In the current issue there are several drawings illustrating how to replace three way switches. In the one titled Light in the Middle it shows the red and black wires used as travellers and the white taped black as the hot running from the common terminal to the fixture. I have always wired three ways to ensure you ended up with a black and white wire to attach to the light. Am I being too picky?
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"I have always wired three ways to ensure you ended up with a black and white wire to attach to the light. "
That is what you want.
When it is otherwise it can really confuse people that do to replace a light fixture and all they know is "connect all of the black wires together and connect all of the white wires together."
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
And white taped black is as often as not just a neutral with tape over a nick in the insulation.
You mean a how-to home improvement magazine is showing how to do something and is creating a violation in the process. How odd.
OK, sarcasm over.
It is EXTREMELY irresponsible for magazines such as this to show how to do electrical work. It gives folks a false sense of ability, and it typically only shows one way and lay folks think that is the only way.
YES, it most certainly IS a code violation to end up with a re-marked white wire as a hot at the fixture. A re-marked white may only be used on the feed side, not the load side of the circuit.
See NEC 200.7 for more information and the exact code wording.
Look at the 'inspector game' and you see the exact same situation. I don't have a problem with it.
True, this is not the way I prefer to wire such things - where the neutral wire never enters the switch boxes - but it is legal, and does allow for some minor savings in wire.
Just found it in our code too:
4-034(2), 30-620 "Switch connections shall be made so that there is a white wire and a black wire to the fixture".
What if your "black" wire is red, blue, orange, or yellow?
From reference I posted I'd assume it wouldn't meet code.
That might confuse an inspector, but not an electrician.......
Test, confirm and connect.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 10/9/2009 8:21 am ET by JTC1
"You mean a how-to home improvement magazine is showing how to do something and is creating a violation in the process. How odd. "No, I don't.I meant exactly what I said.I was only replying to the OP question. I have not seen the article so I won't comment on it..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Sorry Bill, I don't know why I replied to you. I was making a general reply to the OP.
I didn't mean to make it look like I was questioning you.
There are two issues at hand here:
1) Re-marking white wires as hots (ungrounded conductors). This is generally allowed with certain restrictions.
2) Using a re-marked white as an ungrounded conductor in a SP, 3 or 4-way switching setup. This IS allowed, but ONLY as a supply to the circuit, NOT as a switched wire TO the fixture or load.
Here is the NEC text on this:
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
#1 would appear to subsume #2.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
First of all, I will admit that the way it's illustrated appears to be a technical violation of article 200.7(C)(2), being that the common is wired through a re-identified neutral to return power to the switched outlet and it's only allowed to be used as a traveler in this particular setup. In the process of reviewing the layouts and artwork, I missed the error.
The code is the code, and I would never discount the need for, or the enforcement of the NEC for electrical installations so I won't argue the technical error. The whole point of the NEC is to safeguard the general public and property from electrical hazards associated with residential / commercial / industrial electrical systems however they may present themselves, and the people writing the code felt that this deserved a mention. However, I will tell you that practically speaking, they're all considered ungrounded conductors (hots) in this case. I have seen this particular setup in older homes more times than I could even try to count, and from what I can tell the code hasn't always been clear on the limitations of re-identification of a conductor with white/gray insulation. Hell, even the code itself mentions that gray used to be allowed for use as a hot so you should be careful with existing systems.
That being said, main focus of the article is for fixing and/or replacing components of existing installations, and these are the three 3-way switch setups most commonly found in older and newer homes alike. I have wired 3-ways using all three methods to suite the application and the limitations of the building being wired. And the point of illustrating these particular setups was to give the reader an idea of what they're looking at beyond what they can actually see within a work box when they take off the cover.
So, I apologize for the confusion and this should be a pretty solid reminder to everyone that attempts electrical work within their homes that nothing is guaranteed to be what it is supposed to be. Always make sure the ciruit you're working on is off, and check for voltage before handling any bare conductors.
Cheers,
Brian WaloAuthor of the article in question
Brian, thanks for the reply. The reason I asked for clarification is that as a general contractor with limited electrical experience I only work on the parts of the puzzle I completely understand and am not comfortable deviating from accepted techniques.
You have probably forgotten the sensation by now, but there are few things more disheartening when renovating than opening an electrical box and finding a mass of undifferentiated wires you must somehow make sense of - and it's even worse if the wires aren't the colors you expect to see!
I did enjoy the article and the discussion it has provoked.
Cheers back at you.
Brian: A bit esoteric - but necessary. Been doing some work on daughter's house in MS - what a rat's nest of electrical problems. Especially her three way light circuits. There was one in the kitchen that made absolutely no sense at all till It struck me that what they had done was to run the wires from the switches into the attic to J boxes, one for each switch. All the switching loops were done between the J Boxes, so there was an apparent lack of wires at the actual switch boxes.I do not believe there is a single white conductor in the entire house that is marked black when running in switch loops.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
One last question and then I swear I'll stop.
The first illustration in the article shows the replacement of a light fixture and shows the fixture is connected to the hot and neutral by pigtails. I thought pigtails are used so that the circuit still works when the fixture is faulty. What benefit is there to using pigtails in this situation?
Maybe none ... but then again, there are plenty of fixtures out there that have pigtails coming off of them. Give them some slack for artistic license!
Ah! That is probably what it is. I was just confused because in the other drawings the wires are attached directly to the back of the fixture.
If you consider that all three of the conductors in question are "hot" at the switch (Red & Black as travelers & the white marked black is the common) then the rationale that you should connect "black to black and white to white" already gets thrown out the window... because if you were to connect black to black, and white to white in this case you would short the circuit.
There's no reason you couldn't use black as the common, but you'd still have to permanently re-label the white conductor as hot to be up to code.
Brian Walo
Sorry, I didn't make the connection until now that you wrote the article. It's a good primer and well illustrated. In fact it was by pouring over the diagrams that I noticed the white marked black wire I have asked about. I guess my question now is not whether you could use the black as the common, but rather whether the code requires you to.
The short answer to your question is no, the common doesn't have to be black in this scenario...
The long answer is this:
The NEC doesn't specifically outline required colors for ungrounded conductors (hots) in non-metalic cable (Romex) other than saying they can't be white, gray or green.
However, in this particular situation with Romex you must permamently reidentify the neutral at all terminations to indicate that it's not a neutral... The code says it must be re-identified by painting "or other effective means", so the building official has some leeway as to what's acceptable for re-identification.
NEC Article 200.7 if you want to read about the "Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color"
As I understand it (and it's hard to separate "convention" and code here), the white (without remarking) should only be used as a hot when it's feeding a switch leg. This is straight-forward in a standard "2-way" switch leg, where the white is the "hot" and the black is switched, allowing you to attach white and black to the fixture. In the fixture box the white to the switch leg and the black line in are tied together.
A little more complicated with a 3-way, where the common returning from the second switch would be the "natural" one to be white, leaving no black to attach to the fixture. I'm guessing that this would require remarking the wire, at the very least.
"the white (without remarking) should only be used as a hot when it's feeding a switch leg."Did you mean with remarking?In another forum some one had some old copies of code. And apparently at one time, I believe in the 70's, that the white wire was required to be remarked when used as a hot in switch leg. But a later revision dropped that requirement. I have no idea of it was intentional or not, but the earlier code that was posted WAS HORRIBLY WRITTEN COLLECTION OF WORDS that the one thousand monkeys would have rejected. So might have drop accidentally.But later codes do require the white to be remarked.So there are lots of switch legs whites without markings that where done to code, and lots more that weren't.But I believe that all versions restricted the white to being unswitched hot..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Like I said, there's convention (which is often old code, and other times either "best practices" or, on the other hand, "commonly accepted cheats") and code (and also how the code's interpreted). Hard to keep them straight. My understanding was that there was a specific exemption for 2-way switch legs (and I think I actually found it once). But my NEC dates from about 1980.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I think you're referring to the restriction the NEC places on re-identifying white wires, where you want to make a white wire into something other then a 'neutral.' In general, you are only allowed to do this with larger wires; the code wants you to pull new wires instead.
Yet, the code also recognizes that cables come with wires you can't just pull out an replace, so you are allowed to re-identify white wires in 'cables.' Examples of cables are Romex and MC.
Well, it was more of a general statement. The code is incredibly poorly written in that section A may appear to completely contradict section B (with no cross-reference between the two) and only on careful reading do you come to realize that there is a subtle difference in wording that makes them (in theory) consistent. In general there's no one place in the code where you can go and find all the rules for color-coding wire, eg.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
There are 2 parts of 200.7 that are appropriate to this.From the 2005 NEC."
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes
...(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3). (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green. (2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible."And from the NEC Handbook. The handbook is not code, but background and further explanation."Previous editions of the Code permitted switch loops using a white insulated conductor to supply the switch but not as the return conductor to supply the lighting outlet. Prior to the 1999 NEC, re-identification of this particular ungrounded conductor was not
required. However, many electronic automation devices requiring a grounded conductor are now available for installation into switch outlets. Therefore, re-identification of all ungrounded conductors that are white or otherwise identified by one of the methods permitted for grounded conductors is now required at every termination point to avoid confusion and improper wiring at the time a switching device is installed or replaced. The required re-identification must be effective, permanent, and suitable for the environment, to clearly identify the insulated conductor as an ungrounded conductor. "
Now (2)has to do with a switch loop. And it clearly requires that remarked hot be used as the unswitched hot so that the switch leg black always connects to the fixture black.But (1) is for other cases. And that includes the 3-way with the light in the middle. Now I just picked up the mag and looked at the drawing. As I understand it is OK. But as I mentioned I think that is good practices to always use the black as the wire that connects to the light fixture. Now I have not read the whole article, but glanced at it and notice the suggested to tape the 2 travelers together. I have ever thought of it, but that is a good idea..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill, can you explain why #1 doesn't subsume #2 and make it unnecessary? Seems like #1 says that remarked conductors (in sheathed cables) are OK "everywhere", while #2 says they're OK in a specific situation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Well they both say that you can remark a neutral.But (2) goes on to add that for the specific application of the a switch leg then the remarked white has to supply the switch and not the return to the light.So it is an additional requirement for that application..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Seems like #1 should say "except in the situation stated in #2". But then the code should say a lot of things it doesn't.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
#1 says you can do it.
#2 says where you can use it.
A lot of the fancy language is just trying to say 'DONT switch the neutral." Again.
There are ways -as someone said, with the light in the middle- where you are switching the neutral. This is against code, and they're trying to drive home that point ...
That's one of the reasons I don't like the 3-way arrangement shown in the artwork. I would rather see the power- including the neutral wire - go into the first switch box, switch legs and neutral to the next switch, then a final run (with neutral) to the light. Still, the arrangement shown is legal.
Whatever you do, the light needs a proper neutral, and a proper switched hot to it. You don't want the two wires to 'take turns' being the neutral, and you don't want there to ever be a situation where the light is 'off' because BOTH are hot at the same time.
As the codebook itself says: the NEC is not an instruction manual.
My interpretation of "the light in the middle arrangement" was that it was simply where the fixture box was being used as the junction box for two switch legs. Didn't imply that it was a K&T style 3-way.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Reno, no one is saying to switch the neutral. I am not sure where you are getting that from.
I believe that is what the twisted language of the code is trying to address.
So you can do it ONLY as specified by #2??
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz