leafy season, and the bottom 1/2 to 2/3 is so steep that it is hard to walk.
carpenter in transition
Looks cool though - is there some sort of natural element that gave it the interesting shape, or did they just curve the surrounding roads for fun and practice?
We made the offer today for slightly less than asking, with a request for a survey to mark the 4 corners. Turns out the seller did have it surveyed recently (Tom was right - the realtor is a bit of nitwit) and he will be happy to show us the corner markers - it will be interesting to see how far away they are from the spots that the realtor was guessing at. We walked along the road a bit and couldn't find the markers up at the road, so I'm guessing the realtor was way off. And it will be great to see where the property actually extends to - there's a little scrub oak forest that my daughter and I had fun walking through (sort of an alpine secret garden) and it would be nice if some of that was ours. The realtor tells me that the seller has accepted with some slight changes to the contract (no need for survey), so I'm pretty excited. We won't see the paperwork until tomorrow though.
The limited road frontage is fine with me - we are going up there to get away from it all and frankly the less contact with the powers that be the better. It's only a dirt track, but if they ever gravel or pave it then there's that much less to plow onto our property.
Here's a view of the property - the hill closest is owned by the LDS church and unlikely to ever be developed. The mountains are the eastern slopes of the Wasatch mountains - they look closer when it isn't a photo.
Blue has it right: make a specific written offer exactly the way you'd like things to be. The offer is all yours. It's up to the seller to accept, decline, or counter. The response is all the seller's. That's just good business and the nature of professional negotiation.
The law regarding survey in land sales is state by state. Local customs also vary from area to area. Survey costs vary drastically for a variety of reasons. It will usually save you money to try to find a survey company that has surveyed land that borders, or is at least close by, what you want surveyed. Once a survey company has found the control pins in an area they will have everything in their computer files and another survey in the same area will take less time. I've seen surveys of 40 acres or so around here go for anywhere from $800 to $5000. There are also different types of survey, so make sure you are specific about what you want done. Usually it's like this: Cheapest: Improvement Location Certificate. Bump up: All corners marked. Bump up: Corners marked and plat drawn, provided to you and possibly recorded at the county courthouse. Bump up: Add contour lines. Bump up: ALTA survey (look it up if you are curious, this is getting too long!)
I've been in the land and home sales biz for about ten years here in Colorado. RURAL Colorado. It is common here for land to sell without survey. To sell without corner markers. Even to sell without legal access. With power unavailable, etc. There are many reasons why certain properties sell with such bugs. I tell people, "I'll sell it to you with bugs, but ONLY if you sign a written disclosure stating that you know the specific bugs and that you understand and accept them." People not in the RE biz often seem to think in terms of protecting themselves from brokers. Usually what they need protection from is all their lack of knowledge and their incorrect assumptions. Lots of people don't seem to realize that brokers view customers as people that they need protection from! I could tell you stories...
Finding out the details of a property that you are interested in is THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BUYER! A good broker may do much of the information gathering for you, but it is not the responsibility of the broker to check out everything that you might want to know. It's called "due diligence". It is diligence due from the buyer before that buyer spend money.
All that said, I'd stick to the condition of new survey, provided by seller. Contrary to what someone else said, if you buy the survey, it's yours. You do not have to give a copy to the seller if the seller didn't contract and pay for said survey.
As to the broker saying, "That'd cost the seller a bunch of money". That seems like a reflective broker thinking out loud about how such a proposal will be viewed by the seller.
Think of it like this: You want to buy a vintage car. There's only one exactly like the one you are looking at. The seller has a price posted. But.... you're there looking, so nobody has agreed to pay the seller's price yet since the thing is still for sale. You make an offer. You want the seller to deliver it to you since it doesn't run. Not much difference in buying land. The problems are either to much for you to bite off or they are acceptable to you. No one but you knows exactly why you want that car i.e. it has benefits to you that no one else may care about.
ALWAYS be ready to walk away from the deal. Buyers who screw up usually do so because they get emotionally involved in their imagination about a specific property.
Take charge! If it happens, it's your deal!
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
Thanks for the view from the realtor's side - it is very helpful and informative. In fact, everyone on this thread has been very helpful and informative. Thanks to all of you.
