You’ve probably answered this a thousand times, so sorry for the repetition, but I’m trying to figure out how to make my new upstairs bathroom safe for a ton of cast iron and water.
My house was built around 1840, and the new bathroom will be over the kitchen, which has, get this, 17-foot span “joists” (tree trunks that are approx. 8 inches in diameter). No posts whatsoever apart from the exterior walls. The tub will (hopefully) sit right by the exterior wall, and will run across two of the preexisting joists. Unfortunately, it will be directly above the kitchen door.
When I mentioned our plans to put a clawfoot upstairs, our mason started laughing and predicted that it would immediately crash through the floor. He suggested that we attach a steel I-beam to the girder above the door and run it (parallel to the joists) in about 8 feet to the back staircase where we could drop another post to support it. Would that do it for the tub? How on earth would I attach an I-beam to a 10″x10″ 25-foot-long piece of wood? Are there other things that we should do or consider? At this point, the room is completely gutted, so it’s a fine time to figure this out. I just don’t want to panic every time I run a bath. Thanks.
Replies
Greetings krick,
As a first time poster Welcome to Breaktime.
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.
Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
I doubt I can help, but can you post some pictures? Particularly the existing support system and where the tub and plumbing will go. Will you have to drill/cut through anything to route the pipes?
I photo attachment would certainly help immeasureably, as well as some more detail to clarify things. From what I hear so far, your mason is out in left field, but since he can see more tha i can...
Is the floor above bouncy in any way?
What sort of subfloor and flooring material above span the area between the log joists? Does it give or sag when you walk there differently than when you stand right above the "joists"
Do either of these joists land right in the midspan above that kitchen door you mentioned? or do they land on either side of the door? if in the middle, what sort of header is there?
Are any holes drilled through or notches cut into the joist beams? Watch out for the plumber when he rough's in, or plan to let him drop below them for waste lines. Plumbers are death on structures once they get the sawzall out.
Finally, there are easier ways of resolving this, than with an i-beam, normally, and unless you have something gargantuan, you are likely to be fine. Myself and another guy moved a casrt clawfoot this AM. I don't believe that either of us had more than 150# each. Water is roughly eight pounds per gallon, so you are looking at only about 7-800 opounds. Three masons standing together to discuss where to throw the next brick weigh as much, easily, as you will have with a fully loaded tub. Have any of them fallen through the floor yet?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Lol. Thank you for the replies. I'd post a picture this second, but I just realized my camera battery was dead. Hopefully after another paragraph, it'll be ready to go...
The floor is not at all bouncy, and has no apparent sag. Doesn't give in the least even when my 200+-lb husband walks on it. The floor is 12-inch or so wide plank (pine, I suspect), and the subfloor is 15-16-in wide planks that span that entire section (so they're about 25 feet long).
The joists land on either side of the door. The header is a 15-in square girder. There are some small holes drilled through a few sistering joists, but only one or two through the original joists. (The sisters are at least 100 years old, too, and were probably there just to hold the lathe.)
Aha, now the camera's working. Okay, we're pulling out all the junk visible there, and we're not cutting through anything to run the plumbing. What do you think?
You took that picture in my house! That is MY kitchen ceiling...but your door looks to be in better shape than mine...
I will certainly be interested in the responses.
Cheers!
My take as a non-pro is this: Basic structure looks plenty sound. Make sure that the joist ends are securely anchored (it's not unusual to find them just toe-nailed to a beam in these old homes). Add joist hangers or other reenforcements if you're in doubt.Have your carpenter add solid blocking between joists in the area of the tub (though with knowledge of where the pipes will need to run). This will stiffen up the floor significantly.The floor itself sounds plenty solid, but just in case you can have some small (roughly 4x4") squares of stainless steel (about 0.1" thick) cut to fit under the legs. This spreads the load a bit and keeps the feet from digging into the floor. May initially need dabs of construction adhesive or some such though, in order to keep the tub from "skating" until it's "settled in" a bit.
>Make sure that the joist ends are securely anchored (it's not unusual to find them just toe-nailed to a beam in these old homes). Add joist hangers or other reenforcements if you're in doubt.
I second this. When I opened up my kitchen I found toe-nailed joists a good 1/2" off the main beam. There was also some indications of movement in the upstairs floor over the last 10 years. So its wasn't something that settled in a 100yrs ago and has been stable since. I try not to think how the rest of the house is attached, but at least these have hangers on them now.
eric
Luckily, our joists are notched in; in one spot (where another joist would fit nicely, actually) I can see that the joist goes into the girder about four inches. Thank god for that, at least.
I think you will be fine as is with a couple minor disclaimers.Those kinda look like unpeeled framing members. About half the time I see that, there are bug infestations that have weakened the lumber. Poke around, peel some bark, and look for signs, powder, series of holes etc. Maybe drill a couple 3/8" holes to see if it is solid or not.I would probably also go ahead and add more joists just like the sisters at halfway in the open spaces while you have it all apart. good insurance on the spans and not that much cost. It will also make finishing the cieling off a lot easier. Hang them at the ends with joist hangers.now go tell those masons to quit pulling your leg or you'll put a krick in their necks;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thank you all for the advice. I'm glad to hear that our mason was, shall we say, overcautious. I will definitely poke at the joists to see how solid they are, and new sisters and blocking sound great.
The trick with our kitchen is that we really can't put any more posts in it without making the room impossible to walk through. (It was once broken up into these horrible little compartments, which made a galley kitchen out of a 25'X17' room.) We could do maybe one more post at the bottom of the back stairs, and that could perhaps support another joist in between the two over the door... Anyway, with your suggestions I'm sure we'll figure something out.
Will also do the metal squares under the tub. Great idea.
And my sympathy to the homeowner who also has our kitchen. ;)
Thanks - I need all the sympathy that's going around. Hoping to be able to post some photos of my house soon. Meanwhile, best of luck!
I don't know if you are planning on tiling the floor or anything, but if you are, I'd pull up those floor boards for use else where. You won't find them at any store, that's for sure.
View Image
View Image
Sam-Thanks for brightening those pics.
I'm on a dialup computer now and I'll tell ya any of these guys that think of posting 200kb attachments should be hung up from their thumbs and spoke harshly to.be a backwoodsman
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
Okay, you are unlikely to need an I-beam, or that's the way it looks from the info you've posted so far.
However, reinforcing the floor structure under a CI clawfoot is a good idea. They are heavy, no two ways about it.
You mentioned it would be right above the kitchen door, near the exterior wall. Do you mean the kitchen door going through that outside wall, or another kitchen door leading to, say, the dining room or whatever...?
1. Check to see if there is a sufficient header (lintel) over the doorway in question; many old houses do not have them. If not, figure on installing one that will meet code for the weight you are predicating.
2. Examine your floor plans to see if there's a possiblity you could put posts or supporting partitions in the kitchen without ruining your whole set up. Your outside wall should hold up one end of those joists. I would prefer to put a beam--supported by a pair of posts (or a short wall)--at the other end of where that tub will be sitting, running perpendicular to the joists.
A wood beam will be fine if you have the room for it in or directly under the ceiling. You didn't mention if the joists are exposed or covered. You can get the scantlings for a built-up or solid wood beam from most code books. You could also use a section of round log for the beam and two more for the posts, to match the joists, if the entire arrangement will be visible.
Edit: Sorry, I don't know why I didn't see your post to Piffin with the photos before I posted this reply; computer has been acting strange all day...and me with it, LOL....
I can't see the girder you mention as a 'header' in either photo; the entire exterior wall structure looks like post and beam, tho, so there must be something there. But just based on the photos, if that tub will be parallel to the outside wall (ie: lying across a couple of joists close to the wall supporting them), you'll probably be okay as is.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Edited 7/5/2005 6:51 pm ET by Dinosaur
Edited 7/5/2005 7:03 pm ET by Dinosaur