Reality check… bid on this foundation
Here’s a simple footing and stemwall I need to do, or have done, for an upcoming project. The footage of each section is written in pencil, total of ~73 LF.
The footing is 12″ x 6″ and the stemwall is 6″ x 18″. Two #4 continuous in each. Dowel/epoxy into the existing foundation. Anchor bolts in place for form inspection. Three 18″ x 18″ x8″ pads with embedded column bases.
Assume the area is excavated nice and level and you are forming with the floor joists and/or wall studs. Access is easy and all mud can be tailgated. You have a good helper. You can do one pour or two, no short load charges.
How many hours to form the footing and stemwall, form the pads, set the rebar, do the doweling, set the column bases, anchor bolts, pour, vibrate, strip, scrape the lumber, and re-stack?
Replies
Two good knowledgable guys could likely whip it out in 3 days; I'd call it 5 to bid on.
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Maybe no one here does concrete!
David,
here's quick and dirty. I probably missed something.
Add 25% to the total for Variance.
Except where hour types (man/crew) are noted, you can cut the duration by adding manpower.
At 1/4hr to clean a plank at $40/hr that's $10 to clean one plank. Buy new and you won't have to worry about twisting when they redry, nor will you have dried 'crete dulling your saw blades, nor any degradation in strength from contact with highly alkaline 'crete. You can only save 11 @ 12' planks from that pour. I would only use them for blocking.
SamT
Headers Sam, use 'em for headers.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
2 man hrs to layout (2)
1 hour/pad; form and rebar (3)
1/4 hr /corner; form and rebar (1.25)
1/4 hour each for where the forms meet the existing footing (.5)
8 hrs form and rebar except corners (8)
1/4 hr / anchor bolt; template, layout, and set (3)
3/4 crew-hr pour; complete. 1 hr for 1 man and he better know what's what. (1)
1hr strip footing and stack, not clean (1)
1/4 hr / plank; clean and stack. 1/3 hr / dowel; layout, drill, and set (3)
Sam, sounds like 22.75 hours. I know I can't strip that whole deal in one hour, and I would probably pour it in two pours anyway. I definitely know I can't lay out, form, rebar, pour, and strip the entire job in 1.5 days with another man, even a really good one.
Eric, you and me are losing jobs to Sam. He's way faster than we are.
I figured the job at an even 80 hours. That includes time to bring in and supervise an excavator to dig it out, and then backfill it. Time to estimate it, get the material in there, deal with the contracting and billing, do all the talking.
It will take myself and a helper about 60 hours over 4 days to do the actual concrete work. We have to have a couple of inspections and we've got some short days. Add the other stuff onto that and call it an even week for 2 guys.
Hopefully I'm not the only one who can make it take this long. Come to think of it, I know a few guys slower.
David,
Sorry about that. I failed to take into account your experience level.
10,000-20,000 hours of forming time ago it would have taken me that long too.
I remember one job, I stripped a 40' pedastal wall 8' tall in 45 mins by myself, that includes throwing the walers out of the pit and picking up the snap tie clips. . . but not picking up the forms.
I was racing the two guys on the other side.
On that job I was stuck at Carpenters Helper wages by racial predjudice and the other two guys, Carpenters, were the same raza as the foreman.
I beat 'em too.
On that job we allowed 1 hour for 1 man to tie the iron and build, assemble, align, and brace the form for a 2'x2'x2' column.
All we did was concrete, 6 10's a week for 18 months at a time.
SamT
You move here and you could do all the concrete work in the local market, probably make a fortune.
I think most all-around carpenters would be about the same speed I am. I've done a lot of formwork with other guys who do a project mix similar to mine. We're not speed demons.
Sam, your discussion with David illustrates the genius of specialization. I have no doubt about the veracity of your numbers and it makes sense that David would need his time too.
Since I don't normally get onto a job till the foundation is done, my numbers would be closer to Davids. That's why we specialize. Instead of floundering around in the foundation, I'm much better off to stay on a jobsite where I can make the kind of progress that you describe and hire a guy like you to do the foundation.
The irony of it all is that the faster guys will often times do the best work!
blue
Blue,
I think the quality ratio is the same for both the speedy specialists and the slower generalists in just about any given task.
If someone is the type to put quality and care in his work, that's what you're going to get.
It took me three days to roof a 10x16 gable roof on the new shed, but I did a good job.
I think.
Most of that time was spent rereading the instructions on the wrappers ;)
SamT
That looks like one I did last year.
Footing and stem wall as mono pour with dowells drilled into the old foundation
Footing 20" x 12", Stem wall 8" x 24", 70 lf, 3 piers also formed for mono pour
#5's in the footing, one #5 top of the stem. #4's vertical 4' oc, snap ties, All thread protruding about 15" 4' oc for building hold downs - we use all thread through the top plates at 4' oc with two in each corner and on both side of any window or door. Vents and access hole formed.
My records show approximately 60 hours for the concrete work, including the patios for me, one helper and a flatwork finisher for the slabs.
Thanks Ralph, that alleviates some of the humiliation of knowing that Sam is 3 times faster than me. Sounds like we would be comparable since your 60 hours apparently does not include any admin time, or dealing with the excavator, although you do have slabs. You may be somewhat faster, at least compared to what I bid.
Your jobsite is SQUEAKY clean. Looks great. Way to go.
What was your tie-in to the existing roof?
Tie-in.
The existing roof sheathing was cut back so the half trusses could sit on the top plates.
Where we demo'd the exterior bedroom wall the existing rafters and ceiling joists were cut back and hung from one side of a doubled 14" LVL and the trusses from the other side. LVL was set flush.
The ridge was recentered conventionally with 2x6's fastened to a 2x8 nailing plate lagged to the existing rafters and to a new, supported ridge at the half truss ridge tails. H2.5's or H3's complete the fastenings.
Very nice job. It's quite similar to what I'll be starting after the holidays, except I don't have to deal with the existing roof like that as the house is two story and the addition is one.
I like your shoring columns too. My tool fixation lately has turned to things like scaffolding and jacking equipment. I guess I must have enough hand planes.
David,
I have only worked on one forming job so I have nothing constructive to add to that end.
My question is why use concrete? Do the seismic requirements you have limit the use of block?
The reason I ask is, unless SamT is doing the work and billing me, I could save a lot of money using our mason to do the work.
We had a foundation go in about one month ago that was 52 LF (18x16) with three courses of block and brick veneer. The footer was about $500 for material and 6 man hours. The block and brick was $750, the mason charged us $700. Roughly $2,400.
Have you considered block?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
98% of the foundations I see here (and in the Bay Area when I lived there) are reinforced concrete. This is an active seismic area and if I were to use block I'd have to deal with getting rebar in there and filling the cores. I could get an engineer's stamp for that, but the permit I have already is for concrete. There's a mason here who could do it, I suppose, although they mostly deal in stone veneer, patios, chimneys, etc., and I've never seem them doing foundation work.
When I think block, I think... midwest, maybe east coast?
David,Here in VA we have a lot to be thankful for.My wind loads are 90 mph., no seismic considerations, and insulation is not as important as in the North. Actually, I wish insulation was more valued as I would love to be able spend more time and effort on those details, but often enough it's more of an afterthought.I never saw block when growing up in Chicago either. Poured walls all the way.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We have strict insulation requirements here--R21 in 2x6 walls, R38 lids, and R30 floors. That stuff is getting more expensive every week, it seems.