I am trying to accomplish my due diligence. It's hard when you've never built (beyond an addition) before and don't really know what is involved - especially in an alpine setting with slope, septic, water issues, etc. So far we are planning a geotechnical report that will dig down and analyze the soil to determine buildability and make foundation recommendations, as well as a certified perc test. We are also going to get a site analysis from the county to determine allowable septic placement with regards to the natural stream(assuming the perc test is OK). Given that the seller is providing the survey, and I've read the CC&R (yes even in the middle of nowhere!) can you make any other suggestions on due diligence that we should be doing?
I assume that you have the property under contract before you start spending on due diligence.
Have you gotten a title insurance commitment yet? Does it insure access?"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
Your assumption is correct - we won't spend anything on due diligence until the contract is signed. We've had a verbal acceptance but I haven't seen the revised paperwork yet, so I haven't made any appointments.
According to the existing paperwork, the title insurance provided by the seller is the most basic and anything extra is on me. Can you explain a little more about insuring access? We would have about 100' of 'road' frontage to the dirt track. Should we be worried about access to the property?
100' doesn't sound much like the pointy end of a triangle unless you are looking at a drawing and the opposing line is 450'. Maybe it's more of a lopsided trapezoid.
It's not that you should be worried about access.... but you do want access, right? So you might check the subd plat that's filed in your county clerk's office to see that it is, in fact, recorded and approved by your county. If that's the case you are probably ok."But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
OK, my BS indicator light just went off, and I'd like someone to tell me if it is justified or I am just reacting out of ignorance.
Apparently the MLS on this property is outdated because nobody bought it (we're paying about 1/2 the original asking). The owner has decided to represent himself instead of having the agent work as a limited agent representing both of us because "he doesn't want to list the property in case we don't buy it". What does that mean? Why would relisting it properly make a difference? Are we stepping into something shady here? I could see if he was doing a FSBO to cut down on realtor fees, but I am totally confused here.
Although it's not commonly done in this area, we're considering hiring a RE lawyer to look things over because of this change. Is that overkill?
like I said, Joe blow put the lot up for sale again to see if anyone is interested.
Start at the beginning, how did you find this property.......
"Start at the beginning, how did you find this property......."
Well it goes like this - we went up with the realtor to look at some other property that we'd picked out based on the MLS, but turned out to be a disappointment. This property was just a little further down the road and the realtor knows the guy selling it, yada, yada, yada. When we expressed interest in it, the realtor faxed me an MLS listing with the original price crossed out and a new one handwritten in (a little more than half the original asking). We looked around at other properties via the magic of MLS and the new price seems to be more in line with that 'neighborhood' and is in our range. Realtor says the change in price is because this guy wants to unload it and move on. But that seems a little strange to me if it isn't even listed.
The bottom line is that I don't want to end up in the hole with property that can't be used or to be involved in any kind of shady dealings. But I don't really care what goes on behind the seller's scenes (e.g. what his motivations are) as long as I pay a reasonable price that makes us both happy and the property itself is as represented.
what an incredibly spectacular photograph !
you don't have a lawyer yet ?
are you nuts ?
carpenter in transition
Aimless-
You're spending how many thousands of dollars for the property? 25K 50K or more... You plan on spending lots and lots more to build a house, and live there for the rest of your life, but you're not sure if you want to hire a lawyer??? There are so many things that can go wrong that can screw up your investment, don't take a chance.
By the way, I've been licensed as a lawyer for 21 years. I've done my share of closings and whenever I got involved in a deal outside my normal geography, I hired a lawyer to represent me. The cost is usually minimal $500-1,000. It's really cheap insurance. Don't rely on some title agent, or a lawyer that's going to represent the bank or the seller. Get somebody at that table that's going to protect your interest. Do it before you sign the contract. After that, not too much can be changed.
Good luck. Don
Don,
Thanks for your advice. We aren't quibbling over the price of a lawyer as we are willing to spend money now to avoid making a big mistake. My only hesitation is that lawyers aren't commonly involved in real estate transactions around here, so finding one who is good at it is difficult - sort of a stab in the dark as there is no word of mouth available. So if one wasn't necessary, then I'd go with the flow. But the posts here have made me realize that we really need to protect ourselves, so even a bad lawyer may be better than nothing.
We've already signed the offer contract, and I JUST got informed that it has been accepted, so I hope we aren't sunk. I'll try and find a RE lawyer anyway - at this point we could lose the earnest money but still save the rest of our savings!
You say you could lose earnest money? You shouldn't if you offer was properly written. For instance if your soil studies don't work for you your contract should call for your deposit being returned.
The offer is written as contingent on a satisfactory soils report and site assessment. I was thinking more along the line of "if the lawyer says this is a bad deal and I need to wriggle out of it" as being a way to lose the earnest money.
I think your assessment of this being Joe Blow putting it up and seeing what he gets is probably correct. Hopefully it will all work out - he gets what he wants and we pay what we are willing to pay.
Seller probably doesn't want to pay the commission since it's not listed and he has a buyer. Did you find the property or did your broker find it for you?
If you are not going to be represented by a broker, I'd go to an attornery to have everything reviewed. If no broker, who wrote the contract?"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
>Although it's not commonly done in this area, we're considering hiring a RE lawyer to look things over because of this change. Is that overkill?Amy, I advise on using a RE atty, too, whether typical or not. I know of a recent case where access to a beautiful property was via right of ways over other properties. Everyone assured the ROWs were in good order. All realtors, one of whom owned one of the properties, plus the title insurer. When the atty for the buyer dug into it, he found that about 3 transactions prior, one of the ROWs had NOT been conveyed. That atty had represented to the insurer that all was proper, but it wasn't. Suddenly there were 4 properties that legally had ZERO access. It took some legal legwork and new deeds and documents to re-establish the ROW, and cost people collectively about 3000. But now all is in good shape. Protect yourself, especially be/c a question or two has been raised in your mind. It's worth it for the peace of mind.PS. Awesome views. Perfect place for a thin-shell concrete house! Ha ha!
Edited 5/26/2005 2:34 pm ET by Cloud Hidden
"Perfect place for a thin-shell concrete house! Ha ha!"
Not a laughing matter - it IS a perfect place for a thin-shelled dome. Not sure how the HOA (who have approval rights on the plans) would go for it though. Lots of conservative visionless so and so's live in this state. Haven't met the HOA board yet, so don't know if they are typical or kindred spirits.
Edited to add: I took everyone's advice and hired the attorney today. He is looking over the paperwork as we speak. He's already explained some things to my better understanding, so this is a good investment. Thanks to all of you for recommending that course of action.
Edited 5/26/2005 2:53 pm ET by aimless
> Not sure how the HOA (who have approval rights on the plans) would go for it though. Lots of conservative visionless so and so's live in this state.Actually, the leading companies in the field are owned by and run by devout Mormons with ties to the church leadership in UT. If the development is connected to the church in any way, it'd probably be easy to influence the decision!See, a surprise every where you turn. :)FWIW, I also know of a recent case where the restrictive covenants were specifically modified to eliminate the need for approval or meeting any standard other than it cannot be a mobile home. This allowed a good quality thin-shell without needing any permissions beyond the building dept.
Wow, thanks for the info! You'd think I'd have seen a thin shell in person by now if there are Utah companies building them! That expands my options considerably.
Thanks!
>if there are Utah companies building themMinor point, but companies with strong Mormon ties, not specifically based in Utah (actually, Idaho and TX, but they travel easily). Lotsa churches being done like this be/c they provide affordable clearspans for seating the 1000-3000 congregants that seems to be typical for the churches built like this.
how the HOA (who have approval rights on the plans) would go
Seems mind boggling that anybody would have created an HOA to regulate what ought to be "out in the country."
But, then again, I'm no fan of HOA.
Is the property in city limits? I did not have that "look" (but the photo was looking "out" not in).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
HOA's? Don't get me started. Here's an email from a neighbor who went to our HOA meeting...gives the tone of how they run:"We chose John Doe V.P. after I refused the nomination. He kind of scares me a bit in that he's pretty intense. I took him to task for his almost dictatorial statement that he wouldn't be interested in taking the position unless we, as a group, were more forward thinking. That he'd been Pres. of homeowner groups before and he didn't want to just babysit our group. I said I was only speaking for myself but I thought I took exception to that attitude and asked him just where it was he thought our group should go. He was a former municipal planner and I asked what it was he wanted us to be thinking about to improve our little row of homes as we all seem to like it pretty much as it is. He said well, we shouldn't do things by group consensus. That the officers should make the decisions for the group. I said now I think I'm speaking for everyone when I say we all feel entitled to equal votes here and don't intend to turn over the vision for Upper Sondley to just two or three people. Everyone nodded in agreement. It got a little contentious but he backed off and now I think everyone knows what to be wary of with this guy and not to give him too much power or he'll run with it! and perhaps in directions we would not care for at all."This is for a development of 12 houses that was annexed by the city and is fully built out so there is absolutely nothing to do or approve. But they wanna put liens on houses that don't cut their roadside grass sufficiently. And that appointed someone to the architectural committee because, "He's moved around a lot and lived in a lot of houses." Don't get me started...
But they wanna put liens on houses that don't cut their roadside grass sufficiently
If there were ever a case for "ruling as you would be ruled," most HOA seem to fail it.
There's probably a decent debate on whether that's due to some societal failure, or a symptom of societal failure--but this is the wrong folder and wrong thread for that.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Most buyers, of mountain, or other weekend get-away places, even close to home, prefer restrictions, to protect their investment. You wouldn't want some carpenter putting his trailer next to your shangri-la and running his part-time dovetail drawer making business at all hours of the night, and letting his dobermans run amuck, six beat-up pickup trucks in the yard, chicken coop, pot plants, etc, now do you?
You wouldn't want some carpenter putting his trailer next to your shangri-la and running his part-time dovetail drawer making business at all hours of the night, and letting his dobermans run amuck, six beat-up pickup trucks in the yard, chicken coop, pot plants, etc, now do you?
Hey--are you the dude in the next lot over on the river? <g> And, I have no beat-up pickup trucks; pink flamingos, yeah, no trucks . . .
Hae to be careful, assuming what people want. If I have 2-3 acres to site on, I, personally, am a lot more tolerant than if it's a .3 or .4 acre lot. The same goes for a more limited resource, like lake or canyon frontage.
I'm just slightly uncomfortable with the idea that 5,10, 20 acre lots of countryside need the micromanagement of an HOA.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
This is outside the city. I think the HOA was organized because of water - they have a private water company servicing the residences. Most of the original HOA rules just concern fire safety (build with fire resistant materials, firebreak around the house, etc.) The bit about being allowed to approve our plans was added on later.
I dislike HOAs on general principle and that was a real drawback for the site. However finding property for sale that WASN"T covered under an HOA seemed well-nigh impossible - in the last 6 months only 2 came up and they were both very expensive.
they have a private water company servicing the residences
A legitimate concern in AZ, water. But, to turn a collective water authority into an HOA "as well" is a bit, well, worrying.
Also, if it's a case where the nearest water is a real deep well, my first thought is to let the resource define the users. If you can afford the well, then you can develop the property. But that's likely some sort of restriction of trade for big giant developers, and therefore bad evil & rotten.
I'll stick to my completely-out-in-the-County only river get-away property. Got trailers to the left, and a skeet range to the right--just right for me.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I had this discussion with my mother. She argues that deep down I really DO care what goes up near me at our getaway because it affects resale value. I said that as long as they aren't opening a crack house or a meth lab, they can do what they want on their land. One of the major points of getting a place in the mountains is to have more freedom, and I want my neighbors to have that same freedom to be themselves, even if they are 400 pound nudists.
Like I said, I think HOAs are inherently bad, and I would dearly have loved to have gotten some land outside their jurisdiction. I just couldn't afford 80K for the single acre of property that came up outside the HOA. The only other one that came up was fairly expensive AND had no access - it was blocked on all sides by other people's property.
was fairly expensive AND had no access - it was blocked on all sides by other people's property.
Talk about needing an RE attorney. It's been ages, but I seem to remember that there was (maybe used to be, by now) some sort of "merchantability"-type thing that you could not sell land with no easement or access; that some sort of access had to be part & parcel to the deal. I could be wrong, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
In the interests of updating anybody who was remotely interested in this, I have more details:
1. A survey of half the land (why does one only survey half the land when it has equal accessibility?) was done and filed with the county. It listed that half of the property as 1.2 acres instead of the 1.5 that the seller claimed. Overall he was listing 3 acres for a 2.4 acre parcel - as was clear once I got a copy of the plat from the county. It seems to me like the realtor should have looked at the plat before listing it, rather than just going with what the seller said. Is that unreasonable?
2. After some family discussion we decided to go through with it, in spite of the obvious shadiness of the seller. We like the property a lot and are at this point a little bit emotionally invested in it.
3. The engineer doing the perc test and soil report (boy those things are expensive!) recommended that we wait until August to give the land a better chance to pass - snowmelt was pretty substantial this year. So into waiting mode for a couple of months. The real bad part about this is that we had already closed the loan (using home equity for the purchase), so now we are paying off a loan on money that is just sitting there.
4. The property failed the perc test. The seller had a 'passing' perc test several years ago and listed that as a selling feature. However the test was not done by a certified company and the county would not recognize it. We had made a passing perc a condition of the sale, and the certified tester said it wasn't even close. OK, I do have an emotional investment in the property, but I'm not gonna pay to keep doing these things until we find a tiny spec of land that passes. That's why we made the sale contigent - thus the sale is off.
So, we've spent a couple of thousand dollars on this, and my heart is a little sore that we aren't going to get our place in the mountains, but apparently this wasn't meant to be. Not sure if I have any lessons learned - we spent money on due diligence so we didn't get stuck with an unbuildable lemon. Perhaps we should have bailed on the first red flag and we would have saved some money (and the other property we almost liked as much might still have been available). Maybe there is a better property out there, but it's looking like affordability is slipping out of our range as the prices started shooting up last month.
It's a shame it didn't work out for you, it hurts when you spend that much time on a project then are left with nothing." It seems to me like the realtor should have looked at the plat before listing it, rather than just going with what the seller said. Is that unreasonable?"We actually had one of our former tenants go to a realtor and list our house. I was reading the paper and saw my house advertised for sale, heh. You sure would think they would do more research than that (I'm sure most do.)
A survey of half the land (why does one only survey half the land when it has equal accessibility?) was done and filed with the county. It listed that half of the property as 1.2 acres instead of the 1.5 that the seller claimed. Overall he was listing 3 acres for a 2.4 acre parcel - as was clear once I got a copy of the plat from the county. It seems to me like the realtor should have looked at the plat before listing it, rather than just going with what the seller said. Is that unreasonable?
Well, if I were in charge of making RE rules . . .
Luckily (probably) for the RE biz, I do not.
I'm going to guess that any extant partial plat, is just that, a remnant of a previous attempt at subdivision. My other guess is that there's a political boundry at the 'break' point. My experience with sites (plats) & AHJ, is the "real" part of the Real Estate is what the AHJ says it is. The buyer can call it achiote en adobo, but that will not make it so.
I'm thinking you may need an RE attorney with local experience (like you need to spend any more). But, you now have real money tied up in this thing, which may not be the thing after all.
Sure, owner & owner's agent are supposed to disclose, but, they are only required (generally) to disclose what they actually know. If they don't know there's some federaly protection that crosses their property, bisecting it to make some smaller parcel, they can't disclose that. They are supposed to know; the pro RE person is supposed to make a reasonable effort to find out, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The property is located just about dead center of the plat and is made up of 2 lots. The plat is current, and there are no political boundaries or weird easements on the property. Just a loser seller trying to pull one over on us. Our original offer required a survey and the seller said he had one, but he 'just couldn't find it' - if he had it would have reinforced that he was lying on the MLS. I don't think he realized that the surveyor was required to file a copy with the county and the information is publicly available.
We did retain a RE attorney, though it is a sort of moot point now.
Don't know as it'll make either you or your checkbook feel any better but....
Our first attempt at land purchase here was 98 acres. We had what should be the normal contingencies in the contract. After working on it for a full year, and getting a utility easement from a neighbor, we ran into a very peculiar access problem that our attorney hadn't explained previously.
After our backing out of the contract, the seller acknowledged that she'd attempted to get a utility easement several years prior, and failed. What she was selling, she believed nobody could ever get electricity or a phone line to. Broke up her marriage and no way in hell was she going to share that info with anybody. That, I'd fixed, but the access problem had no solution.
Or.....
A client was interested in a nice parcel fronting on a small river. Needed a bridge. The county said the bridge required approval by several (IIRC, 11 total) federal and state agencies. Conventional wisdom was that bridges started at $50k and went up. Undaunted, the client and I proceeded to do the work (and pay the fees) necessary for approval. Inland Fisheries, Scenic River Board, Army Corps of Engineers, ...
Got the design all worked out with everybody's approval and even located the 60' monster I beams (used) necessary. Couldn't get a crane in there so we figured how to place the steel without. Bridge budget was a workable $8k.
About that time the neighbors got worried that somebody was actually going to do something and lit a fire under the county bureaucrats. Turned out there's a zoning requirement, for that small stretch of river only, requiring a house before you can get a permit to build a bridge. We'd seen the wording and asked how it worked. Until the neighbors got involved, the county's interpretation was considerably different. "Oops, sorry about that. Too bad about the thousands you've already spent."
I hope your next attempt goes better. Mine, and that client's, certainly did.
Remember: no risk, no gain. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Drove 80 miles north to look at a quarter section in the mountains yesterday.MLS said 1/4 section.
20 acres when I got there. Beautiful 20 acres, but NOT what I wanted.
Maybe there is a better property out there, but it's looking like affordability is slipping out of our range as the prices started shooting up last month
That property isn't going to shoot up if it won't perc. What's the water situation? Or do you have to buy that too?
Well drillers are getting kinda pricey too. And busy too.
Joe H
Read the whole thing, I see it's a community well.
Maybe the price could be renegotiated given the no perc. Might be some expensive way to solve that problem. What's the soil like? Rocks and more rock?
Edited 8/6/2005 8:23 pm ET by JoeH
"Maybe the price could be renegotiated given the no perc. Might be some expensive way to solve that problem. What's the soil like? Rocks and more rock?"
Below the topsoil the land is a clay loam. I'm not willing to take the financial risk with the county approving anything on no perc, so this is a dead deal.
In February we looked at a piece of land that had septic already installed. Today I see that the asking price has almost doubled (but it's still on the market, so maybe they're dreaming).
Are the sellers aware of the failed Perc test?
When you write a contingent offer and you can't satisfy the contingency we usually renegotiate. The sellers can no longer sell the lot as buildable if they know the perc test failed. They have to disclose this to any other buyer. You might have them pay half for soil correction or lower the price all together.
As far as the other misinformation. Realtors hide behind that disclaimer "Deemed reliable but not guaranteed"
Good Luck.
I've informed the realtor who is going to inform the seller. I offered to email a copy of the perc test and my offer was declined. That says to me that the seller does not intend to inform prospective buyers that the land failed a perc test. Without a copy he can always argue that he wasn't there and doesn't know how it was done and that it probably wasn't done right.
Ignorance is bliss and sometimes borderline criminal. ..You are probably best not trusting these sellers. Who knows what else they did not disclose.
Better you spent the money for the perc than being stuck with an expensive or impossible problem.
I have lost money on surveys, inspections, and lot corrections to have a city council or other issues put a stop to the project, it sure does bite, but it's part of the business.
Be patient. You will find another lot.
Hasbeen-
In your response, you say that you've told people that you would sell property to them with the bugs, as long as they sign written acknowledgment that they know about the bugs. That's a respectable and solid way to handle it.
Later, you talk about due diligence and how the buyer has to do it all. I agree with you to a point. There are a bunch of sellers out there who know things about property that the buyer should be aware of that they purposely hide. It could be physical condition like the water spot under the rug, or the termites under the finished ceiling in the basement, or it could be a well or septic that's on it's last leg, or it could be a title issue like a road or border dispute. The title stuff can be insured against to a point, but most of the rest of it can't.
Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is gone. The government is regulating our conduct more and more. In the case of real estate, New York and other states are going to mandatory written disclosure. Why? Because there are too many people that are getting hurt. There's too much fraud, maybe you would prefer to call it "concealment". We have no duty to disclose it so we'll just keep quiet about it. There's a legal end and an ethical part to it too. It begs the question when you say "The buyer should research it." To a point that's true, but what about the sellers' ethics? They should have some.
One of my old bosses was selling a car a few years ago. It was a 15 year old convertible, a nice car. I noticed it wasn't in our parking lot and asked his wife about it. She said the car was at the shop, getting some little things worked on so that they could sell it with a clear conscience. They wanted to sell a good running car so that the buyer would be happy. The world would be a better place if there were more people like that, whether it 's cars, real estate or whatever.
Don
I don't mean that the buyer must do it all, most good brokers will help, but my point is that the buyer takes the biggest risk - by buying - and therefore should double check everything. i.e. People often ask us, "What is the county/city rule about such and such?" I'll tell them what I know, but I also send them to the P&Z office, the building inspector, the health dept, division of water resources, etc. Rules change. Buyer's need to take responsibility for what they are doing. That said, sure, we get plenty of buyers who hardly should make decisions on their own and when that happens we usually spend loads of extra time to trach everything down for them. To me, it's different if I have a little old lady with no money to lose compared to working with the rep of a corporation who is simply trying to get me to his/her work.
Never been sued. Never had a complaint to our RE commission on any deal. We are the only office I know of (I asked our auditor) which had a routine audit which showed not one minor infraction - every doc in every file was exactly what the commission wanted to find. Damn right I'm proud of that!
Yes, everyone SHOULD behave ethically, but as you know there are no assurances that they will. That's why we have seller's property disclosures, but no seller can be forced to use one. If a seller won't disclose to buyer or broker, whatcha gonna do? I know.... if it's bad enough, sue'em.
We work with attorneys on a regular basis and, like brokers and everyone else, some are excellent and some are a waste of time."But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
Looks like we agree on 'most everything you wrote. What's this world coming to? Can't even get a good argument, I meant "discussion", going. <g> Good luck with whatcha do.
Don
In California thought the buy apparently has ZERO repsonsiblity.I had seem that sellers have been sued for not disclosing "pertainate information". Like that there is a school a block away. That the area is zoned commercial, that the crime rate is high, etc.All information that is not only "public", but very easily checked out.
I guess we should ask Sancho Ron whether CA has some wierd laws..."But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
YES!http://tinyurl.com/cdfc4New cancer warning on food mulled
Label would cover fried, toasted itemsGreg Lucas, Chronicle Staff WriterWednesday, May 25, 2005Buying cereal, olives, potatoes, bread, almonds -- even prune juice -- at the grocery store soon might come with a cancer warning from the state of California.State officials are considering a requirement that grocery stores, retailers and restaurants alert customers about acrylamide, a carcinogen created when starchy foods like potatoes and breads are baked, roasted, fried or toasted.It would be the state's first foray into warning labels for food other than the warning about mercury in fresh fish.Hotel owners, food processors, restaurants and retailers oppose such a warning, saying it is not justified, would needlessly scare consumers and would cause unhealthful and unnecessary dietary changes."Acrylamide has been around since man has cooked with fire," said Anna-Marie Stouder, senior legislative director for the California Restaurant Association. "We support a labeling exemption for chemicals formed in foods produced by naturally occurring constituents during cooking."The state's Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment says California's voter-approved warning-label law, Proposition 65, leaves it little choice but to issue a warning because acrylamide is on its list of carcinogens."Providing a warning at the point of sale seemed like the best and most reasonable approach," Carol Monahan, the environmental heath office's chief counsel, said at a public hearing on the proposed warning Tuesday.
If ya do it long enough, just breathin will kill ya."But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."
Here is a summary of the required discloures.http://www.south-county.org/REGuides/Disclosures.htmlAnd here is the details.http://www.dre.ca.gov/disclosures.htmI really like this one."6. Window Security Bars A seller must disclose on the TDS or, if mandated, the Local Option TDS, the existence of window security bars and any safety release mechanism on the bars"
I'm glad to live in Colorado!
A quote from our sheriff: "It's the responsibility of all citizens to carry a gun" I'll bet he won't be moving to CA, either!
Oddly, at least one of the things on the CA disclosure list we are forbidden from doing in Colorado: We cannot disclose matters which might psychologically prejudice buyers from purchasing a specific property. i.e. If we show a house where a murder has taken place, we can't tell the prospective buyer! Fortunately, there are only two houses in our town where murders have taken place, AFAIK."But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.... and just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way."