Rechargeable batteries – some findings
Sometime back I had some Porter Cable batteries rebuilt. It seemed a good idea at the time. The batteries hold very little charge for a short time. The local franchisee who did the rebuild has folded, and the national operation is not available on the phone, nor responded to my email. Falls in the category of lesson learned, for which I paid about a $200 tution fee.
A friend and I took apart some batteries – old originals that were weak as well as rebuilt ones. The original PC batteries contain Sanyo cells. The rebuilt ones have some generic cells. The PC chargers report the rebuilt batteries as “defectiveâ€. We hooked up both old-not-rebuilt and rebuilt batteries to a variable charger, gradually building up the charge. We found that to some extent we restored the performance of some batteries that I had not yet had rebuilt. (Such batteries suffer from “voltage depression†over time, which can be restored). However, we could not resuscitate the rebuilt batteries.
In the process of investigating power tool batteries I learned some things that others may find useful.
1. The well-regarded cell manufacturers are Sanyo and Panasonic. (Batteries contain individual 1.2 volt cells of given amp-hour rating, and the voltage adds up based on the number of cells).
2. The way the pricing of the above cells works at numerous places I found on the net, it is only marginally less expensive to rebuild batteries with these cells. Personally, I would just buy OEM batteries.
3. The three main power tool battery technologies – NiCad, NiMH, and Li-Ion – have different charge and discharge characteristics. In particular, each is capable of a different number of charge cycles. NiCad’s can take the highest number of charge cycles and are best suited for the power draw characteristics of tools. Some charts I came across indicate that on a per-charge basis, and considering their lowest up-front price, NiCads are about 50% the cost of the next type of batteries. Of course, NiMH, and Li-Ion deliver increasing power-to-weight ratios.
4. Going forward I will pay particular attention to the manufacturers recommendations on battery maintenance. This includes things like frequency of discharging-charging batteries, not leaving batteries on chargers and not leaving chargers plugged in, etc.
The usefulness of some of the above information is limited, because to my knowledge the tool manufacturers do not state which cells are used in their battery packs. I assume that Panasonic tools contain Panasonic cells. Every original Porter Cable cell I took apart had Sanyo cells. As for the others, I have no information.
Replies
NiCad’s can take the highest number of charge cycles
What is the source of that gem, the NiCd mfg association? Maybe per $$, but that's not how it is worded.
You are most welcome to do some independent research ... I looked at many sources and this is a summary in my words.
I remember reading that often when Nimh batteries came out. They said they had a longer life then Nicads.
Nimh had a longer run time per charge, but the battery had fewer charge cycles.
Nicad doesn't last as long per charge, but can be charged more times.
Nimh is supposed to have a longer useful running time over the life of the battery.
Buic
Another thing that I find is that NiMH batteries don't appear to self-discharge as rapidly as NiCads.Of course, the Li-Ion batteries will probably blow them all away.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
A couple months ago I read that you can freeze a rechargeable battery overnight, let it return to room temperature and the recharge. I was a little sceptical but tried it on my old PC batteries and it seemed to work to some extent. I don't think they are "like new" but they certainly are better than before the freezing. On a side note, I bought the PC drill about three months after I bought a Makita maybe four years ago and the Makita is still running strong, with both drills seeing equal use.
Li-Ion cells are 3.6 volt, hence the greater power-to-weight ratio.
What really chaps my a$$ is that if batteries shouldn't stay on chargers, should be fully discharged or whatever,
THE DAM CHARGER SHOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!
A good battery charger knows what to do. Lithium ion batteries do have a higher voltage, but they dont have more power for that reason. They have a higher power density. Lately they have been burning up Dell computers, so look for sodium ion batteries to appear. Supposedly more power to weight ratio.
The guy I work with has all Porter Cable battery powered tools and from what I've seen, I would never buy P C battery tools--the batteries don't seem to recharge and they discharge quickly. I get so tired of grabbing a battery reciprocating saw with a battery that was supposedly recharged all night and feeling like I'd saw faster if I just used it like a hand saw! My el cheapo Sears tools run much better, the batteries last longer and the tools are more powerful. Batteries quick charge, so can recharge in a half hour.
The guy you work with either has a batch of lemons, or he has screwed with the tools and/or batteries in some way. Or maybe it's the newer PC tools ?I have two 12v PC drills and one flashlight. Three batteries. Old stuff, given to me already quite worn by Doug Upah. Plenty of life left in these babies ! One of the batteries lasts about half as long as either of the other two. That one still lasts for an hour of constant drilling, or driving screws.That's not one hole after another after another after another etc, for an hour. But the tool is hardly ever put down during that hour...Doesn't take long to charge one up. I certainly can't "run out of batteries" when working alone, and always putting the run down battery in the charger immediately when I change them. I think I'll try that freezing thing with the battery that doesn't last as long as the other two. I'd heard about freezing them, but I didn't know to let them return to room temp before charging. That's pretty much common sense, but I don't know that it would have even occurred to me. ie, I don't know if I would have thought that far along...I'd kind of like to get a new battery, just because I think it would be even better than what I have. But I don't think that it is imperative...
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
His P C tools are about three years old. He bought several new batteries. I wouldn't doubt that he may have messed up the tools. I remember the day he got down out of the attic after doing some wiring and I smelled sort of a burning smell, but it didn't register fully in my consciousness. He wrinkled his nose and said, "I smell something burning." I said, "Yeah, like burning wiring!" We both thought something was frying in the attic and he ran towards the ladder and I grabbed the flashlight (he'd left it on) and it was too hot to hold--it had fused a lot of its innards and the bulb was welded to the socket.
Anyway, they are nice enough tools and the recip. saw is very handy, but it is frustrating when it only has enough juice to make a two foot long cut in plywood. I have a plug-in Makita recip saw, but Marc will only use it as a very last resort. I guess he just doesn't like using the help's tools. One day I plugged the Makita into an outdoor receptacle to cut a soffit and the thing was running like mad and cutting like a hot knife through warm butter--found out the outlet was wired with 220!
I do like his P C nail gun and pin nailer.
This is a combined response to several posts above, in the interest of brevity.BUIC – I see what you mean about run time and charge cycles. For convenience of discussion, if:
run-time-per-charge x number-of-charge-cycles = useful life, for a given useful life, I’d go with the longer run time. Looking at one variable without factoring in the other is less useful than considering both.DanH - Yes, the self-discharge rate is criterion to be taken in to account.carlmccarty – The freezing approach, as you noted, may be of some help, even if limited. Personally, I am not crazy about sticking a container (even if sealed) of what is essentially active chemical reaction, in the midst of my food (the only freezer I have), even if there is no rational basis for this concern.BryanSayer – I am with you on chargers, which I think should have some basic intelligence built in to them. Also, I think chargers ought to be capable of “exercising†batteries, that is, cycling them through an appropriate number of charge-discharge cycles periodically. I’d even settle for a manual “exercise†button, and manually logging when I exercise my batteries.MarkH – in all fairness, even though Dell has recalled over 4 million batteries, the known instances of burning batteries in the last few months, if I recall what I read correctly, is six.Danno & Luka – Out of curiosity on specifics, I went through my records. From the time I purchased a Porter Cable drill with three 12V batteries (#8623) on a promo, I got about four years of service, probably with some decline in performance in the fourth year. On two PC drills with four 19.2 volt batteries (#8823) I got to about three years when I chose to rebuild two. A few months later, I was able to revive the two not-rebuilt ones to some extent. In all fairness, knowing what I know now about rechargeable batteries, that is a reasonable useful life.In my view cordless tool manufacturers ought to simplify and highlight some key points about rechargeable batteries (others are invited to add/correct this):
1. When new, batteries take a few charge-discharge cycles to attain full capabilities. New batteries are only partially charged in order to maintain their ability.
