I am a regular lurker in these forums and I appreciate very much the amount of knowledge that I learned by reading your posts. Thank You.
I will appreciate any kind of help or advice on a stairs project that I will be starting soon.
I am planning to rip out the carpet that is covering my staircase. It seems to be a regular shop-built staircase. The kind of staircase that you find in regular new construction. I am not sure if I am using the correct term, please forgive me if I am using the wrong wording.
I would like to put or replace it with oak threads and risers.
How do you rip out the current threads and replace it with the new oak threads? The current threads are mortised in the stringer on both sides. Meaning stringers are on both sides of the threads.
My thinking is to rip out the carpet, cut off the nosing of the current thread to make it flush with the risers. A portion of the nosing will remain in the stringer on both sides so my guess is that I will be covering it up with wood putty and then repaint the stringers. Then put on oak thread and risers on top of the stairs.
Is this a good approach? I am kind of worry about the height of the stairs being a little off but, since I am ‘covering’ every thread, wouldn’t that make it even and ok?
Any suggestions, alternatives or guidance will be really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!
Replies
No. It is not a good approach. The stair stringers will not allow tha added thickeness, and it'd be more better to replace the entire thing. Trust me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
no... as sphere says...it's a bad idea..you will creat e a mess and a trip hazard
with housed stringers like you have , you MIGHT be able to go under the back of the stairs, and chisel out all of the glue and wedges..
or take a sawzall and cut right down the middle and pullout both sides from the mortise ...
then you have to install a new pre-built stair.. or cut three horses ( stringers ) and rebuild your new stairs in place..
you could leave the stringers in place and fit to them .. in any case it's a lot of time consuming work
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Eug. I like the idea of sawzalling the treads and removing them from both sides. Then, after cleaning up the existing of foreign parts, build yourself a whole new system. You could sister new stringers to the sides and add one center. Then add the new treads & risers. I bought the Stair Wizard from Amazon that makes nice short work of fitting the treads to the side skirts!
ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Eug, the other posters are trying to warn you about the possibility of creating a trip hazard by ending up with non-uniform rises. They're sounding the alarm...but I'm going to be the voice of reason. You've also mentioned yourself that you have some concern about riser heights...so I think your on track.
For what it's worth..I'm reasonably sure that you will be able to laminate an oak veneer of some dimension onto the existing tread. It might only be 1/8"...or maybe as much as 5/8". The reason that I think it will work is because your removing carpet which is about 5/8" and you will replace it with about the same amount of woodstock.
Your idea about trimming off the nosing makes sense too. That will work fine. The housed stringer seems to be the worst part of this job...but careful cutting, filling and sanding and you will have a "like new" stringer.
I might suggest laminating the existing stringer with 1/8" oak veneer too. Another possiblity is to leave a small strip of carpet (about 4") next to each stringer and just "inlay" the oak treads and risers. You can create dramatic designs using this technique (yes..I've seen it done).
If you decide to laminate your treads in oak, use a two part system...the 5/4 oak nosing and some flat dimension/ply on the treads. Doing this might eliminate any need for fixing the stringers.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Good Idea...wished I thunk of it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I'm with Blue-Eyed on this one. The theory is that all the risers are supposed to be exactly the same, otherwise folks will trip. Their feet will presume that the next step is the same as the last step, and bad things will happen when they're not. In practice, I often see bottom risers or top risers which are not the same as the rest. Either the original carpenter didn't build them exactly right, or the flooring has been changed. I noticed the different riser height because I see stuff like that, but the residents never notice. My theory is that we subconsciously expect things might be different at the end of the stairs, and we pick up our feet a little a higher. It is like the threshold in an exterior doorway. That threshold is often an inch higher than the floor, but nobody every trips over it. A board that tall in the middle of a room would be tripping folks all the time. We subconsciously expect things to be different at a doorway, and pick up our feet without thinking about it.
Jamie, its amazing how many builders, and finish carpenters screw up the bottom riser.
I've always attempted to get the rough tread set up for the finish. One time, I framed a large custom...maybe 5000sf. There was tile to be set on the foyer that totaled 1 1/4". I reasoned that the carpet would be about 5/8" so I made the first riser 5/8" more. The finish carpenter came in...bicching to the builder that I screwed up the stairs and he had to fix it by laminating a 5/8" plywood to every riser!
So the builder and I went over to look at it after the tile was done. I explained why the first riser was now going to be 5/8" less after carpet...and walked him to the top of the stairs and showed him that the top riser was now a 5/8" trip hazard!
I didn't get backcharged for that "fix".
Another time a superintendent gave me a detailed drawing that explained in minute detail how the first riser should be 3/4 more because of their system for finishing. Like a dang fool, I just followed their details. After I was done with the set of stairs...I remeasured and rethought out the detail.....THEY WERE 3/4" WRONG! I spent the next half hour sawzalling and boogering. When I pointed out the obvious mathmatical error to the superintendent..he just looked at me like I was crazy and told me that all the other stairs in the sub were okay and they were done like that!
It seems so simple....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
jamie... you're full of crap..
everyone notices when risers are different heights
gimme a break..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Most Realtor's refer to it as "charm"
Jon Blakemore
LMFAO!!!
Mike, I disagree. The bottom riser on most stairs that I've encountered are different. They usually are slightly smaller. The significance is less dramatic because the first step on a set is taken after the person is taking normal strides on a flat surface. The mind has not set up a mental pattern yet. The same is true of the exit. When a person steps off the last riser onto a flat floor, they are no longer constrained to the maximum tread depth of 9 or 10". This change sends a mental message that alerts them to automatically forget the rythmic pattern that they have just encountered and causes them to readjust their stride.
A 1/2" change in the middle of a set of risers is very significant. A 3/4" change at the bottom barely registers. I know that because Iworked on rough sets of stringers in homes that have that much difference in the bottom in the rough.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue... then you're dealing with hacks... the houses you are in are built by hacks..
getting a stair right is not rocket science..
the finish floor to finish floor height is EQUALLY divided into risers conforming to code requirements..
after that , it's just carpentry.. if a stair builder can't do that , he should stick to something he /she knows how to do.
two main reasons for stairs being wrong:
they don't know how to do it
or
someone changes one of the finish floors after the fact..
in both cases the result is the same... it's a hack job..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike....to quote an old friend...your being "bombastic"!
Heheheh I never thought I would use that word in a sentence.
In the world of construction...all things are not science...and you can't realisticlly tear everything apart and start over.
So..in order to understand how I can avoid being a "hack", tell me, what is the exact height of carpet? We all can figure the exact height of a hardwood floor and tile...but...please tell me EXACTLY how thick I should figure for carpet.
Now Mike...please be careful here...I don't want to be a "hack". Tell me what the thickness is now, three months from now, and two years from now. I'm not going to tell you which style of carpeting..or padding either.
"Hack"...heheheh now your starting to sound like Gabe!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
yeah, well... i was gonna go back and edit that to try and remove the implication that YOU were a hack..
but we do get known by the company we keep.
and since i was heating up some liberal soul food (spinach quiche ).... you beat me to it..
as to carpet.. add 3/4 and forget it..
that's a red herring and u no it..
carpet means you're stepping from a sot yeilding surface to an unyeilding one.. there's enough tactile difference to signal the change
and.. carpet also can mean that if the floor is carpeted , the stairs will have a runner or be carpeted themselves..
but you didn't have carpet in mind when you posted anyways.. you really did mean that the carpenter/stairbuilder/GC got it wrong and the first riser or last riser was different than the others..... didn't you?
be honest here... what you were really sying is that a lot of tract houses get it wrong..to the point that it has almost become accepted.
what i was saying is that it is not acceptableMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'm just feeling a little put out... early snow is threatening my tee time tomorrow
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/13/2004 10:44 am ET by Mike Smith
Remember to use orange balls and don't bother editing that post...my partner just told me that he saw a rough framers company truck with the company name:
"HACKERS "R" US!"
Hacking just isn't what it used to be anymore!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
there's always someone out there buying whatever is being soldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks you all for all of your responses.
Removing the staircase and installing a new one right now is beyond our budget and not very likely.
The risers seem to be consistent in height and I am thinking since I will be putting the same thickness material on all the treads that it should be ok. When I remove all the carpet, I will be able to tell how consistent in height they are.
The first riser at the first step is 5 1/4". The rest seem to be at 7 1/4. The current oak flooring was installed (contracted by previous owner) over two layers of vinyl sheet flooring and one layer of 1/4 ply underlayment. To make matters more 'interesting', the original wall moulding was not removed and the oak flooring was installed tight against it. All they did was to put shoe moulding to cover the non-existent expansion gap. Because the wall moulding was not removed when the oak flooring was installed, only half the moulding is showing and then the shoe moulding was installed against it. This is slightly visible in the Stairs1 photo, lower right corner. In my opinion, it looks really crappy. Another thing, lots of the flooring strips were installed in a stair (waterfall) pattern. Some just 2 inches from each other. Ok, enough complaining about this...
My thinking was similar to blue's idea. I was planning to using 3/4 solid oak, using a round over bit to create a nosing. The only thing is that it looks like I will have to buy 10" or 12"wide stock.
The other idea was to get stair nosing -> http://www.plumlyflooring.com/mouldings.html, and fill the rest with regular hardwood flooring strips. I am just a concerned about the number of nails or screws fills showing.
The other concern and challenging issue will be from cutting the current nosing. I am planning to use a flush saw at the ends, on the stringer side, and fill the gaps with wood putty. Maybe the new treads will cover some of this area.
If I go with the idea of using stair nosing and strip flooring, I am toying with the idea of using oak engineered flooring planks (as a veneer cover) for the risers. These boards are 7 1/4" x 48" seem to be ideal for this and the cost savings might be good. One bundle is about $57 at HD. They are pre-finished and I will just have to cut them to size.
I appreciate any kind of input, criticism or ideas. I will try to post some photos...
Your comments are very helpful and appreciate it. THANKS!
Edited 11/13/2004 1:14 pm ET by eug
eug... you can work it out... almost anything can be worked out..
the pic you showed says 8 1/2" rise
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another thing you can do is rough cut the nosing and finish with a flush router bit.. chisel out the cornersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I wasn't sure how to measure for the risers so what I did was measure from the top of the bottom tread to the bottom of the upper tread. That's how it got 7 1/4"
Eug
eug.. it's top of tread to top of tread on a finish stair..
this is the "rise "
the total rise is finish floor , from where the stairs LAND to finish floor where they END..
which is different than "floor to floor " height in old houses ... the flors can be really out of level which throws the measurements off..
lasers make this a little easier to get it right than it used to be Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. I appreciate the clarification.
Question about wood puttys (putties? sp?), which one is a quality putty? I have been using the Elmer wood puttys and they seem to be doing ok. I have not noticed any shrinking or cracking yet. I used it on the new wood floor that I laid down in our living room.
Mike, his first riser is off so much....I'm going to offer a new idea.
Eug....your first riser is off by 2" which is a trip hazard. You really need to rebuild the entire set. That doesn't mean that you have to tear out the old...it just means that you probably should think about laminating over every tread. You need so much that you probably won't have to tear any of the old stuff off...just double it all up including new risers that will nail to the facing of the old tread nosings.
YOu really need to revamp that set. Refigure what the "real" rises should be and do it right!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
My thoughts are get a high quality wood putty if it going to show... not an off the shelf thing and check it out for color match in a small hidden place... the oak won't change color too much as pine would (darken considerably) .... hey... confidence in the manipulation of materials as my father would say.
I'm being honest here Mike....the tract homes have a much higher chance of being exact becaue the floor choices are so much more limited.
We rarely deal with stairs that have hardwood finishes in the walk area. The only one that comes to mind was the one that provided the exact detailed sketches that were WRONG....which I found ironically delightful.
The stair situations that I'm referring to are the customs which always seem to produce a wide variety of actual finished heights after the carpet is installed. I once had a discussion with a real fine quality "old style" builder. The old guy agreed with me that my theory regarding the first riser height was precise...but if I did it that way he'd never pass the inspection...because the inspectors measured on the rough..not on the finish. He just told me...."add 1/2" to that first riser, I know it will pass...in ceramic tile situations." I know he's wrong..but he's right!
I've also spent a few days in an upscale apartment complex, revamping stairs that were carpeted. The inspector was laying his legal pads on top of the pile carpet and demanding that every rise be within the tolerances. That way an interesting experience...I don't remember how I solved things...but I did. There isn't any way you can predict how that would pan out in the rough framing phase!
Building stairs demands attention to detail...but I stand by my original thoughts on the first rise...it's not as critical as some would suggest.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I think you should reconsider the whole idea. Stair-building is a fine art, and not to be lightly undertaken.
Tom
If your really set on those stairs being oak and you've got a lot of patience You can sawzall the treads in two places and pop them out. Then you can replace the housed with 2x blocs scabed to the stringers to support the new oak treads 5/4" or dressed1+1/8th. The idea is you can't fit the tread into the stringer so it has to lay on the top of the scab blocks and has to fit perfect. Then on the risers you can use oak ply wood faced to fit perfect. That's what will give you the look if you have the time to tackle it.
Final fit for the parts with sanding block, sand sand sand.