2. Charge batteries before use, do not store charged batteries.
3. Do not leave batteries on the charger
4. Batteries used regularly perform better than infrequently used batteries.
5. Cycle batteries every month (or whatever), which means discharge and recharge them.
6. Rechargeable batteries do not last forever. If you get 3-4 years out of them, you got value for your money. (opinion: Buy new ones, don’t bother with rebuilds)
7. Heat is the enemy of batteries – includes heat of use as well as environmental heat.I was able to find my way back to a link about batteries, for those interested in delving more in this topic:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/
In particular, see summary chart on tab “PART ONEâ€, third link down - BU3 “What’s the best battery?â€
Not that I disagree with you, but I have at least one battery that specifically says it is ok to leave hooked to the charger (18v B&D for a weed whacker). Now these batteries have never had the advertised run time even after 5 or 10 recharge cycles.And the cell phone batteries (Li-Ion) we were told to NOT let fully discharge.
It would be nice if it were simple. They say the same thing about NiCads - don't let them discharge completely - charge them as soon as you feel a drop-off in power.
Would you like 4 batts, 2 drills and 2 flashlights and 2 chargers in two cases?
Oops..3 batts. I threw one out.
The batts get green on the terminals once in awhile..but they all work.
Xtra to me since I went Makita and DW, and Hitachi for work.
Free to you.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I'm a toolaholic and a collector. Like many here.;o)Of course I'd like to have them.But to be honest, the only reason I would need them would be as a backup in case what I have goes south on me. I don't think that's real likely for a few years.I just stole, (for 150 dollars), a complete makita set from Dieselpig. Drill, impact driver, florescent light, charger and two batteries. 14.4 volt, 2.6 AH.Man these things are monsters !! Precise monsters, too ! They take no hostages. They just get the job done, and don't look around while they're gettin it done.These have just extended the range of things I can get done using cordless tools. They will get a hole through where the rest of my cordless tools will not. And the impact will even drive lags.I live in a situation where I could lose power and have to make emergency repairs at any time. Trees, storms, etc. So having as many around as possible makes sense. Even so... Your sets would serve the same function for you that they would serve for me. Keep them around. Charge them up every once in a while. You never know...And thank you for the offer.=0)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
No big dealy..the wife absconded w/ one of the drlls and hank of sandpaper with 3/8ths dowels...I pray it aint an "arrow shirt" in my future...
If ya need parts, I got them.
BTW..that MAKita stuff does rock, I got the same.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I was looking through the posts from the IWF at Knots, and came across this in connection with Panasonic's pre-view of upcoming Li-Ion tools (link, and excerpt):http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?nav=main&entry=29&webtag=fw-editorsblogLithium-ion is the new NiCD
Our first look at Panasonic's lithium-ion cordless tools was promising (or maybe it was just the clear explanation we got from Doug Bock, the group manager for Panasonic's power tools division). As Bock explained it, every manufacturer is choosing a different core technology for their lithium-ion tools. Panasonic is using what's called "lithium-cobalt," which Bock claims is less prone to overheating and delivers more power than the others.Speaking candidly, Bock told us that the two major pitfalls for lithium-ion tools are the fact that these battery packs can be completely destroyed if they are left on the charger too long or if the batteries are run down completely. Who isn't guilty of doing both of those things, right?Panasonic's drills, due out in October, have built-in mechanisms to prevent against those crimes. Try to draw the battery down completely and the battery will shut off before it's too late. Same thing if the drill starts to overheating. Apparently, most tool makers include this technology in their battery chargers, but leave it out of the tool itself. We'd like to confirm that independently.And from the Cordless tools FAQ's at Panasonic's website:
6. Are there any points to be careful of when storing Ni-MH batteries and Ni-Cd batteries?
The properties of Ni-MH batteries and Ni-Cd batteries are different. To get the best use and longest life from your batteries, you should store Ni-MH batteries fully charged and should store Ni-Cd batteries fully discharged.Nobody said it was going to be simple.
Oh Man now I don't want to spend for new replacment batteries for the 18v bosch after seeing the Panosonic pictures in the thread you included.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to limp along on one good 18v. I guess I could drop back to the 8- 14.4 that all seem to be fine.
Hey Alfie, ya stuck me with a deleted post and it hangs up the thread..could you just post back to me ...even if it is a blank post.
If you don't how it works, if someone deletes a post to someone else, that thread will still show as "unread messages to me" for at least a month or so, or until someone else posts to the victim of that dreaded condition.
So if you won't fix it, some other good natured soul will, I hope.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
It was identical to the next post. I had meant to post it to "ALL", but because I had hit "reply", it was addressed to you. Didn't want you wondering why I was replying to you when there did not appear to be any connection to your prior post. And, it turns out you can't edit the "To" part once you have posted. In short, you didn't miss a thing. I was unaware of what it causes at your end. Hopefully this post will fix it.
Thanks for that. I find your homework/research informative. So, Thanks for that too.
I have recently invested in the 18V Dwalt set, have 3 batts. Makita 14.4 , have 4, Hitachi 12V, 2, B&D 18V, 2 and the PC 12v,3...
I am holding out on any new buys until the waters get clear.
Hoping beyond hope that DW, will make 18V LI batts for the "old" tools. I didnt particularly want to get the DW set, but my coworker had already a slew of the stuff, so we have about everything they make, and we never, ever..get caught without a batt or tool that we need...40' up on a roof, that matters..a lot.
Most of the older homes here do not have outside power, or if they do, I could pop a breaker with a compressor or corded circsaw..with no one home, yer toast. We both have inverters in our trucks and "cook" a battery on the drive to and from the jobs..I put a 6 way power strip on my console, I can cook 3 chargers at once..I average an hour of windshield time each way daily.
I also on the weekends work at home, and cook a battery overnite to refresh from the week..so far so good. All batts are ID'd and numbered, I keep a rotation schedule by date..even day is even # batt...odd day is odd Number.
DW is doing something, both Home Depot and Lowes have had the 2 pack of 18v on sale for 1/2 price...something is cooking out there. I just wadded up with other stuff, but next free change I have,I may get 2 more 18v DWs. Just until the new change happens.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Amazing how similar the cordless experience is. My 14.4 Makita pair lasted about 2 1/2 years and probably have a dead cell. I just bought a new pair on Ebay that were 2.6 (amp-hours?) rather than the 2.2 originals. They're heavier. Back when I had time and interest I would take the 9.6 makitas apart and try to find the dead cell and get a glowing one off another old one. I had a little success - but, it's tight in there. And I didn't come up with a great discovery system. I tried to charge the old junker then open and test the individual cells. I figured that just like 8 tracks and cd's there would always be a problem (the new lithium ion). That would be an expensive mistake to leave one on the charger too long. It might be a good thing to come up with a timer.
I had a 12v Ryobi ( back when they were still half decent tools) that lasted about 5 yrs of pretty constant use..when a batt died, I had a batt shop repack...it was pointless. The drill was never the same.
My first was the 7.2v Makita w/o a removeable batt. I was thrilled...look how far we have come.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I had a 12V Sears-branded Ryobi and had two batteries rebuilt for it. They seemed to give decent service. Had the unit for 15 years, until the rapid charger went out. Bought a trickle charger and gave it to my son.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I wonder if the percieved goodness was not just that we didn't know any better..I mean, we had nothing to compare to?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Well, at the time I got it it was one of the better cordlessw drills around. Did a lot of work with it, and folks would borrow it on H4H jobs all the time in preference to other drills. Made a trip to PR and two to Mexico where the drill kept whole projects moving.By the time the charger died, though, it had been greatly outclassed. Of course, the new Panasonic 15V unit I bought cost twice as much now as the Sears/Ryobi did 15 years ago, so it oughta be better.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Right on. I built a pipeorgan in Chi-town in Feb. Cold as all get out, mostly outside in front of the church, in the snow. Freezing the batts never hurt them.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I can remember the first cordless drill I ever saw - a gutter guy had it. He had shelled out some bucks.When I went to order the 7.2 (from the big city Chicago) the guy said, do you want the little one (7.2) or the big one (9.6). I hadn't even heard about the 9.6, so I think I had the first in this midwest fly over town. It was powerful. It still works too. I turned in a full 5 gal bucket of 9.6 batteries at the hazardous waste pickup.You're right, it has developed. We'll look back on these "ion" batteries like 8 tracks (if we live 5 more years).
I think Rez still plays 8 tracks..LOL
kerchunk.
I recently found a box of betamax tapes I had lugged around for yrs. I have no idea why.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I once had a 4-track -- the Betamax of cartridge audio players.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I learn a lot from the posts here, and am glad that some of the digging around I did is useful for the cumulative knowledgebase here. I can see why you'd want plenty of cordless tools and batteries around - I'd want them too if I was up 40’ on roof.I think I am converging on a solution to the problem we have all been discussing:
1. The CTMA should call for a yellow label on every tool, much like the energy guide labels on appliances. This label would clearly state the following on the tool/battery:
- Average number of recharge cycles good for – XXX
- Store batteries: charged/uncharged (one or the other)
- Run batteries down completely before charging OR Run batteries only to point of power drop-off, then recharge
- OK to use or recharge warm batteries – YES/NO
- Any other pertinent information2. The CTMA would also develop a new standard for a universal cordless tool charger. This charger would be capable of variable output (volts and amps), as well as have the ability to run batteries through periodic maintenance cycles of charge and discharge. The universal battery charger would not accept batteries directly. Instead, it would have an industry standard connector. Each tool manufacturer would supply a cord with each cordless tool, which at one end has a plug that fits the aforementioned industry standard connector, and at the other has a connector that attaches to the battery. Thus instead if having all kinds of different chargers that provide basic functionality, we could all have one or two or three sophisticated chargers that perform all desired functions regardless of tool battery brand. Tools could be sold with chargers, or without, priced appropriately. The landfills will see fewer discarded chargers, and we would derive optimal performance and value from batteries. Manufactures can price such as to maintain their profitability.3. In phase two, which would follow once this approach has penetrated the industry, all batteries would have a small electronic component built in the circuitry. This would specify battery’s charging and maintenance requirements, and keep a log of all maintenance completed. Regardless of which charger the battery is connected to, the charger would look up the voltage/amp needs of the batteries, as well as the maintenances log, and perform all necessary actions.By now you may well be wondering what the CMTA is. It is the Cordless Tools Manufactures Association. I just made it up; it does not exist to my knowledge. (Note: Should this plan be adopted, I would like to be paid a dime (adjusted for inflation after 2006) for every tool sold with this technology. I will spend at least half of that on promoting innovative ideas on tools, in consultation with Breaktimers. All future ideas adopted will have a similar revenue sharing between the proposer and ongoing innovation.)Seriously, the computer industry expanded and benefited from adopting interchangeable components and industry standards. Why not cordless tools? The proposed solution allows manufacturers design flexibility on form factor, and benefits from common standards. The more I read about this topic, I realize how much variance there is. For example, every manufacturer’s Lithium Iron battery may be different, requiring different battery handling.If I were buying cordless tools today, I‘d buy a bunch that share batteries and chargers. (A certain well-regarded manufacturer sells contractor bundles, which combine numerous cordless drills, batteries and chargers.) Reality is, we all acquire tools over time. They are usually different brands, different batteries etc. In my shop I have four cordless drills (eight batteries of three types, four chargers) and four corded drills. This has been so much fun I think I’ll order another cordless drill and a corded drill before I head off for a cup of coffee.
Excellent plan. I like the dime option..you'd be filthy rich in no time.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
OK, once the plan is implemented, please be sure to buy many such tools and ask every one you know to do the same.
Ok, so long as ya pay me 11 cents on each dime (G).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I just bought a new dewalt 18volt cutout tool at Lowes for 52$ with 1 xrp battery and charger and case.
My collection now consists of
2 hammerdrills
2 circle saws
1 recip saw
1 cutout tool
1 jigsaw
1 grinder
1 16gauge angled finish nailer
1 radio/charger
2 flashlights
1 vaccuum
1 impact driver
4 battery chargers
6 good batteries
4 half life batteries
All of these are based on the Dewalt 18 volt system,now individually these tools may not be best in class but as a group they are an outstanding investment an at the present time a great bargain with the transitions into lithium ion batteries causing the discounts.With L.I. batteries costing over 150$ a piece it just seems to costly to risk these tools in a jobsite atmosphere where drops and pinches occur frequently.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Sounds to me like you have a solid "portfolio" of cordless tools which are all on the same "platform". That's more useful than disparate tools, even if your individual holdings are not best-of-breed. As an aside, one must wonder what would qualify as best of breed. As long as a drill, say, has a nice feel to it, and has good performance qualifications, what is to say it is not good enough or that something else is better?I guess you won't be buying tools based on the soon-to-be-released CTMA universal cordless standard any time soon. Dang! There goes a dime.I won't be hurrying into Lithium Ion tools. They'll be commanding a premium until the next great thing comes along. Meanwhile, perhaps I'll step up to NiMh rather than replace failing NiCad batteries.
What causes a bad cell/ defective cell?
I have 3 18v Bosch batteries. 2 came in a kit and one was sent as the bonus. At one point within a week 2 of the batteries would not take a charge from the 15 minute Bat 16 charger.
If I put one on the old style charger it takes it and if I put it on the old style for a couple of minutes and switch to the 15 min charger it takes. But I also don't know if the 2 are the original 2 or a mix. My thought is it is the original 2. I also note that left idle they are shot in 2 days.
Here's a theory on what may be happening. A bad cell develops. The super charger recognizes a short and wont charge. The old style isn't as smart and just throws power to it. After it gets other cells energized it has enough power to tell the smart charger that it's ok.
So with out the smart charger it would just send the power- to good and bad cells. It would create a loop of charge discharge that would accelerate the cycles and result in the rapid failure.
Any electric surgeons out there, help me out here with the operation.
I am experiencing a similar thing with Porter Cable 19.2 volt batteries. I have two chargers, one slightly newer that is labelled "Advanced diagnostic charger". Each of my batteries (they are kind of older) sets off the "defective battery" lights (flashing red and flashing green). When I move it to the older charger, I get the "weak battery" lights (solid green, flashing red). After 5-7 minutes, the flashing red fades, and I have a steady green which is supposed to indicate battery charging. And I am getting some use out of the batteries charged that way.
Somewhere in my research I had read that as batteries age or are not used, they suffer from "voltage depression", which to an extent can be corrected. I am no electric surgeon, but it seems to me that if a cell is defective, a common occurrence, the voltage of the battery simply will not be right. A 19.2 volt battery has 16 cells (1.2 volts x 16 = 19.2). If one cell is bad, the battery cannot attain 19.2 volts. There are probably other outcomes too.
After I posted I went and got the battery fresh off the charger and put it on a meter. 16.96v Watched some tube tonight and just checked it again its 16.49v.
So now I'm gonna tell you about the great battery conspiracy I figured out. To be continued, but it involves big business and the little man.
And don't forget the guy on the grassy knoll. And Mary Magdeline.
Here's the read out from the 3 batteries this AM.
#1 fresh off the charger 15.39
#2 from over night the first battery I looked at.16.32
#3 fresh off the charger 19.33
Now on to conspiracies- If I have ? how many cells? 12 and one is bad. Why not 3 or 5 or 11? I have seen time and again that a standard auto battery with a 3 year warrantee will fail within 1 month of the warrantee, short or long of it.
So that tells me the control over the manufacturing process/product.
Now if I set a policy to insure that due to the fact the customer that buys a multi pack of tools will not be needing anything for the next 5 Years, will be in the revenue stream. Ie 90$ batteries.
I didn't say for sure but just an Idea that needs to be kicked around. And how many seem to have a similar problem?
Let's hear about it.
The last Great American Frontier----Your Wallet.
<< What causes a bad cell/ defective cell? >>
Battery packs are comprised of several small cells that work together as a unified group to power your tool. The system is only as good as it's weakest link. If the cell monitoring technology is shoddy (or non-existant?), one cell may drain past the point-of-no-return while the others still have juice left. If a single cell drains all the way down (and I don't mean like when your drill runs out of juice and needs a recharge - I'm talking all the way down...) it is irreversibly damaged and will not be able to recharge - you just lost that link in the unified chain, and thus, have less overall power (or potential for power).
<< If I put one on the old style charger it takes it >>
I can't tell you the specifics of why the defective battery will charge in the old charging station, but not charge in the newer charging station. I can, however, tell you that this should be a pretty clear sign that you don't want to be charging this battery.
Newer charging stations have electronic monitoring which analyzes each individual cell within the battery pack. For some reason this charging station is trying to tell you not to be charging this defective battery - my advice is to listen to it.
That battery university website is a really great resource, I spoke with the founder (Isidor Buchmann) several times while I was writing the FHB article on Li-Ion batteries. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Part for fun part for real.
So I have an army of 12 soldiers and one in the middle ranks falls down. Do I loose the battle or do I continue to fight on. Ok so either 2 solders take him back to the charger or make a splint and drag him along for the battle. Or we could turn the army around and give up the battle.
I hope by the time were done I'll know what is that stuff in the soldier, and why it caused him to fail. Either the technology is deficient so as to not be able to manufacture a friggin battery without the defect or there is some lousy controls taking place in the manufacturing process that causes me and you to pay for it?
And conveniently at whose expense??????? let's check CEO Salarys????? Hmmm doesn't seem to be coming out of their pocket.
We may be trying to ask for to much performance but I don't think so.
The question is not battery technology it's one stinking cell technology. Why is it failing. And that answer directs my brain to the direction this should go.
Conspiracy? or $Cash$
I had one more thought on this problem.
I guess it's going to mean I have to open up the bat and see what the or where the bad cell is.
I could imagine that if the solders were all lined up that if the head man was being pushed(#12) in the row and the power all came to him then he might take the brunt of all power and all load coming back the other way.
It would make me feel better if both dying batteries are failing in the same place.
Somebody with the electrical engineering base sure could help me out here.
I'd want to know the parameters that make up the reasons for the charger to be suggesting that the battery not be recharged. For instance, the charger may complain when it detects that the battery is at or below 80% capacity (whatever that means). Meanwhile I am chugging along at 50%, and am getting acceptable performance (this is subjective). I'm happy to stretch use of the battery, knowing that it is on its way out. That is a choice for me to make, rather than the charger.
The charger basically has only voltage and current to play with (and, in a few cases, temperature). A battery will be detected as dead if it appears to be "open" or appears to have a shorted cell.An open cell will accept very little current even at a high charging voltage, and as soon as the charging voltage is dropped, the battery voltage will drop below normal.A shorted cell would be detected if application of a small charging current (or perhaps a pulse at a larger current) doesn't result in some minimum voltage.It probably does get a bit tricky to tell the difference between a shorted cell and a "flat" battery. Would require knowledge of the charging characteristics of the cell.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison