Gee, I hate plumbing, so I got a quote for the rough-in on my kitchen remodel:
Includes Material and Installation as Follows:<!—-><!—-> <!—->
- Relocate gas piping to range, extend gas piping to BBQ and fireplace. <!—-><!—->
- Connect gas appliances provided by owner.<!—-> <!—->
- Island drain and vent also water piping to vegetable sink.<!—-> <!—->
- Move existing kitchen drain over to meet new sink center.<!—-> <!—->
- Move icemaker rough plumbing.<!—-> <!—->
- Stub waste and water piping for two lavatories and one tub to upstairs bathroom above kitchen.
The quote for the above (not including cutting up the sub-floor for access and replacing it afterwards: $7390. I must be in the wrong business. No insult intended to you skilled plumbers out there, but wow! Maybe I’m way off, but I would guess this job at 4-5 days work for a journeyman, probably twice that for me. Subtracting some for the materials, it’s about $170 per hour.
I’ll probably get the pro to do the gas piping, but I guess there are a few nights and weekends of DIY plumbing work in my future…and electrical, drywall, paint, trim, flooring, etc….my DW is going to get REALLY tired of not having a kitchen!
Replies
Just think of all the money you save when it doesn't work right.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
and how do you know that it won't work right?
without insulting the entire membership of this forum....construction, plumbing, and electrical isn't rocket science.
regarding the quote...the plumber has the right charge what he feels is necessary, the HO has the right to ask WTF and decline to hire the guy. what is it to you if this Ho feels he can achieve a better value by DIY.
I don't. And it might. But what I said was a cautionary note.
Chill.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
I like when you talk like a homeboy ;-)
Are you off the wagon after the pub crawl yet?
Sounded like ya'll had a great time.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
Time to get back on the wagon, was never sure which expression meant what. Time to stay on the Moxie (a Dr.Pepper like soda Piffin brought down from Maine). Was a great time, hopefully I'll meet you at the next. It was top heavy with democrats I think ;-)
The "wagon" is the temperance wagon that drunks were urged to climb onto by the Women's Temperance Union ladies.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Well, like they say one riot one Repub..........<G>
I'll have to find a way to ship some Lone Star beer to the next one. Thought about that after Doud sent the peaches.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
What's wrong with Democrats?
Don't tell me that after that time we hung out, you're one of those others.
And ya had Dragonic there, for a few hours anyway.
<G>
Are you kidding me? I'm with you, I'm one of the good guys. Manhattan voted 88% Dem, believe me I'm not in the minority.;-)edit: The only thing wrong with Democrats is that they better get it togethter before 08'.
Edited 8/25/2006 8:24 am ET by TGNY
Sorry, hadn't meant to insult you <G>
I knew you seemed more intelligent than that <G>
...." without insulting the entire membership of this forum....construction, plumbing, and electrical isn't rocket science."too late...this is rocket science.........Time of flight = 2V sin á /gRange = VxV sin 2á/gg = 32.2 ft/sec/sec
á = initial launch angle.
V= velocity.all the locales were plumbers and sparkys need to be licensed is just so they can control the market, huh?.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Edited 8/22/2006 6:54 pm by maddog3
clever maddog...but while you were basking in your whit you missed my point.
just because the OP isn't a licensed pro doesn't mean he is incapable of doing a quality job on the plumbing which is what the first response indicated.
didn't miss your point at all,I just always enjoy the"bash the contractor for (........................) threads.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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i didn't bash the contractor. there is quite a bit to being a pro than doing the actual labor...but for a DIY job you don't need to worry about the business side. if the OP is a handy fella there is no difference in labor and quality between him and the pro.
well sometimes there is a huge difference, but most of us learn by doing. or end up paying twice.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
if the OP is a handy fella there is no difference in labor and quality between him and the pro.
You really believe that?
Is every "handy fella" as good as the guys that's been doing it for years or just this one?
Doug
H@!!, half the time I get guys who've been slogging at it so long they don't give a s##t anymore, or tatoo'd slackers who just hired on yesterday!
here is my point.
i can measure and cut a piece of wood as good as any carpenter in here.
i can frame a standard wall as good as any contractor in here.
i can hang a door as good as any contractor in here
i can sweat a joint as good as any plumber in here
i can rough in electrical, terminate into a circuit panel, and connect an outlet as well as electrician in here
i may not be as fast and efficient but the when you examine my work next to the tradesman when finished there is little difference. lets be honest, most tasks a DIY guy does are basic. we are not trying to build and install eleptical stair cases like stan foster...
some of you get bent out of shape when a HO reveals that they will do the work themselves, as if you hold the key to a secret fraternity of construction expertise. no need to be offended that people with office jobs can swing a hammer too.
the tasks listed above are not difficult for a handy individual with the right tools. as a DIY guy myself, I know my limits...which are usually time and resource based, not task complexity. as time goes by i am more likely to pay someone to do the work. i am finding i enjoy keeping my weekends free from home improvement tasks.
I can't argue with what you said.As a contractor off and on for 40 years I'm a complete fan of DIYers. An informed DIY guy most often does a better job than a so called 'pro' in a hurry.The bottom line most often is either time or money. Once you have the money it gets harder to spend the time, but before you get to the stage where you have the money most folks can find the time when needed.There is an endless supply of threads here showing that both pros and DIY guys can either screw things up completely or do a good job.
>An informed DIY guy most often does a better job than a so called 'pro' in a hurry.
I agree.
When I started building my garage last year (which I hope to get a roof on this year!), the guy I hired to pour the foundation stressed to me to make sure I dug the trenches for the footings straight and wide, so he'd have plenty of room to get the forms straight. It was basically a 4' frost wall for a 24x36 building, but it drops off at the back so that I had to go 12' deep in one corner.
When he came to set forms, his comment was "I wish you had dug the last job I did - it was done by a 'professional', but was a nightmare".
I was using my dad's backhoe, which I didn't have any real experience running before I started.
My advantage was time. I allowed myself about 3 weeks of weekends and evenings to do the site work, which allowed me to get fairly proficient with the backhoe and get the job done. No pressure to meet payroll, pay for equipment, etc.
Now, once I get this pesky wedding thing taken care of this weekend, I hope to get some serious work done on the roof and siding.
Don
I hope to get some serious work done on the roof and siding
If you have not considered it or already have one, a coil roofing nailer is worth it for just a few quares unless you are still under 30. Should have bought one myself 25 years sooner than I did.
BT is one of the best place for Do-it-yourselfers.
Over the years when in libraries, I would look at How to do it books. None of the books tell you the pitfalls of what could go wrong. Most of the time the information in books is general. Sometimes I an too general, and Piffin lets me know.
I just love it when friends call me up about house problems. Most of the time, I explained what the tradesman did wrong and what to do to prevent it.
Locally there is no old wise old man to go to, BT is it. We all learn from ours and others mistakes and experiences.
No dIY jack of all trades can do all that as good as any top hand in the trades.
Heck, I've been doing it all for thirty five years and I would never say I can hang and trim a door as well as any carpenter here.
I'm sure you can do it all acceptably, but to claim you can do it all top quality is only making you laughable.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
plumber buudy keeps telling me
"If this sh$% was easy, everybody being doing it"
it is arguable. it depends on how anal i am being and how much time i take to make it "perfect". it is all relative to my expectations. if we are talking head to head with a 30 minute time frame...I lose hands down. if we are saying...time is no object and I take 3 hours to fuss through it, scrap a piece or two of casing, and finish with a quality job while saving a few hundred bones than it is very possible.
it is a matter of skill, tools, patience, and time. tools, patience, and time can make up a lot of ground on skill.
That's all true within the tolerances of anal degrees, but probably when you fall short is where you lack experience to even know what it is you don't know.Like Doug, I am not anti DIY. probably a quarter to a third of my career up 'till a couple years ago was involved with helping or working with DIYs. Never yet seen one who knows what he thinks he does. Lot of false pride tho.This is a great forum for DITs unless they come in to insult the pros. i'm sure one factor in this discussion is that HOs make assumptions based their one or two or three experiences with a bad pro, then come here throwing stones at all pros, not realizing that the bad ones rarely stick their heads in here, for fear of getting it bit off. This is a forum that for whatever reason attracts some top dogs in the industry.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin,you've helped me out a couple of times and i appreciate that help and all the others' help as well.sometimes (been there recently myself) when i hire a contractor for my "fixer upper" and it doesn't go as i had hoped, it is usually due to my ignorance about a job.......a condition you'd expect from someone who isn't in the trades. it's demeaning, disappointing, disallusioning, and a whole lot of other things, and hard not to wonder "are there any good workers" out there. there are,.....this forum proves that. i hope that it isn't too general to say that we all "generalize" as we shouldn't.i've found that you have to be VERY careful how you word things in this forum. if i were to make the same mistake this poster did, i hope you'd take it with a grain of (frustrated) salt.
I believe you coulc hang a door and trim it to near perfection in a few hours.........I wish I could get a "couple a hundred bones " to hang a door....DIYers can and do high quality work........it all boils down to what your time is worth
"No dIY jack of all trades can do all that as good as any top hand in the trades."
Not quite true. I knew a guy in Pittsburgh that bought an old home, and remodeled it top to bottom, ripping off sections of roof, adding more, doing bumpouts, complete to-the-studs-and-joists ripouts inside and going all new, totally high fashion and high end everything.
Did it all himself. Exterior and interior details taken from the Greene and Greene patterns. Totally new plumbing and heating systems. And it was perfect. You would inspect and agree. His garage was one of those "garage mahal" type showcases you see in the annual garage issues of Motor Trend mag, and that is where he did his frame-up restorations of classics like the 1936 Cord saloon.
I've seen guys here, totally DIY, remodel B&Bs and houses and small motels, and do everything themselves except for the heavy lifting like foundations and maybe an engineered sprinkler system. But everything else, all the carpentry, the flooring, tile, plumbing, electrical, finish work, painting, everything, all done by them with their own two hands. Also perfect, and if you inspect, you will agree.
The OP's work scope in discussion here is plumbing, and despite the feelings of some that it may be closer to rocket science than, say, the fine carpentry some show here on the Photo Gallery, it is just plumbing, and there are plenty of how-to manuals to consult as to how to do it right.
If you wish to see some DIY examples of complex plumbing jobs, go over to The Wall forum and see what the boiler rooms of some of the DIYers look like.
Where can I find this "Wall Forum". Google is not helping me here....
http://forums.invision.net/Main.cfm?CFApp=2Tom
Douglasville, GA
Try this http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFID=2745837&CFTOKEN=4057e1-f2e90661-985d-4807-903a-7ce502c9a219&CFApp=2l.&
And if that does not work for you, go surfing with "heatinghelp.com" as your searchword.
I think most people on this forum seem to treat everyone the same , pro or DIY. Almost as friends.If you want to see real hatred of DIY people, go to hvac-talk.com where the pros describe even changing a circuit breaker as a death defying act that can ONLY BE DONE BY A HVAC PRO. The exact qualifications to become a HVAC pro are a little vague however.
If you want to see real hatred of DIY people, go to hvac-talk.com where the pros describe even changing a circuit breaker as a death defying act that can ONLY BE DONE BY A HVAC PRO
Know just what you mean (have pro status there myself due to a few thermal jobs similar to mcf's), you have to know the terminology and ask just the hard questions. Nowhere near as friendly as Breaktime. There are quite a few "pro" HVAC people on that site that try to spout gospel about electrical matters, when in reality they have no clue what they are talking about. That type gets corrected real fast on BT.
I agree with you completely about the HVAC-Talk forum. I make my living as a design engineer, primarily in the HVAC field. I find the HVAC talk would be better named HVAC Union Technician Blog. I don't learn much there and don't like the tone. Much better here. HeatingHelp is OK is you're a plumber installing boilers.
Regardless of the trade or profession, there those that excel at it and those that do not. Some are very helpful and willing to share their knowledge and experience and some are very defensive and combative when faced with the possiblilty that someone without their great skill and knowledge could attempt to perform the same task that they alone are anointed to perform. I think the response is more based on personality than skill set.
As far as DIY, I do it because I like it. I enjoy many of tasks that I could and in some instances, should, pay proficient people to perform for me. It has nothing to do with comparative assumed skills or lack there of. I also believe that if one is going to perform a task with which they have no familiarity soley to save money, that is an unwise choice.
Edited 9/7/2006 10:05 am by Tim
Heck, I've been doing it all for thirty five years and I would never say I can hang and trim a door as well as any carpenter here.
my thoughts exactly
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Sort of in the same vain as what Piffin said.
I'm not disputing that you can do what your saying that you can do, because I havent seen your work so I'm not going to pre-judge it, not even arguing the point that a HO cant/shouldnt be allowed to do the things you mentioned.
If you go back through all my posts (obviously I dont expect you to)you'll see that I never condemn a HO or DIY'er for wanting to do this stuff.
I've never said that we have some secret order and we want to keep the likes of you out of it, quite the contrary, at least for me.
But for you to make as bold a statement that you can do as good as work as the seasoned pro's then yea, I take offence to that. Maybe you think your work is as good but is it really.
I've hung 1000's of doors, maybe built over 100 sets of custom cabinets, I really find it hard to believe that a DIY is going to do the same kind of work that I do. Not saying its not possible or that he/she shouldnt even attempt it but you do make this stuff out to be fairly simple work. Some of it isnt!
I dont know what you do for a living, but for me to simplify it and say that any jamo can do it is an insult to your profession.
I'm all for the DIY'er and have offered a lot of advice over the years to support that, went as far as to show a lot of them how to do it so that they can learn, save some cash that they may not have, and generally feel good about the job they completed.
But I never dismiss ones profession, even the guy fliping the burgers at McD's.
Doug
i would never claim to be able to be your equal in cabinet making, or stan fosters equal in stair fabrication. i am strictly speaking of basic tasks.
measuring, fitting, cutting, and glueing a pvc drain joint isn't difficult. an individual with mechanical apptitude can handle the job easily. if you understand the principles of 120V electrical circuit and have a mechanical apptitude you can easily wire a room.
i may not be as effecient or fast as you in some basic task. i may make errors you knowingly avoid through practice. but i may save hundreds or thousands of dollars by taking the time to get it right.
"measuring, fitting, cutting, and glueing a pvc drain joint isn't difficult. an individual with mechanical apptitude can handle the job easily."Se, that's what I mean. That is first grade.Knowing where to add a cleanout, a trap, a vent stack - that's second grade.Then there is stuff like doing it with a slope to drain while not butchering the framing that even some pros don't get.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
and that is were I as a DIY'er would say...I have the skill set and tools to do the labor but I need to research code and best practices to do it right. I would never run blindly into a task. I sometimes spend equal or more time researching then executing the task.
I am not here to say tradesmen are worthless. I am here to say there are competent home owners who can handle these tasks and execute them with high quality.
My presence in this thread stemmed from the first reply that implied the OP would shortly be in need of professional assistance to repair his failed attempt. That attitude is no better than the HO's throwing stones at contractors in here.
never complain... never explain
your friends don't require it... and the rest won't believe you anyway
I know i'm way out there... I'm not a contractor... I think I'm a builder... I only work for me... my projects, my designs, my risk... my reward...
there is nothing and i mean nothing I won't do (if code allows)...
Before the internet and before i even reached my teens I knew there was a manual for about everything ever made at the public library... now with the internet and forums just like this one you can gather enough information to get a basic grasp of about anything...
This does not mean anyone can do anything... I use to have a firm heart felt feeling that they could.... I now know they can't... I don't know why they can't, but i have had it proven time after time that the average person turns out to be... way below average
I'm inspired by job quotes they are what drive me... they force me to learn something that I already know the reward for...
I....
like you, would rather cuss myself and do something over, than cuss someone else and have to redo their work
like you, If the job takes a so called "professional" 2 days to do.... and i have to spend over a day finding and explaining whats to be done to said professional... by the time they don't show up for whatever reason for just one day... you would have been finished doing it yourself
like you, i take great pride in the things i do... my walls are plumb, square and true... nailers are where they should be and my jobsite is clean.... I don't need a "professional" to come in and hack up my work...it's just like know'n you don't bring your beer and cigs to the health club...
I know this is fact.... any money you don't spend.... is money you don't have to earn
how much does it really cost you to pay someone 5k to do some plumbing?
if you are working make'n 100k a year... is that 2.5 weeks pay? or is it 3.5 weeks pay if you bring home 75%
I can tell you from experience i can build a 3 million dollar project for a million dollars... i could knock 10% off that and build it the exact same way if code didn't require stamped plans, and i could knock another 7-8% off that if i could fund it out of pocket and not have to insure it.... Those are just the facts as i see & know them to be...
This is not to claim that some contractor is make'n 2mil on a 3mil project... what it is say'n is it's very expensive to be in business, and everyone you deal with will and should profit from their work... as it should be...
I'd never slam anyone for try'n to do anything... if you understand the natural order of things you are already 80% there before you lift the first hand... and i believe thats the basic rule... if someone... anyone can look at anything and know what has to be done in what order to have the finished product... thats the one that can do about anything
been do'n so much with so little for so long.... i can now pretty much do anything
with..... nothing
Cheers
p
by the time they don't show up for whatever reason for just one day
...probably out giving free bids to DIY'ers who just want to know how much they're savin!"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
So you are saying it's industry standard practice to be out qoute'n another job they don't have vs do'n the work on the one they have?
nice
P
Pretty much, if you wanna have work when this one's done. "...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Ponytl,
You the MAN!!!!!!
And I tip my hat to you, I have felt this way for years
like you, If the job takes a so called "professional" 2 days to do.... and i have to spend over a day finding and explaining whats to be done to said professional... by the time they don't show up for whatever reason for just one day... you would have been finished doing it yourself
like you, would rather cuss myself and do something over, than cuss someone else and have to redo their work
You put that into words better than any one I have ever talked to!
Bill
Let me add my 2 cents here....
I am retired, I have time, money is a main priority....so keeping that in mind...also designed house ourselves then got friend architect to prepare plans for permits, spent 2-3 years doing building research and every day on this site reading posts.
My wife and I are just finishing our retirement house and barn after 5 years....we did the following...
...dug the trench for the electrical service (200 ft in sand), purchased and ran the cable to the temp post, installed the service panel on the post, dug the footings for the barn(20x50), framed the footings, poured the cement(the driver was very patient and told us not to rush as he would wait on us), got local block layer to lay the 4' wall(we couldn't lay block to save our lives), framed the walls(2x6x14') and lifted into place with a back hoe we got years ago, put up the trusses, roof boards, and shingles, then put up the 2x12" siding boards, installed the main elect. disconnect, the splitter panel, the barn disconnect, the barn panel, the house disconnect, and wired everything up. All was inspected by the elect safety authority and passed first time. Got a pro to install the 12' wide by 13' high sectional door. Got the steel man door from recyling place.
..got a dozer to level the area for the house, hired framers to help with the footings(framing and pouring), worked with framers on house framing up to finished roof(had done research on engineered lumber..good thing as in this area framers had not worked with it before so often they came to me for my research), framers also did the alum. facia, soffits. After that, my wife and I put up the board and batten siding(stained on all sides and screwed on), elect. wired the main panel and the house(again inspected and passed), insulated, finished ceiling with v-grouve pine(20' high), finished drywall, painted, installed doors, all windows(had some large ones so we really struggled), installed ceramic tile(have target saw), installed tubing for radiant heat(in basement and main floor), installed sand over tubing, installed Kempas hardwood floor, designed steel staircase(but had pro build it and helped him install), designed suspended ceiling out of pine, made and installed it. We did have pro install the boiler system and set up the radiant heating system and also had pro drill the well and install the submersible pump and tank in the pump house.
What I am trying to convey here is that ....yes we can do these things by ourselves if we have the time to do the work and the research........BUT....I WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST IF NOT FOR THE KIND FOLKS ON THIS FORUM.
It seemed like every time I need to do something, I could log on and their was some discussion that related to what I needed and I could find the answers and guidance here or at the very least, a pointer to where I could get the answers.
Now, if I could have afforded it, I would have loved to sit back and just watch the pros do what we had to do......but like I said, we are retired with time but with little funds.
So, in summary, I owe a great deal of thanks to those of you who take of your valuable time to participate in this forum.....very much appreciated....I still log on around 6:00am every day to see what is going on and what is of interest to me....will never build again but there are good discussions here and curiosity...well, hope it won't kill me like it did the cat.
Thanks again.
valleyboy: we're at different stages of our lives, but our stories are similar. We had a slow year here at work, which coincided with plans to put a major addition and garage/shop on my house. I spent a lot of hours here filling in the blanks and learning the RIGHT way to do stuff I'd seen done wrong many times before. I learned the merits and disadvantages of techniques I'd never heard of before I started participating in Breaktime, many of which I ended up using on my own house. I successfully undertook parts of the project I'd never have dreamed of doing before finding this place. I'll be forever grateful to the patient, intelligent and skilled folks here who have taught me so much!
My addition is far from perfect. I've still got an Icynene installer to sue, and lots of interior work to do. There are a few things I can see from the street that I may have the energy to re-do later. I learned many single-use skills the wrong way- on my own house! But I wouldn't trade that experience for the world. Even if I HAD the money to pay skilled, trained people to do it all "right", it would have been far less a home to me when I was done. And I'd be poorer for the experience!
But I will never compare myself with an experienced, professional builder or tradesman. I am their equal in NOTHING that I undertake. There is no substitute for experience! It's no different in what I do for a living than it is in any other endeavour.
cheers & congrats
the deal is you cold have paid someone to build you a house.... just not the house you wanted... i often look at things i do that i could hire out, as a way to spend extra for something i didn't think i could have/afford...
by doing what you did... you were able to get what you wanted... no harm...
i hope your kids enjoy the wealth you built them :)
p
Right...
But let's not get confused between a "weekend warrior" and someone, who like yourself is a professional jack of all trades. It's what you do for a living - not just something you tinker at for 6 or 12 hrs a week. Tinker - I always hated that word :-)... How many "weekend warriors" do you know who could handle a 40 yard concrete pour? How many do you know who could not? If I remember correctly, you can - easily....
Some builder's choose to do more or less of the building tasks themselves, or use their direct employees to accomplish the task at hand. I see little relation between this activity and what I consider the accepted definition of 'DIY'.
And as a builder (actually a superintendent) I often times find it just plain faster to do some small task myself and therefore do. On the other hand, let's take painting for example... Let's say I build a house and it takes a paint crew of 6 guys 4 days to do the initial interior painting and 2 days to do the paint final. That is 288 man hours. OK, now let's say I decided to 'DIY' - but I don't do this everyday, so it might take me 1 1/2 or 2x as long... now we are up to possibly man 576 hours. Now let's say my time goes for maybe $30 an hr.... If it did take the 576 hrs, now we have a $17k paint job!!!! Not including materials...
So, there are actually times when it's best to stick to what you are good at (what you do for a living) and hire a "professional" to take care of your "light work"...
A man once told me "not needing to do everything yourself just because you can is a sign of maturity". I subscribe to that.
Now back to the OP's thing about his plumbing work. Here is a little story... The small town (~100k people) I live near had a E.coli in the water system contamination situation this past weekend. All restaurants had to shut down and grocery stores couldn't sell certain items that required water for the process. I think it was fresh produce, meat and deli items (maybe)????. The suspected culprit is illegal plumbing work. The jury is still out as to the cause - (possibly using the word jury in the literal sense here) but illegal plumbing work is the direct suspect. It could have been something as simple as a dish washer not hooked up correctly. Who is to say this was a DIY plumbing job? Don't know.... but I'll bet it wasn't a licensed plumber.
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/477780.html
As far as the OP's $7k estimate, I don't know what the cost of living is in his area, but that could definitely be a consideration... I know wages in New England are 2x what there are here... Or, maybe the plumber bid high knowing he was dealing with a know it all...
Also, concerning these weekend warrior guys who tend to think in terms of "$7000 for 40 hrs of work - that's $175 an hour!!! I must be in the wrong business!" Well not exactly, what about 4 kinds of insurance, travel time, time spent giving 'free' estimates, accounting fees, time to fetch materials, etc, etc, etc. Further, it's hard for them to remember what the true cost of their office job is to their employer. Probably about 1.5 times their gross salary. And well, hummm... I know a number of plumbers but none who own Hummers.... I know a few who have Harleys... Oh yea - they aren't just plumbers - they are small business owners, with all the gray hair to go with it...
The moonlighter DIY guy above who stated that he can do anything just as well as a professional tradesmen is just foolish, and really needs to think about the root word of that underlined adjective... :-) In the mean time, I'm sure I could do whatever his job is with just a few weeks learning time - I mean it's not "rocket science" :-)
BTW - ponytl - this is addressed to you, but really is meant for all to read...
The moonlighter DIY guy above who stated that he can do anything just as well as a professional tradesmen is just foolish, and really needs to think about the root word of that underlined adjective... :-) In the mean time, I'm sure I could do whatever his job is with just a few weeks learning time - I mean it's not "rocket science" :-
I didn't say "anything". i said BASIC TASKS. and feel free to beleive you can become a mechanical engineer in 2 weeks.
This could be great material for a Holiday Inn Express commercial.
you can become a mechanical engineer in 2 weeks
I've met a couple of CE's & Soils Engineering PE's who certainly thought so . . . after all, they were already PE's, how hard could all that ASHRAE & ASTM stuff be, right?
We may get to see, here in Texas, how good being a specific kind of PE is, there's some code compliance issues in a couple subdivisions rumbling up to the State Supreme Court docket (one is an ME who stamped & signed off on the civil work for several subdivisions, which were actually drawn up by the high-school-trained drafter working for a developer 'buddy" . . . )
Your premise is still apt; simple tasks are just that, simple. A person does not need college credit hours in physics to drive a nail with a hammer. Knowing when and where to toenail (and when not to), on the other hand . . .
I've taught a number of people how to work with pvc--it's simple enough. But, I would not let most of those people fish a remodel drain & vent through a wall, though (it's not knowing how to glue, it's the knowing how to use the "wiggle room" in the gluing to get all 57jillion joints that have to be in the space that is).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"We may get to see, here in Texas, how good being a specific kind of PE is, there's some code compliance issues in a couple subdivisions rumbling up to the State Supreme Court docket (one is an ME who stamped & signed off on the civil work for several subdivisions, which were actually drawn up by the high-school-trained drafter working for a developer 'buddy" . . . )"
I get a quarterly newsletter from my state engineering board, and in every issue they report on the latest boneheads who got caught doing this sort of thing. Sometimes they get off with a hefty fine, other times they lose their license. I've been approached a couple times by people who wanted me to do some plan stamping for a little extra cash on the side, and I always ask them why should I risk my livelyhood just so I can do something stupid.
I always ask them why should I risk my livelyhood just so I can do something stupid.
Need more of that, in more professions, I'm thinking . . .
The 'problem' with mis-practice and mal-practice in residential construction is that the potential for problems is sometimes not immediate. Which is the tricky part. Not like a bad brake job at all.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"I didn't say "anything". i said BASIC TASKS. and feel free to beleive you can become a mechanical engineer in 2 weeks."We have a bunch of engineers down here in New Orleans that think they know how to build levees but Katrina proved them all wrong. I can guarantee you that this old contractor can build a better levee than any one of these engineers can and it didn't take me two weeks to learn that. One thing I learned a long time ago was just because a person has an education doesn't mean they are smart.busta :0)
-One thing I learned a long time ago was just because a person has an education doesn't mean they are smart.-
You might want rephrase that to "...doesn't mean they have common sense"
if you aren't smart you by default are dumb and dumb people don't survive curriculum for an engineering degree, a law degree, a medical degree, etc. the fall out rate for a professional degree is close to 75%. but i have seen plenty of smart people without a lick of common sense.
R U aware of what the definition of the word "dumb" is?
It's been a long time since I've heard it used incorrectly - maybe since grade school.
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I think you know what I meant.
mechanical engineer
Why didnt you say that you were an engineer, that explains a lot! :)
Doug
i am not the analytical type...heavy on the "hands on"
My comment was just a joke but I started out college wanting to be an EE.
After visiting the engineering dept. at Rockwell Int. I realized that I couldn't be around engineers!
I always tell my ex BIL(EE @ Rockwell Int.) that I can spot an engineer a mile away and you guys aren't any fun!
That wasn't meant to be offensive, I just didn't see that as a good career path for me.
Doug
After I solve a problem or figure a alternative way to do something, I am always accused of being an engineer. I am not an engineer, I just have more common sense. I almost have women figured out too. If you know its your fault if they are not happy, your headed in the right direction.
I almost have women figured out too. If you know its your fault if they are not happy, your headed in the right direction.
dude you are so right LOL ...
My daddy sat us down one day i was about 12... i have 2 older brothers... he said..
"boys you know what you can do... and what you can't.... no reason for me to explain that.... the one thing you can not do is.... Pizzz your mother off... if your mother gets mad... i have to hear about it like it's my fault what you guys did... I can get in all the trouble i need with your mother all by myself... so if your mother is mad... I'M MAD... and you boys...don't want me mad...."
only rule we ever had... we alway knew what was expected but i guess that drove home that our actions affected more than just us... this past may we gave them a pretty nice party for be'n married for 50yrs...
there is a song... country ... has the line "only way to win is... yes dear i'm sorry i was wrong again" todd snider sings it ... songs from the daily planet if i remember right the only other artist to ever record on Jimmy Buffets label....
then there is the question.... If you and i were talking in the deep wods with no women around.... would we still be wrong...?
p
I have read most of the 100+ posts here and here is the summary from my perspective:If you want to do work yourself, figure out why. Is it to have "ownership" in the finished product or to save money? Either way, make sure you can do the task just as good as a pro or make sure you are willing to part with some money when you screw up or slow the schedule with your longer timeframe to do the same thing. If you can do the same task at the same speed as a pro then do it. If you can do the same task at the same speed and the pro costs more than you make, consider a change in your line or work. 3 Quotes tells all and you get what you ultimaetely pay for.I went to engineering school, so I know I am the most dangerous customer for you pros. =)Just my $.02.Ed
You missed one: Like my current flue removal project, you'd never find a tradesman to do it, or if you did he'd charge an arm for contingencies.Some projects require alternating thought and action -- ideal for the DIYer, a money pit with a tradesman.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"you get what you ultimaetely pay for"
I believe this to be a misconception, a popular myth. The related real world corollary, which I believe to be factual is this: You can't expect to get what you DON'T pay for."...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
......bravo emanatruthfully, without engineers, or engineered drawings,....all the trades would be out of a job,.
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"truthfully, without engineers, or engineered drawings,
....all the trades would be out of a job"
Really? If we're talking residential construction I'd disagree.
Which of these two homes would you rather live in?
1. A house built by engineers with drawings but no tradesman.
OR
2. A house built by skilled tradesman without engineers or engineered drawings.
Without hesitation I'm in house #2...Buic
"2. A house built by skilled tradesman without engineers or engineered drawings. Without hesitation I'm in house #2...Buic"Don't forget that you can't use any code books, span tables, fastener tables, etc.No simpson hangers, etc.All of that stuff and much, much more is all engineered.Just that it is pre-engineered and not for a specific job.But you could do it.And again no code books (or the equivalent instructions) for things like sizing the wiring, plumbing, and HVAC systems and trunks.More like a 1850's log cabin without utilities.
Bill - Some of your points don't fly for me.
I know what size header to put in. The worst that would happen is if I was unsure I'd overbuild by going one size up.
An electrician knows the gauge of wire for a 20 amp circuit without an engineer.
A plumber doesn't need the code book to put in a bathroom properly. He knows the waste lines need vents etc.
And a simpson hanger is a piece of material, not an engineer or a drawing.
Sorry but I'd still prefer house #2...Buic
" I know what size header to put in. The worst that would happen is if I was unsure I'd overbuild by going one size up. "HOW do you know what size to use?"An electrician knows the gauge of wire for a 20 amp circuit without an engineer."Where did his information come from, ORGINALLY."A plumber doesn't need the code book to put in a bathroom properly. He knows the waste lines need vents etc."Again where did his information come from, ORIGNALLY."And a simpson hanger is a piece of material, not an engineer or a drawing."So it is OK to just a PIECE OF METAL and use it to support a joist.I have some old tin cans that will make into hangers for YOUR HOUSE.
Where did his information come from, ORGINALLY.
Trial and error!
Sorta, but as soon as they started interputing between different trials that worked and those that did not work and for different sizes they they started engineering.
Come on Bill, all's it takes is a good memory for trial and error to work out!
where are the materials for that header coming from? how about the electrical supplies. no tape measure or pencil either...good luck with you building. atleast the engineers will actually have something to show for their efforts. by eliminating engineers you will set yourself back thousands of years.
it all comes from some place you have probably never been to that has equipment and process's desigined and developed by engineers. you will have to fashion tools from scratch and i mean scratch because every single tool you own was developed and produced by engineers.
get the point everything in our modern world has been touched by an engineer.
I come from a long line of engineers, all the way back to my great grandfather, and sorry to disagree with you, in the grand scheme of civilized history, the profession of engineer is a very recent developement.
I'm not a historian or an engineer, but it is my understanding that the engineering profession did not exist until the second half of the nineteeth century.
Did an EE invent the light bulb? The telegraph? The telephone?
Did an ME invent the steam engine? The internal combustion engine?
Did a chemical engineer discover vulcanization for rubber mfring? gunpowder?
Did a civil engineer build the Roman aquaducts? The pyramids?
I'm not trying to dis engineers, just trying to illustrate that in the long history of human civilization, engineering, as a profession, has only been around for a blink of the eye.
BTW-although I dropped the ball for my generation of family engineers, my oldest son picked it right back up again!John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Who's to say a tradesperson (note PC) didn't comeup with some of the ideas for the Simpson hangers, etc.Pete
"Who's to say a tradesperson (note PC) didn't comeup with some of the ideas for the Simpson hangers, etc."Actually one did.He is the whole truth, nothing but the truth.A pair of carpenters where building this house next to one where an engineer lived.The engineer was watching them. The first one had this great idea of making a metal hanger to hold the joist. So he got some aluminum flash and make one. Nails it up and installs the joist. While the carpenter is admiring how well it worked the hanger let go and the joist killed the carpenter.The next day the other carpenter was back at work.He was thing, the first carpenter had a good idea, but just did not know how to make it correctly. So the 2nd one had a one make with 1" thick steel plate.He nailed it up. But before he could even place the joist the weight of the hanger caused the nails to sheer, it fell on him and kill him.The engineer neighbor see all of this and says those guys had a good idea. But they did not knwo a d*mm about engineering. He studies the loads from the joist and figures the stress on the hangers and calculates the correct thickness and type of steel for the hangers. And while he was at it it figured the number and size of fasteners needed.
"The engineer neighbor see all of this and says those guys had a good idea. But they did not knwo a d*mm about engineering. He studies the loads from the joist and figures the stress on the hangers and calculates the correct thickness and type of steel for the hangers. And while he was at it it figured the number and size of fasteners needed."
...and after he figured it out, his wife asked, Honey, why didn't you figure that out before those nice carpenters got killed. He said I'm an engineer, not Mother Teresa. Now let me go patent their idea so I can get some money!"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
IMHO and it's just that "opinion" engineers for the most part get you to a basic min requirement...
I've never had one of my designs or ideas rejected by an engineer.... often I'll hear "but you don't need it that bid or thats overbuilt".... never have i heard "that won't carry that" I usually design around what i have... if i have a 16" I-beam 30ft long lay'n in my yard i might know a 12" one will work... but it's not what i have...
i know full well anything i build will do what it's supposed to do... but then i'm not building tall building or bridges...
without engineers buildings have lasted 1000yrs... we'll have to see how long buildings that are just now 50 years old last with em... don't know a more fair test...than time
p
"without engineers buildings have lasted 1000yrs... we'll have to see how long buildings that are just now 50 years old last with em... don't know a more fair test...than time"Some have and some haven't.But there was still a lot of "engineering" done long ago.Someplace, I think that it was on this forum, there was a link to some of the engineering of the Roman Aquaducts.
These are not the ones that I remember.http://www.newcomen.com/excerpts/pontdugard/index.htmhttp://www.pontdugard.fr/page.php?page=324&langue=GBhttp://www.pontdugard.fr/page.php?rub=325&langue=GB
i love that stuff... i'm not amazed so much as inspired by it... knowing what can be done with little more than labor & materials at hand...
NEED is a great motivator...
p
certainly door #2 Buic..but myself and a few others here don't work residential, that is what I meant to say aside from that , engineers and their drawings are essential..they may be evil and can't be trusted..but they are required and something we have had to learn to live with .....my neighbor is a ME and the guy is incapable of using the words YES or NO as an answer.
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Somebody said:
Whew!!!!! For a minute there I thought you were gonna say he dug his own grave...
Made me think of an off-the-wall though:
How many of you "diehard" (pun intended) DIY people either have or will make your own coffin? :-) BTW - once you start the project you have to finish it on schedule :-)
you are clearly missing the bigger picture. you won't have dimensional lumber, you won't have fasteners, you won't have concrete, you won't have roofing materials, you won't have electrical materials, or plumbing materials, or paint, or siding...this list could go for pages...the point is none of this is produced without an engineer first.
Edited 8/27/2006 9:00 pm ET by mcf
Please go back and re-read my original post. It was in response to specific prior posts from emana and maddog3.
None of what you're saying applies to the narrow premise I laid out.
And you might want to re- think your examples. Tradesman worked with lumber and built homes long before the advent of the engineer.
Screws and nails were here before engineers.
Homes were roofed. Roofs of shake, tile, thatch needed no engineers.
People mixed their own paint.
Carpenters made their own siding, windows, doors, and millwork from raw lumber in the winter, so they'd have the material they'd need in the spring to build with.(with planes and tools they often made themselves)
The Romans had concrete and plumbing.
Experience and knowledge passed from generation to generation has worked for many centuries...Buic
Yep, you guys have it nailed. Engineers are completely unnecessary to do something that's been done a thousand times before, with materials that are tried and true. But they're pretty handy when you want to do something new, which stretches the limits of what we've done before.
Engineers know this: that's why we wrote the codes and standards that we use now as minimum requirements of practice. In fact, too many of us are now hobbled by these codes and standards, using them as an excuse not to do engineering when it IS required!
The best working definition of an engineer I've ever heard is, "A good engineer can do with a dollar what any damned fool can do with ten."
Anybody can make a place stand up by throwing material at it, or by doing it over again until it stops failing, or by merely building the same thing over and over again. And maybe, sometimes, that's the cheaper way to go- if you have the time and the risk tolerance, or customers who make so few demands of you! But an engineer can figure out, with confidence, how to use material efficiently and join it correctly to provide maximum benefit- and to survive situations that the ordinary person isn't perverse enough to imagine.
I too am an engineer. As a group, our stereotype deserves every bit of the criticism it receives. Too many of us have our heads stuck up our own @sses: too many go straight from school into the consulting business, producing paper drawings and specifications and 3-D "castles in the sky", without an adequate grounding in physical reality and how things are actually done. These "stationery engineers" are put in a position where they get little or no feedback about whether the thing they drew actually worked out, or was a nightmare for the poor b@stard who had to build it. I feel sorry for these folks, and for the people who are stuck building what they come up with.
I DIY because I am not now, nor have ever been, that kind of engineer. I started from the other direction: I started from a background of doing rather than one of merely thinking, analyzing and calculating. And I work in a design/build operation, where I directly supervise the fabrication of everything that I design. I have the respect of my tradesmen because I understand in detail exactly what their job entails, though I don't for a second pretend that I can do their jobs approximately as competently and efficiently as they do. I design with them, and my customer's requirements, constantly in mind.
ok...so where are you going to get the hand forged nails today? Do you have a blacksmith in your neighbor hood? Are you going to clear by hand an acre of cedar to get the wood for the roof and siding? Oh wait...you still have to mill those logs. Do you have a 200 year old saw mill in your town that runs off of water and leather belts? Do you think your local code enforcement officer will appreciate an open sewer running off your property? i bet you have the all the ingredients in your yard to mix a perfect batch of 3000psi concrete and transport in 10 miles.
You're right...things were better and easier before engineers. Again...good luck with your house built without engineers. If you have such a distain for engineers you might want to give you tools to someone who appreciates them. I loved to see what you build without any modern building convenience of the last 150 years.
BTW...a housed built without engineers means that you cannot use anything that has been touched by an engineer. in todays world you are starting from scratch...nothing ...nada!
Edited 8/28/2006 9:15 am ET by mcf
Edited 8/28/2006 10:49 am ET by mcf
Mental note to self:Don't post w/ the words Engineer or Architect in it...-EdP.S. I used the term "most dangerous customer" tounge-in-cheek. I was kidding around knowing that my knowledge (or lack thereof) makes a pro's job harder when someone is working on my house...=)
Mental note to self - follow emanas' lead! ...Buic
Mental note to self:
Don't post w/ the words Engineer or Architect in it...
ROAR!
[tossing milkbones in general direction, unable to properly aim from RONTHFLMAO]Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Let me say that my original post, in response to the couple preceding it, has nothing to do with your comments or points.
I have to say I'm surprised by the intensity of your response. There was nothing in my statements that "attacked" engineers.
I actually meant the original comparison in a "friendly" sort of way to the poster it was directed to.
You have obviously taken offense. All I can say is that wasn't the intention...Buic
My point was to illustrate that engineers are an everyday part of what you do no matter if you see them or not, whether they lift up a tool or not, if you like them or not. You could not do what you do today without engineers...and you should be thankful for that. They make your tasks more efficient and allow you to be more profitable if you so choose. There is reason we use "engineered" products today rather then maintain 200+ year old building practices.
If you want to be recognized for your contributions start by recognizing others. A lot of people in here are quick to #### on engineers, architects, lawyers, inspectors, etc. These are all people who directly impact your ability to be successful. And you also impact theirs as well.
Lets all start appreciating others contributions because we all help on another be successful.
Yeah, and you can start appreciating us by mailing us money.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Once again, none of your comments are applicable to the context of the original posts.
You obviously have a need to go on and on about this, even after my last post.
Good luck with that...Buic
This is wait you wrote verbatum
Which of these two homes would you rather live in?
1. A house built by engineers with drawings but no tradesman.
OR
2. A house built by skilled tradesman without engineers or engineered drawings.
without engineers means without engineers. every product you use today is touched by an engineer. if you cannot understand and grasp that i cannot help you.
I don't think there were a whole lot of engineers involved with the build on this house in my hometown but I certainly wouldn't mind living in it. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Parson_Capen_House.html
I'm pretty sure that house predates the degreed engineering profession.
Last winter I spent the entire winter in a lakefront cabin in NH that was built by my grandfather and some friends back in the 40's. No engineered drawings or plans for that place either but I'd move in in a heartbeat.
They built a retaing wall in front of the place railroad ties and a horse drawn plow. That wall has stood up better than almost any other wall on the lake, even the engineered ones.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 8/28/2006 4:22 pm ET by TomW
Edited 8/28/2006 4:24 pm ET by TomW
and how well of a job do you think you would do building that house today using the assets they had back then? then when you are finshed would you rather live in the house you just completed using 1700's technology and techniques or the one finish with all the modern conveinences? no running water, electricity, central HVAC, appliances, etc. tough choice.
I could build it just fine using the same tooling they used. Spent the winter with no heat or running water and cooked many a meal on the wood stove. Honestly, I wouldn't mind living that way all that much. It was actually quite a refreshing change.
I'm not knocking engineers but the world could go on without them. I'm building a house right across the street from the cabin I stayed in and thanks to the engineers I have to build to an 80 lb snow load. There isn't a single house near me built to that spec and we haven't lost one yet. We do have to rake the snow off the roof but a little common sense goes a long way. Tom
Douglasville, GA
that is fine. if you are comfortable in those conditions...more power to you. others in here seem to think they can build the same house without engineers.
I think one of you is writing about engineers
and the other about engineering
all generalizations are wrong
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Unfortunately, this discussion has gotten a little heated...it shouldn't turn into an us vs. them thing. The fact of the matter is, us engineers and the tradespeople have to work together for our mutual benefit.
I'm an EE, but the same thing applies to other kinds of engineers as well - I may know more about the technical aspects of a particular design, but the electricians who install what I design know more about what's going to work in the real world. There's give and take; when they get hold of my drawings and specifications, they'll probably find some things that can be changed or modified to make the job easier to do or less expensive, and (hopefully) I'll remember those things on the next job. Conversely, sometimes they'll call me up with a question about something they can't figure out, and I can answer their question or make a recommendation that will solve their problem.
I was just out on a construction site today to do an inspection. The electricians gave me a little cr@p like they usually do, but it didn't mean anything...we get along pretty well.
real cute Stuart....I clicked on cr@p .......and the next thing , my email opens and so I can a message to ....cr@pfor some stupid reason, that cracked me up.
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so what did you tell cr@p to do? Stick it up his@zz?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
awright...that's twice, suck me right in !
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Just wait 'till he replies!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I wonder if heis@work.
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"real cute Stuart....I clicked on cr@p .......and the next thing , my email opens and so I can a message to ....cr@p
for some stupid reason, that cracked me up"
I was just trying to be polite...us engineers just can't get a break around this place. :-)
doesn't seem like it today huh?.
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>>"every product you use today is touched by an engineer. if you cannot understand and grasp that i cannot help you."<<Just because every product -is- touched by an engineer, that does not mean that every product -had- to be touched by an engineer. Nor that it would be non-extant, useless or dangerous without the touch of an engineer.Engineers are not indispensible just because they exist and/or "touch" everything around us. Your claim is like saying we would not have trees or grass if it weren't for the color green.For instance, nails... You told him to go back to cut nails. With all due respect... BS.Before cut nails there were forged nails. Before that, wooden pins. Before that, I dunno. Nails are not what they are because of engineers. Nails would not still be cut nails if we didn't have engineers. Nor would we be clueless as to the best uses of nails.Just because engineers will specify certain nails... Just because they have determined "specs" for them... Does not mean that nails would never have become what they are, nor does it mean carpenters would not have already figured out by common sense and common experience just what nails were good for any particular use...In fact, I would suspect/postulate that nails became what they are today, because of the need to be able to manufacture more of them, faster, easier, and with less waste. That would have been the case whether anyone had ever called themself an engineer, and had a hand in the process or not. That's market.Who invented the circular saw ? An engineer ? No. A quaker lady. Would we have the circular saw we have today if it were not for engineers ? I dunno. But I suspect we would have. Would we have simpson hangers today, if we did not have engineers ? I believe we would. Development of products, and the use of those products are driven by need. They do not owe their existance to engineers. Nor would they survive if they were poor products, whether an engineer made that determination or not.We would not be without running water, electricity, appliances, etc... if engineers had never come into existance. It may not be exactly what it is today, but -need- is what brought running water to be. Not the existance of and/or intervention of engineers.Dimensional lumber was already a reality before anyone ever even thought of the name, "engineer". Over the ages, the strength of, the weaknesses of, and the potential uses for any building product would have become known. And that knowledge would have become a part of common building practice. That is exactly what -did- happen before "engineers".Engineers -are- a good thing.But if they suddenly all disappeared, the world would not come to an end. They are not ominipotent. They are not omniscient. They are not indespensible.
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
WRONG...you would have all those ideas and zero execution for a "market". It is clear you do not know much about engineering. take your circular saw for example. Lets look at the list of engineers involved
1. Mechanical
2. Electrical
3. Industrial
4. Manufacturing
5. Materials
6. Software
You might have a few of the things you mentioned but nothing in mass production. Any inventor (engineer) worth his salt would immediately hire a staff of people to document his design and mass produce it...those people are engineers. There is no two ways about. You need to spend a few days in the life of an engineer and understand what it is they actually do.
ROFLMAOYou are still using the same argument. The circular saw would not exist without all those engineers. That is not true. It is also clear you are fond of making unfounded assumptions about people. You do not know anything at all about what I "know" or do not know. Your assumption is patently absurd.1. You are much too easy.2. You are much too full of yourself.3. You take yourself much too seriously.4. The world -would- go on without you or any other engineer.5. I am no more WRONG than you are.6. You'd have to -get- a life before I could spend a few days in it.;o)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
Practical electric motors would not exist without engineers.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Practical electric motors would not exist without engineers.
Yeah, and think of all the trains running down the track with no one in the driver's seat!"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
explain how it would exist today...
explain how all the performance materials and coatings would be present in the saw
explain how the magnesium castings would be made...
explain how the magnesium material would end up in the saw
explain how you would make a high performance blade in your garage
explain how you would wind the armatures to produce the torque that they do
explain how you would process the chemicals and produce the batteries
explain how you would produce the injection molded plastic housings
explain how you would design a trigger that have a failure rate of 1 ppm.
explain how you would produce the low friction baring
explain how you would produce high precision shaft
explain who is doing the heat and mass transfer studies and using that info to influence design so that the motor can run for long periods of time without overheating
or cut the left hand threads for the jamnut
who is doing the load calculations to make sure the blade doesn't shatter at high speed
who is designing and assigning material finishes, coatings, and platings to ensure optimal performance
who is designing the electrical system to make sure it functions properly
who is designing the machines to produce the components of the tool
who is writing the software codes to make all the electrical and mechanical systems of the machine function
who is doing the performance testing to make sure this saw will operate for more than 3 hours
who is creating the software design tools (pro/e, solidworks, catia, etc.)that allow engineers to do a lot of the cutting edge design
who is creating the CAM software that is allowing machinists to write complex CNC programs to produce complex lathe turned or milled parts
who is writing the FEA software, who is writing the fluid flow software
all of these tasks involve engineers and engineering. if this #### was so easy do you think dewalt, bosch, milwaukee, rigid, etc would spend on average 100K plus a year on each engineer to produce saws that you claim can be made lickadee split by any person who feels like it? why don't they hire you and a couple other clowns at a fraction of the cost? why has our economy grown to a point where consolidation and mass production present more efficient, higher performing, less costly saws. if having a neighborhood saw manufacturer without engineer skill was better than the engineers at dewalt etc why are you using a mass produced saw and not john does garage special next door?
give me a break...you couldn't do your job today as efficiently as you do without engineers and engineering. you don't understand the scope of what they do and you don't understand that engineering is more than ideas and bolting a fan motor, a saw blade, and a plate together to make a saw. do you know anything about vibrations and the derivatives and integral calculations along with other variables that allow your saw not to vibrate uncontrolably? do you know anything about the calculations for laminar and turbulent flow and the bernoulli equation and how that makes your pneumatic tools function properly?
Edited 8/29/2006 11:01 am ET by mcf
Wait till you see what they say about architects. I've always found it odd that those who haven't put the time and money into getting an education seem to resent those that do.
You have a point.
I think it's the same old thing we had back in grade school, with those in the rear seats not paying attention to the teacher, preferring to throw spitballs at those in the front seats.
It's now spitball time on the web.
Look out ! I got a lot more spit and paper where that came from !;o)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
In my case I bristle at being referred to as a "college kid" when used as a derogatory form. I came up through the trades apprenticing in carpentry, had my own business and then decided to go back to school in my mid 20's. I worked construction all through school and even after it. I can slip back and forth between a suit & tie and a toolbelt & carharts easily. The more education the better. True there are those who don't have any practical education and can't get by on only theory, but both sides of the coin are necessary IMO.
But you still look like you are in your early to mid twenties, you college kid, you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's because I drink Moxie ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>In my case I bristle at being referred to as a "college kid" when used as a derogatory form.I hear you on that. But, I also bristle in the other direction. I've gotten the "he's a sheetmetal fabricator - he's not got anything interesting to say" attitude. I went to college first (3 years of Archy school, wound up with ME and CE degrees - never got a PE license) and then hit the trades. Obviously, I wasn't sure about what I wanted to be. There seems to be two types of both Archys/engineers and craftsmen/tradesmen.The anal retentive engineers/architects that can't believe you're so stupid that you don't worship their intellect as you build their monument to themselves (these guys & gals tend to have little bitty dick's). Then there's the E/A that appreciates the craftsperson's skill and effort to build what he/she has designed and realizes that it's a true collaboration (they tend to have large peckers/small vaginas).Then there's the GED/work release type "craftsman". He hates anybody who might be laughing at him behind his back(he assumes everyone is because he has a little bitty pecker - there are very few women on the jobsite in this catagory, so we'll not mention them). Anybody that can do "fancy thinkin'" is his enemy and he responds with venom. Anybody on the jobsite with a pair of shoes that cost more than his truck might as well have a target on his back.Finally, we have the craftsman that appreciates the well thought out detail drawings provided by the E/A. He realizes how much easier all this prior brain work has made his job. He never brings up the fact that one detail says to do this and the other says to do that. He's smart enough to do the right thing and keep moving. He realizes that he's part of a team working toward the same end -a happy customer (this type guy tends to have a massive trouser snake and knows how to use it as the wives of most engineers/architects can attest - not to mention the wives of the guys on work release). Whose in what cataqgory? Whip 'em out - let's see.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
LOL. I can't add much to that 'cause you hit the nail on the head.I think many architects unfortunately do fall into the 'little bitty dick' category. When I was in school I would get quite frustrated with fellow students who were already honing their 'attitude' and had little interest in learning practical building. But there were also students who were very interested in building, and I'd often hire them during the summers.Once upon a time there was supposedly such a thing as a master builder who knew all. The whole building process has become so specialized, that there are architectural firms that focus on just curtainwall detailing for example, just as there are framers that just layout and plate, sheetrockers that hang but not tape, etc.As far as your own work is concerned, I would think that after one look it would be hard to think you hadn't earned your credentials. Besides, Sphere would beat them up ;0)
I'm trying to jab at both sides, but stay out of the "you're a doodyhead" arguement. I work on projects designed by one particular architect often. His plans are nearly perfect - detailed so there's no question what's intended. He appreciates the effort provided by me and others like me (I see the same subs showing up on different contractor's jobs). I also get hired as a consultant to archy firms on a fairly regular basis. These are the guys that get our best. I've told this story before, but years ago when I was working on a framing crew, the architect showed up with a revised detail after chastising the framing crew for messing up when what he designed didn't work. The old guy I was working for asked the archy "Johnny, you gotta take a sh!t?" "Johnny" said "no, why". Old Arthur (the framer) said "well, it looks like you got something to wipe your asss with". Then he spit tobacco juice on "Johnny's" head from the second floor. Johnny wasn't getting Arthur's (or anybody else's best).We craftsmen/subs wanna work for guys that appreciate us. We wanna appreciate who we're working for. It's an easy relationship to achieve.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
Actually, I do.But you want to believe that the universe will come to an end if someone, anyone out there... doesn't believe engineers are the be-all and end-all to everything that makes life possible.Ut oh... Is that a black hole about to swallow us all ?Waitaminnit... If I was an engineer, I would know the answer to that, wouldn't I ?;o)Ok, I guess I need to apologize here.You are just so full of yourself that it is too much fun poking at you. I couldn't resist. Take a breath dude...=0)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
I don't believe that at all. You just refuse to accept that your life is infinitely better because of engineers. You couldn't do your job like it is done today without engineers. You wouldn't enjoy the luxuries in your life without engineers. Our world and the technology in it wouldn't be where it is today without engineers.
Just like a jack of all trades DIY guy cannot possibly know the in's-n-out's of the trades you cannot possibly know the fine details of what engineers actually do and how they do it.
You can think I am full of myself but the truth is you cannot go toe to toe with me regarding engineering. The scope and impact of engineers on your life is over your head. Sorry but it is patently obvious in your response. Like wise I cannot go toe to toe with you in your trade
Careful there, in your list of engineers, you included "software engineers".
Thems aint no real engineers, them's glorified programmers.
Don't forget sanitation engineers.
Here I sit in front of a little device weighing about 5 pounds, maybe 1 1/8" thick typing on a keyboard carefully designed to fit my hands and not cause any repeated stress injuries with keys built to give instant sensory feedback when sufficiently depressed, staring at a visual display less than an 1/8" thick, 14" across diagonally, with 1,920,000 individual light emitting points, powered in part by the splitting of atoms, driven by a a piece of silicon so pure it could not be analysed 100 years ago that contains millions of electronic components reading information from 80 billion different magnetic zones stored on a disc less than 2" in diameter, 1/16" thick, talking to people who may be on the other side of the earth via a broadband transciever less than a meter in any dimension floating 22 thousand miles away in outer space who can read what I have to say within 3 seconds of my clicking the Post button.
All I really got to say is "Who needs any stinkin' engineers?"
Then, again, I'm reminded of the engineers who thought wrapping a bunch of ribbon cables with aluminum foil and stuffing them in a small box crammed with electronics was a good idea.
I LOVE this place.SamT
To some degree, it is all a study in practical mathematics.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey guys, give it up. You'll never win.This isn't an engineer, this is my ex wife in disguise.She knows everything. She knows what you are thinking. She knows what you are feeling. She knows what you know and don't know. She knows what you have done, and will do. She knows your intentions. Hell, she even knows the same about all your friends.You don't stand a chance.
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
well when your married to an idiot it isn't hard to categorically always be right. she was just pissed she found out there were men in the world with more than a GED.
I take it back. You can't be my ex-wife.She would at least know that I have more than a GED.She would also grudgingly admit that I probably COULD eventually accomplish all the things you have heretofore claimed there was no way that I could do....She might even eventually figure out that her chain was being yanked.You, on the other hand, apparently do not have a clue...You are way too much fun. But it seems to me this is just too easy. I am sorry that I have been unfair to you. I'll admit now, that there would be no God in this universe if it weren't for the existance of engineers, and then I'll go away.Sayonara.;o)=0)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
hah,hah, hah...... your grasp is exceeding your reach...
you are slowly but surely digging one big hole, and one shovel at a time , losing your support baseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
explain how it would exist today...
Well, today, it can't be done without an extensive R&D staff with a multitude of talented engineers (and anybody making a tool product for retail sale without such is not likely to succede).
explain how you would make a high performance blade in your garage
Historically, though, the round saw was an outgrowth of band/blade saws, adapted to the circular motion of water wheels. The smith worked out how to get the steel well enough round and balanced to spin at water wheel speeds. That changed when steam drove the belts. That changed again when somebody applied and electric motor to the task. All tools have antecedants. We call the evolution of tools engineering, but a specific engineer was not necessarily involved at each stage.
explain how you would wind the armatures to produce the torque that they do
Having grown up with erector sets that included a DIY motor or two, I can answer that specifically: Carefully. Given the requirement, the need, today, to wind a motor armature, I'd lash up some numberic code to accomplish the task--but that has as much to do with my lack of patience (read time) more than anything else.
explain how you would process the chemicals and produce the batteries
People have ben meddling with chemicals & electricity for thousands of years. Is your point the distinction between "usefull" and "practical" or versus "impossible"?
explain how you would produce the low friction baring
Probably the same way that the very practical people machining repairs & new work did--by examination, comparison, and experimentation. Roller bearings have been around for quite some time, as have several forms of needle bearings. The clock makers gave us many of the fine alignment 'tools.' The application of fine alignment to 'coarse' work is more of a modern innovation, for which untold numbers of engineers ought to be applauded.
or cut the left hand threads for the jamnut
Well, that's basic wheelwrightery, one always locks a hub against its rotation.
Now, deciding what pitch, what depth, what count of threads, that's different.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
ok smarty...you can do all of that in your garage so to speak. How practical is the water wheel saw mill vs. computer controlled modern technology saw mill. A handy person can craft a water mill...a handy person will NOT build a state of the art saw mill.
My point is you can make a cute circular saw fashioned from remnants in a garage. The problem is you will never approach the efficiency and capability of an engineered tool.
I am interpreting peoples responses in this thread that they could just as easily be enjoying the modern tools they use today without the input of engineers...and that is clearly impossible.
mcf
I hope you dont take this the wrong way but now do you understand why I cant work around engineers!
Lighten up, your letting people get to you, and its easy.
We all need each other, well some we dont need but thats another thread!
I used to always say that I'd love to have lived way back when, but after having a kiddney stone, broken back and all kinds of other shid happen to me I sometimes wish that I lived in the future, figureing that medicine will be even better then!
Same holds true for engineering, we need it to progress, plain and simple. I'm to busy building this crazy shid that you guys come up with to stop and engineer any of it so ya, you have a place just like everybody else, no more or less important then the next guy/gal.
And BTW, wasnt it a Shaker lady who thought up the first circular saw instead of a Quaker, I want the proper people to get their 15 min.
Doug
Sure, I understand. No biggie. I realize we have stereotypical character flaws...but hey. I refrained from digging in on character issues of tradesmen because it wasn't relavent to the discussion and will continue to do so...but they were painfully obvious in many of the responses in this thread.
I was going to post to Luka to correct him, but you got in first.
Yes, it was Sister Tabitha Babbitt that was credited with the first circular saw blade.
She was a member of the United Society of Believers, generally known as the Shakers.
I know this isn't all that big a deal, but I like to give credit where credit is due.
Edited 8/29/2006 10:26 pm ET by Shep
Thanks Shep
I was certain it was the Shakers but I was to lazy to verify!
Doug
I was thinking Shaker, and said Quaker.Seriously. And when I hit that post button, it almost screamed "Shaker, you doodyhead !!" at me.Ok, so I'm a doodyhead.
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
Yer a doodyhead!<G>
I liked your post to mcf. It sounds like he's wound a bit tight, tho.
I am interpreting peoples responses in this thread that they could just as easily be enjoying the modern tools they use today without the input of engineers...and that is clearly impossible
And I don't see that at all, not personally, or, per se, in others on this topic.
The 'problem' is that I don't think the argument can be cast in 100% terms. An engineer without a machinist is certainly still able to desing products, jsut not make them. An Architect without a builder can still design, just not build. The converse is true, too--and that's the rub of it.
Without the skills of a machinist (even if only to program the numeric code for the CNC manufactories), an engineer is limited to only his own machining skills. Similarly, an architect needs the skills of an experienced builder (because we all know what happens with a less-skilled builder <g>).
We each have specialized skills. We also have additional skills beyond that. An engineer needs to be very much "up" on the machining & practice of his trade--but need not be an expert in it--but it sure does help to know what the state of art is.
Building is no different. Even if it is occasionally practiced that way.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Explain how any of this could be done by the engineers without standing on the shoulders of scientists.
Scientists stand on the shoulders of teachers.
How could the knowledge be passed on in systematic formats without the printers?
How about the men who cook the food for the wives that go to work and do their thing, whatever it is, and vice versa.
How about the grandmas and child care people who take care of kids while others make things happen?
How about the doctors and nurses who keep you alive and well, in spite of yourself?
How about the cops who try to keep the guys in jail who would steal everything you own?
I could eventually include everyone in this formula.
It takes all kinds. Nobody gets to be top dog. The race doesn't always go to the swiftest.
I would like to say that the guilds did a pretty good job of educating and controlling the trades so that they could build much of europe and more, most of which is still standing. To be fair, a lot more would be standing if we didn't periodically bomb and burn down a good percentage.
I think engineers are as important as everyone else - except maybe to the Amish who somehow manage to do quite well without gee-whiz technology.
everyone is important...the debate started ove BUIC claiming a house built without engineers or engineering prints would be better than with them. he seemed to believe that meant specifically onsite...well that isn't a real scenario. engineers aren't often on site. an engineers job isn't to swing a hammer. an engineers contribution often occurs behind a desk, in a lab, on a production floor. his claim, within his definition isn't even a real scenario. my claim is that he is out of his GD mind if he thinks life goes on honkey dorey without engineers and engineering...not to say engineers are the end all be all of civilization but they are a direct part of everything on our planet that isn't natural.
he couldn't do his job as it is today without engineers...it doesn't matter what someone did 300 years ago.
the debate started ove BUIC claiming a house built without engineers or engineering prints would be better than with them
No, that isn't what started the debate. This is.
Which of these two homes would you rather live in?
1. A house built by engineers with drawings but no tradesman.
OR
2. A house built by skilled tradesman without engineers or engineered drawings.
The way that question is worded I would pick #2 as well. I know of plenty of homes built under condition 2 that are perfectly livable. I don't know of any that fit criteria #1 but I do know plenty of engineers that couldn't build a dog house. The often tradesmen have experience that is passed through generations. guidelines that have been forged by years of trial and error.
The question in no way limited the materials or tooling either group could use to do the job, at least in my literal interpretation. each has the same materials and tools available but one is going to wing it and the other has a set of engineered plans and drawings but no practical field experience.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 8/29/2006 4:52 pm ET by TomW
2. A house built by skilled tradesman without engineers or engineered drawings.
Read that carefully...WITHOUT ENGINEERS OR ENGINEERED DRAWINGS. Many in here have a gross misunderstanding of engineers role in the building process. It is not LIMITED to onsite activity. They are involved in the manufacturing and processing of materials to the design and manufacturing of your tools. You cannot build a modern house without engineers. If you are attempting to eliminate that fact from the aurguement the initial question is not a valid basis from which to debate. The primary job and contribution from engineers doesn't occur onsite. A tradesmen's contribution is significantly weighed to being onsite.
If the premise of the question is can a tradesman build a better house than an engineer it is also a ridiculous question. An engineer isn't trained, and doesn't spend over 2000 hours a year erecting homes. The question is as absurd as
Which of these two planes would you prefer to fly in?
1. A plane designed by tradesman but NO engineer
or
2. A plane designed by educated, trained, and knowledgeable engineers without tradesmen or their tools
It a f'ing stupid question...just like BUIC's. It doesn't account for what they are trained to do. So my point is...look at how engineers contribute to what tradesmen do and then eliminate those areas to answer his question. I know for a fact an engineer has a beter chance at building a home than a lay trademen has at designing an air worthy plane.
You need to relax dude. I think you are reading a whole lot more into the question than what is there. I'd certainly rather be stranded on a desert island with a tradesperson than an engineer. Pretty certain I'd have shelter faster that way.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
and with less argumentation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
egg zactlyTom
Douglasville, GA
me too...but that is an entirely different circumstance and question
I know for a fact an engineer has a beter chance at building a home than a lay trademen has at designing an air worthy plane. .....you haven't met Stan Foster.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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i have seen stan's threads...it is my understanding he builds gyrocopters from kits. it is very interesting and respectable but doesn't constitute design
no...
but he certainly has a very good grasp of the intricacies of how one works and absolutely enjoys sharing is passions with all of us herehe can also design / build some of the most ho-hum, boring , run-of-the-mill spiral staircases I have seen..(sarcasm)..but he is merely self-taught........ and rather humble about it IIRCI have no doubt that your arrogance stems from your youth ...hopefully you learn patience as you get older..perhaps you could enlighten us as to your qualifications, ,perhaps you could thrill us with your greatest idea, perhaps you could help me decide what rotary gear pump to use to pump a catalyst through a process .....maybe tell me why the lipseals continually fail on the ones I have to change every day.... FWIW alignment is not the problemright now they are Orberdorfer Ryton¯ PPS and the catalyst is something called TZ30 by the supplier.... stupid me, I just call it acid.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Edited 8/29/2006 9:54 pm by maddog3
i have viewed stans work...i cannot argue...i am sure there are few people in this world who can match his craftsmanship.
i would be glad to dazzle you with my greatest idea.
i was working for a tier 1 government contractor. i was working as a electro-mechanical packaging engineer. the project was for a interrogator. i was tasked to take a RF amplifier from an F-16 interrogator and fit it into the chassis of a successor IFF interrogator. the challenge of the design was to modify the RF chassis to ensure that the maximum junction temp of a transducer didn't exceed 70 C. The challenge was I needed to dissipate approximately 200 watts of power. The ambient temp conditions were 55 C max. Not an easy task. I also had to deal with a power supply and a vme card cage with 5 boards. All cooled by 1 fan that could not exceed 55 dB. The fan had to pull air at 120 CFM to keep all components functional through a 50% open copper mesh screen due to EMP and NEMP requirements. Without getting in to mush more detail the task was successful and interrogator is being used in allied battleships today.
you can feel free to send me your problem child and all the requisite info to engineer a solution to your issue...but i cannot fix your problem without getting my hands dirty
a challenge indeed, don't want to attack or blow up the good guys .but I think I have found the difference between you and I,
you will always need further information....which to you is vital ...no mistake... to make a decision. !at the same time, I had to figure out why these pumps are suddenly failing at a greater rate then before....mostly because they cost about $1500 a pop and have had nine of them fail in the past three weeks....but primarily because production has stoppedI had to .....guess......while you collect still more datafeel free to take a stab at it.....go ahead, the info is there
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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This idiotic discussion, which seems to have dissolved into name calling, completely misses the fact that by definition someone who designs and builds something is an engineer, whether or not they are what we currently call an engineer, ie, a professional engineer with specialized training and certification.
I learned early on that TRUE engineering is a marriage of ART and SCIENCE; Luka's point seems to revolve more around the fact that there is a stereotypical view of engineers that misses the ART portion. Yes, there are engineers that are "science" great, and "art" poor. But by definition, they are poor engineers, although there are a lot of them about.
Your point seems to focus on the importance of the "science" part. But a true engineer is well rounded, and would rather drink beer than argue this foolishness.
Stop picking nits. It's unbecoming.
>>>>>>>>>>But a true engineer is well rounded, and would rather drink beer than argue this foolishnessRight on -so would a true craftsman.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
Drink enough beer and it will make one VERY well rounded
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well said.
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
I left this thread 60 posts back. It had become pointless to me.
Because of what's been said I feel the need to repost #162 for anyone who might have missed it in the midst of all the vitriol.
"Let me say that my original post, in response to the couple preceding it, has nothing to do with your comments or points.
I have to say I'm surprised by the intensity of your response. There was nothing in my statements that "attacked" engineers.
I actually meant the original comparison in a "friendly" sort of way to the poster it was directed to.
You have obviously taken offense. All I can say is that wasn't the intention...Buic"
If anyone's drinking I'll buy the first round, and the second.
Although I don't think two will be enough! Buic
Edited 8/29/2006 8:14 pm ET by BUIC
"I learned early on that TRUE engineering is a marriage of ART and SCIENCE; Luka's point seems to revolve more around the fact that there is a stereotypical view of engineers that misses the ART portion. Yes, there are engineers that are "science" great, and "art" poor. But by definition, they are poor engineers, although there are a lot of them about."
The thing I remember most from engineering school is what one of my professors told us in class one day.
There are three steps to good engineering:
1. Make it work.
2. Make it simple.
3. Make it pretty.
"Your point seems to focus on the importance of the "science" part. But a true engineer is well rounded, and would rather drink beer than argue this foolishness."
I'll raise a glass to that. ;-)
Your use of "intensifiers" shows that your frustration is getting high - to a level which for me, at my age, would be better avoided.
Engineers apply science. This does not get anything built. Trades, including DIYs, do the building. They can build with or without the engineers and the science. Wasps and spiders can build; birds and beavers and squirrels (long-tailed rats?) can build. Engineers make things "better".
Now the Hyatt-Regency (sp?) comes to mind; the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the American ATC system and its many avoidable aircraft crashes (FAA), the New Orleans levy system, the Florida river-straightening fiasco, -- I could go on. I believe these and other disasters happen because, sometimes, folks think engineers have all the answers.
You know they don't. Nobody has all the answers.
of course they don't know...we afterall are human and to engineer is human...IOW no one is free from mistake. but more is learned in one failure than a thousand repetitive success's. a failure allows us (people) to learn what works and what doesn't. sometimes we control how failure materializes by seeking that point in controlled methods. other times it is tragic and unexpected...the hyatt, the shuttle, tacoma narrows, NO levees, etc.
my excitement in this thread is to go on record in here to correct an attitude from many people in the trades that they can get by without engineers and architects or whoever else...to throw the same attitude back into the mix.
if you met me and worked with you, you would struggle to find the attitudes displayed here by me in my normal interactions. you would be surprised to learn that I have earned my share of income at the end of a hammer, on top of a roof, framing a basement, pulling electrical rough in's, landscaping, you get the point. i am not allergic to hard physical skilled labor. you would learn that i have a very strong instinct to work with my hands.
i wasn't dismissing peoples contributions to a civilized society. just like others were supporting there professions worth, i was doing the same.
Don't let this thread become more important than it is. Much of it is about levity. Everyone here already understands what has been said. Specifically, it has all been said here before. People do get offended; however, it is in an entertainment sort of way like watching wrestling and getting mad.
ok...so where are you going to get the hand forged nails today? Do you have a blacksmith in your neighbor hood?
Don't you have a forge in the barn? Thought most DIY here would have the bare necessities of life <G>
unlike the pros I buy my nails at the hardware store. i am not equipped to manufacturer my own nails...just a DYI HO and engineer
Can't we all just get along?
"Can't we all just get along?"What fun is that?
you won't have dimensional lumber, you won't have fasteners, you won't have concrete, you won't have roofing materials, you won't have electrical materials, or plumbing materials, or paint, or siding
Ah, but, what of true DIY?
Just up the highway from where I sit right now, under 3 miles' crow flight, stands the original homestead around which this community grew. About 1815, Richard Cart Bryan picked spot on a hil about halfway between the Navasota and Brazos rivers. At that spot, he selected six handy stone blocks. These formed the corners, threshold and hearthbase for the cabin he built upon them. The walls were hewn from logs of a diameter that his mules could drag from the swathes of trees folloing the local watersheds. The mules must have come in handy for swaying the purlins in place (the purlins are spaced right about a "natural" fifth, too). The chinking looks to have been oakum & local clay. Mr Bryan presumably brought the one 4-panel door and the single window with him.
There's engineering and then there's Engineering.
Erie canal engineering not even similar to the Panama Canal engineering, yet both are still in use (PC is still amazing, though, the stated design goal was a 1000 year lifespan for the system).
Maybe you might want to restate the case, especially this far along. I want to believe that your contention is that a knowledgable DIY has similar skills to a knowledgable "pro."
I'm not a licensed plumber nor electrician, even though I could pass either JM exam. Doesn't make me better or worse than a licensed plumber ot sparky--just makes me, me. All that really means is that it tends to sharpen what I need a licensed pro to do "for" me on my house, though. 'Course, I've also learned not to jsut expect that a "pro" will walk up and go, "hey, that's pretty sharp, I don't have to do that much," either (and learned a bit more than hard way, too <g> . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
<I went to engineering school, so I know I am the most dangerous customer for you pros. =)>emanaI'm not sure dangerous is the right wordIt's more like...what's the word I'm looking for?oh yeah...annoying<g>
Barry E-Remodeler
"boys you know what you can do... and what you can't.... no reason for me to explain that.... the one thing you can not do is.... Pizzz your mother off... if your mother gets mad... i have to hear about it like it's my fault what you guys did... I can get in all the trouble i need with your mother all by myself... so if your mother is mad... I'M MAD... and you boys...don't want me mad...."
A truism isf there ever was one. Went to the cabin this weekend with the 6 and 8 YO grandsons, let them us machetties, paint the 2nd floor on a scaffold, climb D fir as high as they wanted -- heard them say last night, "let's not tell mom GPa let us use machetties to chop down trees.
Same here. My chosen Callege was all about engineering, but my first summer out of HS I worked in an engineering dept in the aerospace industry as a draftsman. that was all I could take of close regular contact with engineers, as a group
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Also, concerning these weekend warrior guys who tend to think in terms of "$7000 for 40 hrs of work - that's $175 an hour!!! I must be in the wrong business!" Well not exactly, what about 4 kinds of insurance, travel time, time spent giving 'free' estimates, accounting fees, time to fetch materials, etc, etc, etc. Further, it's hard for them to remember what the true cost of their office job is to their employer. Probably about 1.5 times their gross salary. And well, hummm... I know a number of plumbers but none who own Hummers.... I know a few who have Harleys... Oh yea - they aren't just plumbers - they are small business owners, with all the gray hair to go with it...
The moonlighter DIY guy above who stated that he can do anything just as well as a professional tradesmen is just foolish, and really needs to think about the root word of that underlined adjective... :-) In the mean time, I'm sure I could do whatever his job is with just a few weeks learning time - I mean it's not "rocket science" :-)
Matt - you the MAN!!!!!! I tip my hat to you, I have felt this way for years. You put that into words better than any one I have ever talked to!
I get tired of people bashing contractors here because their rates are "expensive" or they're apparently overpaid. One guy said he didn't want to pay a contractor's weekly rate because it was more than his salary. You wonder - does his salary cover hiring his own bookeeper, his own business attorney, buying his own supplies, paying rent on his own office, buying his own advertising (do these guys even have a clue what a small ad in the Yellow Pages costs these days?) - in other words, paying all the overhead costs of doing business? - Oh yeah, not to mention, covering all those times he doesn't get paid for work already completed, downtimes when things are slow (or when he's slow following up on phone leads because he's busy finishing a demanding job), unpaid time spent maintaining and organizing myriads of tools and supplies, etc., etc.
DIY'ers are welcome here, and always have been. Like other posters have mentioned, there's a lot of goodwill and free advice to any poster who respectfully describes their project and seeks insight from the pro's.
I'm a DIY when I do my own landscaping, fix my own car, etc. And I've gotten good advice on both, right here in this forum. Lots of active, intelligent minds come to this board. But who can judge a business'es rates? Do movie actors make too much? Do these complaining people still go see movies featuring actors who make more than they do? Do professional rock musicians make too much? Do these people buy cd's from musicians who make more than they do? Does the CEO of a major auto manufacturer make too much? Do government weapons manufacturers make too much? (I heard of one recently who spent several million on a birthday party for his teenage kid.) I mean come on, the whole economic system is out of whack, and I guarantee its not from tradesmen overcharging. Professional tradesmen or contractors are just a small cog in the gears of commerce.
If you don't like someone's rates, don't hire them. No need to come here and start bashing contractors because someone's bid was higher than you expected. Until you try to stay alive running a contracting business, you have no clue what it takes.
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 8/25/2006 9:37 am by Huck
"not needing to do everything yourself "
Well, some of us are genetically required to do so, can't help ourselves. GGrandpa even dug his own coal mine, built his own saw and gran mill, etc. ..... products good enough they evolved into separate businesses.
As to: "I'm sure I could do whatever his job is with just a few weeks learning time - I mean it's not "rocket science" :-)" The next consulting "fix-it" job that comes up I'll e-mail you and ask for the fix, I'll even give you 2 weeks to study. (last month's "fix it" was figuring out why the X-37 brakes failed (not my design), I think that actually was 'rocket science') <G>
"GGrandpa even dug his own coal mine,"Whew!!!!! For a minute there I thought you were gonna say he dug his own grave...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He did that while everyone else was on break!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Whew!!!!! For a minute there I thought you were gonna say he dug his own grave...
They say overwhelming traits skip a generation. Pity my Grandkids?, I think DW's grandpa DID dig his own grave and build his own and wife's coffin.
"Also, concerning these weekend warrior guys who tend to think in terms of "$7000 for 40 hrs of work - that's $175 an hour!!! I must be in the wrong business!" Well not exactly, what about 4 kinds of insurance, travel time, time spent giving 'free' estimates, accounting fees, time to fetch materials, etc, etc, etc. Further, it's hard for them to remember what the true cost of their office job is to their employer. Probably about 1.5 times their gross salary. And well, hummm... I know a number of plumbers but none who own Hummers.... I know a few who have Harleys... Oh yea - they aren't just plumbers - they are small business owners, with all the gray hair to go with it..."That is true that a lot of salaried or hourly workers don't understand the difference between "retail" and "wholesale" labor.I tried to mention this to ?? (the roofer from Ohio that has not been on for a while,, but I can't remembe his name). He said that a lot of his customers where teachers and office workers and the like. A group that I suspect, that on the average, has very little knowledge of the cost of labor and overhead cost. But the roofer claimed that they did.But it is a fact and it does drive many of of the DIY when they see the prices. And the DIY might need to earn $225 (before taxes) to pay the $175 hr.And the DIY does not ahve the overhead of the insurance or the tools for CI pipe and threaded pipe which won't be used in this case, or the truck, or the ??
Steven Hazlett?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, Steven.
This thread does bring up some interesting thoughts.Now I am a professional DIY, if there is such a thing.Most of my work has been as DIY and then a few things for friends.Now I am doing handyman work. But without the background of years doing this I often start of with the headscratching and research phase.A case in point.I had done some work for a family, painting, drywall patching, and redoing some switches and receptacles.She called me and wanted to know if I would do the bathroom floor. I was very direct and told her that I wanted to do tile work, but had never done any. And would maybe think about it. Was not sure if this was the job that I wanted to start on. Then after talking to her I found out that it was over an old mud base that needed to be removed. Figured that there where too many variables for this to be the first one, so I said NO.Back a couple of weeks later doing more painting and there was a tilesetter looking at the job. I also saw some mosaic border tile samples and again thought that it was not a good match.Back 2 weeks later doing some more work and she asked me agin about doing the tile work. Turns out that the tilesetter got sick and cancelled and then would not return calls. A 2nd one never showed.So I did some research on the old mud base and found out that she was't using the mosacis and it was a simple layout.So next week I am doing my first tile job, pro or DIY.Now I went around and around about how much to charge. Use the online Estimator from HomeTech.Their price for tile work seemed to me to be low. But I an looking at it as a simgle job. While a tilesetter that has multiple jobs going to working alternately because of the waiting time between phases.But they had a very very high prices for pulling and remove the toilet and vanity. So I figured how how much I wanted to make next week and use that figure. Based on the customers reaction I could have asked for 25 to 50% more.
you are 100% correct
and i point out on the front end... i'm a freak... I'm not anal...
I just have great faith in people with common sense (rare to find this vanishing breed)
I'm the worst at doing stupid stuff that just doesn't pay for me to do... the catch is many times i'm not sure how i want something done until... I'm doing it... what looks good on paper and in my minds eye sometimes just doesn't happen...
A man once told me "not needing to do everything yourself just because you can is a sign of maturity". I subscribe to that.
I'm guessing the person who told you that was a wealthy man... I'm not that man... I need to do most things myself because i can afford me and i know the quality of work i do.... and i'm not talk'n "stan foster millwork" quality ... I know i just don't have the time to create a work of art or the time to develope the skill set it would require if i did...
btw... I'm not doing 90% of the following on my loft project.... the plumbing or the electrical work ... i won't hang or finish the drywall... what i will do is be one step ahead of the plumber and sparky... have'n the hard (core drill) holes drilled... blocks where blocks/nailers need to be... I'll have needed materials on site and at hand... I'll have every tool known to god onsite & at hand... fixtures or samples of are on site.... power where power is needed, fans, cold drinks & water, and no trade will trip over another or any mess for that matter and the floors are swept clean all day everyday... and when a question is asked I'll have an answer THEN... i won't hold anyone up if i can help it ....
as i said... I never argue over a price thats quoted to me... i take it or leave it... I believe a man knows what he has to charge and i know if i can afford to pay him... I've told more than a few guys who quoted a price for a job that there is no way they could do the work i requested for the price quoted... I've often paid more than the agreeded upon price because neither of us knew the time something would take or the problems that came up... I refuse to let anyone work for free or lose money working for me (unless they were just stupid in the way they did something and i'm not here to fix stupid)
I don't assume to know the scope of anyones skill set... I like to believe if they found their way to this forum they'd be able to read enough the get the basics down of about any building block type work... thats just based on faith...
peace
p
I agree with most of what you just wrote...
starting with >> I'm guessing the person who told you that was a wealthy man... I'm not that man... << I'm not either, but my time is something I can never recover once spent, so I try to spend more time doing what I like and less of what I have to... for example - Me change oil? heck no! I did that for the first 15 years of adult hood but have grown out of that... Don't get me wrong - I'm still a self professed work-aholic who doesn't have enough time to go to the meetings ;-)
>> as i said... I never argue over a price that's quoted to me... i take it or leave it... I believe a man knows what he has to charge and i know if i can afford to pay him... I've told more than a few guys who quoted a price for a job that there is no way they could do the work i requested for the price quoted... <<
Same here when it comes to subs where a large part of the price is labor. (I guess that is what you meant). I've been on both ends of that... And when I get a subs price that is way low, I know it is too good to be true. If a sub isn't making a decent wage and enough to easily cover his expenses and maybe even a little profit, I can expect to get a $hit job. Simple as that. OTOH, when it comes to a commodity material like lumber or sheetrock you had better believe that I bargain. For example, If I get a price for a framing package from 3 yards, and my favorite yard is high, I tell the salesmen - ya wanna make the sale or not? (in so many words) Then he has to decide if there is enough profit in it to make it worth his while. BTW - I always do my own takeoffs and materials lists - that way the bids are apples to apples. I do have to buy stuff from all 3 yards though... just to keep them in the game.
>> I've often paid more than the agreed upon price because neither of us knew the time something would take or the problems that came up... << What fair is fair and change orders do come up, with one caveat - I never pay the extra unless they ask for it. For example, I just had 8 lots graded. I could see that it was taking way longer than they (their bossman) expected but couldn't see any unforeseen circumstances. He coulda 'opened a discussion' with me - but he didn't. Another time I had a lot cleared - the guy said he removed 7 more loads than he expected. - but he never asked for the $$$.
As far as >> I don't assume to know the scope of anyones skill set... << (I assume you mean here at BT) Well... in that area, you are a little more trusting than I... I know there are some people who don't represent themselves accurately. IE - to speak in an authorative tone about things that one does not have professional field experience with is not adding to the overall value of this forum. Like someone said a number of years back "there are posters, and there are posers"! :-) OTOH, it's OK to comment on things with qualifiers like "I think" or "an idea is" or "on my house" or "my plumber does it this way "or "The way I have seen it done" etc, etc. I know those statements might put some DIY guys here on the defensive especially the "professional" word, but the fact is that, for a crazy example, it might be "better" to frame a house on all 12" centers, but for people who have budget responsible to others, the 12" centers idea would not be a consideration. It's called 'value' - so the belt and suspenders approach is not always "the best". Not that "thinking outside of the box" isn't a valuable part of the information exchange - it just needs to be presented in that light.
Hey - I'm all about DIY, but I just get a good laugh out of these guys who write in and say "what is the best kind of tar paper for a building that won't be sided for 2 or 3 years"... If you don't have the time to do something - then hire someone - if you can't afford that then don't start the project!!!! And't don't whine about how much professionals charge!!!
Same here when it comes to subs where a large part of the price is labor. (I guess that is what you meant). I've been on both ends of that... And when I get a subs price that is way low, I know it is too good to be true. If a sub isn't making a decent wage and enough to easily cover his expenses and maybe even a little profit, I can expect to get a $hit job. Simple as that.
What usually is the case not that they intended to do it cheap.. they just screwed up on their price for whatever reason... Usually guys I know... so I'll ask..
are you sure about your price..? I make em it explain it to me... maybe i figured too high (very rare) maybe they know a better way (i can only hope) or they just figured wrong or left something out... (sometimes happens)
I don't "argue over prices"
but i will ask for discounts ... I'll often ask for cash discounts vs charge or terms... I'll ask for quanity discounts... if i'm close to a truck load... I'll ask for full truckload price... I have lifts onsite and a loading dock sometimes this is worth something...
on labor about the only thing i'll ask is...
"can we cut this any if you can do it on your own time frame as long as we get it done in the next 60 days... i don't care when you do it..." many times guys have guys on their crew that just need more hours for whatever reason and are willing/wanting to work weekends or nites... sometimes they know they have 1 or 2 day dead spots and need to keep guys working...
sometimes these things are win win deals as they should be.... I think i also get deals sometimes because they know on the front end.... I pay my bills...
Hey - I'm all about DIY, but I just get a good laugh out of these guys who write in and say "what is the best kind of tar paper for a building that won't be sided for 2 or 3 years"...
man i never laugh at that... i picture a guy work'n his butt off with no credit and wanting a home... just not knowing how he's going to do it... but knows some way some how over a 5 year time frame spending every extra dime he has he just might do it... We have all seen the frames of houses sit there for years sometimes never finished sometimes you seen progress .... when I see progress I frick'n beem... just at the thought of someone do'n what they have to do to get what they want... when i see the unfinished framing give way to weather & time.... i feel a sadness... the questions... time? money? health? job? whatever.... it's a broken dream....
so i say... use 30lb felt double lapped or if you can get seconds of roll roofing would be better... use alot of nailing caps... and dream on...
I never have had the chance but if i ever saw someone that i thought was "that guy" out work'n alone and i could make the time and had my tools, I'd like to think I'd stop and pound nails for a few house to help...
p
so i say... use 30lb felt double lapped or if you can get seconds of roll roofing would be better... use alot of nailing caps... and dream on...
LOL: DW refers to that as "insul brick"! Roll roofing was made to look like bricks in the 40's, maybe even into the 50's. She hates that stuff, probably 'cause I suggested it once and one of my Aunts lived in a similarily sided house for 30 years.
Like I've said before, I like your way of thinking. All the power to you bro! You da' man.
taa daa.....here we are > 100 posts......
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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After reading about your second shock story!
#1 it's a wonder your alive and
#2 You prefix your bill with that story and you can charge any $s you want.
Scares me and all I did was read it.
you would think I would have decided to change careers huh?more guts than brains .........hahahahaSLC , I went through some training at a post somewhere between there and Provo years ago, and can still picture the setting sun on Mt. Timpanogas Timponogas.....(sp)?.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Yeah, thats for sure, 9 out of ten rocket scientists couldnt do it to save their hides.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Careful there, I'm willing to bet that you haven't met enough rocket scientists to make that judgement. I'd say the number is closer to 50% - a lot are pretty good with their hands. Rockets can be dangerous to make it you aren't!
I'm with you on that.
I'll bet there are more rocket scientists that can do Mr. Woody's job, than the number of instances Mr. Woody can do theirs.
Some participants on the forum here, seem to believe that as regards the building trades, things are like they were in medieval times, with the secrets of the crafts closely guarded by the guilds.
But today, all the how-to information is out there in books, videos, DVDs, TV shows, schools, a week a year at Habitat, etc. Nothing is a secret.
The differences are many, between the pro builder and the serious DIYer, but the most significant, at least in this discussion, is that the pro needs to be able to do work across a much broader spectrum of project types than the one the DIY guy is focused upon. But that doesn't mean the DIY person cannot focus well . . . often his focus is much, much sharper than the pro's. He's only got that one project to do, and doggone it, he's gonna do it right!
Mr. DIY has no deadline, no profit motive, no employees to watch over and keep from screwing up, and he most often is doing it for the joy of the creative process. He can research, observe, try out and discard methods, all while following down the path.
But, just as there are examples of top notch work completed by DIY's, there are shabby examples, too. Just as there are when examining work done by pro builders. To make blanket statements otherwise is a display of close-mindedness, or of ignorance.
In most construction jobs, the main difference between a pro and a competent and informed DIYer is that the pro can do the job faster, and also knows how accurate he has to be. A DIYer may very well spend extra time doing a job very accurately when accuracy isn't needed (part of the reason the job takes longer), then fail to employ high accuracy in that 5% where it's needed (leading to the need to do some jobs over, have minor fit/finish problems, etc).Also, obviously, a pro can do a job faster because he's done it before, and so doesn't need to stop and think about how to do things as much.Now, of course, an incompetent DIYer is an entirely different matter. He doesn't know what he doesn't know, and thus is apt to make all sorts of mistakes. He's also likely a pig-headed SOB who refuses to ask for advice or study up on the needed techniques.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Edited 8/24/2006 10:33 pm by DanH
I had to replace the spring tensioner pulley on my F350 the other day for the second time... lasted about 2 years one of the few "only can get it from ford" parts i've run into... anyway... I knew i'd done it before... didn't remember how or what was involved... checked the internet (ford diesel forum) the subject had been addressed many times.. very failure prone part... so i at least knew exactly what tools i needed and the order in which i'd need them..
took me... maybe 30 minutes to complete the task... the first 10 were just looking at it and compare'n it to what i read on the net...
next day one of my guys asks how long it took to replace it... told him 30 min... but that next time i could do it in 5-10 min if it happened in the next 90 days... after that chances are it'd take 30....
anyone who knows what they are doing is a joy to watch... little wasted movement..., needed tools & supplies at hand prepped and ready.... anytime you can work without thinking the motions seem effortless.... and it does in fact take much less effort when you are doing something for the 20th time vs the first....
p
for the person doing the work
I had a similar experience rebuilding an engine awhile back.
I had everything taken apart to clean and check. Putting it together again took about 2 weeks - I wasn't in any rush. Then I found that one of the head bolt holes had stripped - replacing the block was MUCH cheaper than fixing it. So I bought another used block, took it apart, reworked it, and put all the new parts in that I took out of the old one. The second time only took me 4 hours including taking the stuff from the other block!
For DIYers like myself, there is alot of time staring off into space... planning, figuring, remembering, wondering, doubting - finally you just say F- it and get started.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
For DIYers like myself, there is alot of time staring off into space... planning, figuring, remembering, wondering, doubting - finally you just say F- it and get started.
and i thought it was just me... i think 10 steps ahead... i design as i go... and i redesign alot... I not only think about me but i think about the people who come behind me... which in turn affects me, because i'm pay'n them and for materials... I also think how future users of space might use it...
btw... i run a tap in every threaded hole as part of block prep .... but i did late one friday afternoon get a block and crank back from the machine shop that went to a motor i had to race on sat.. just me going over a machined block is an hours work before anythink happens... i ran into some clearance issues and it got later and later... i got tired and did the same thing 3x... put the lifters in their bore... put the heads on and the intake... and flipped the motor over on the stand to put the oil pan on... all lifter fell from their bores ... so i had to remove intake put lifters back in bores... reinstall intake... repete... did it 3 x.... was noon the next day before i had the motor & trans in the racecar.. and maybe 3pm before i was loaded up and ready to drive the 100miles to the track... got someone else to drive the transporter while i slept on the way anyway... oh yeah same motor wet sump put the pan on before i'd installed the oil pump & pick-up... was a stupid night all round but i'm still married to the girl who came and fit the rings to the pistons as i was working... you can't buy girls like that
we are pulling wire this week on my loft project and we all know the price of wire... and these are all electric units... electric water heaters, elect heat, elect washerdryer, elect range... most have 150amp panel some 200amp... over 5000ft of 2/0 3/0 350mcm & 400mcm wire... I'd already redesigned where the panels went... then i moved water heaters & ranges... i made the runs shorter and i made the design work better... moving one light from right side to left side at times saved 45ft of 12-2 mc cable... not alot of material cost but enough... and the time pull'n it and drill'n 20 extra holes.... can save a ton...
so all that time we spend looking off into space is often very well spent...
peace
p
Ponytl, you have the energy of a teenager cool story of your racing experience. stinky
Mr. DIY has no deadline, no profit motive, ...... doing it for the joy of the creative process.
That really defines my experience DIY building a drilling rig and drilling a well years ago. Figured afterwards I spent over 400 man hours all-told, could have hired it done for what I can make on some jobs in 20 hours. But then, I would not have that knowledge now either, nor all the neat memories.
I'll bet there are more rocket scientists that can do Mr. Woody's job, than the number of instances Mr. Woody can do theirs.
How much ya wanna bet ? My job would physically murder a rocket scientist, they dont have the body for it. Plus I got style.... =0 LOL =)A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
I'm with you - All generalizations are false ;-)
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Rockets can be dangerous to make it you aren't!
Luckily, rockets aren't made by rocket scientists, they are made by guys working an aerospace assembly line of some sort. <g>
Old naval aviation jaw: Designed by PhD; Bought by MS; Flown by BS; fixed/repaired/maintained by GED . . . built by lowest bidder in a nice, safe, no sea-state at all factory somewhere not here.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
aw come on now, the list above doesn't look like brain surgery. I'll put my money on Reno.
awwwww .come on...
he'll be back for help and he'll get it right to boot...
be a quick study...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I know.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
every now and then ...
I remind myself ...
why I don't do 99% of my own plumbing!
and I even got all the tools out in the van ...
and half the fittings I'll need.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You're right!
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."ponytl
77718.195 in reply to 77718.2
every now and then ...
I remind myself ...
why I don't do 99% of my own plumbing!
and I even got all the tools out in the van ...
and half the fittings I'll need.
You have the wrong half. You have the half I need, and I must have your half.
Of course, we know that this is impossible, because plumbing requires an infinite amount of fittings to get the right one you need (especially on a Sunday night project!) And any engineer knows what infinity divided by two is, right?
:)Pete Duffy, Handyman
U are 100% right!
funny thing is ... seeing as how we both suffer "wrong half syndrome" ... how come I always have the one last part/piece the real plumber don't have on his truck!
I can bail his a$$ out ... just can never seem to save myself.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You get your computer fixed or are you still checking in from the library?
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
still putting my tax dollars to work.
the less I use a computer ... the less important getting a new one becomes!
might have the time this weekend to install a new hard drive on the old PC and see what that does.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah, you are definitely in the wrong business! Get your license, hang out a shingle, advertise $150/hour, undercut the competition and make a killing.
I agree.
Except for the last line for the new upstairs bath, could do everything on the list in one day as DIY. 2 days at most total including the bath. Pretty good return.
A LOT of the $7300 goes to overhead and taxes, DIY pretty much tax free.
BTW, I also dislike plumbing which is why I'v acquired the needed tools to make the job easier.
A DIY really can do that job in 2 days if it is assumed you have (like me) about $100 K of 'tool toys' sitting around, (incl. power pipe threader sitting in the basement), plus all if not most of the parts in various sheds out back <G>.
DIY is the BEST excuse in the world to buy more tools, look at what you can buy with just 1/2 of that 7K, with enough for some goodies for DW left over.
could do everything on the list in one day as DIY. 2 days at most
Maybe. OP does not really tell us "everything" we need to know here. If it's an unfinished basement giving full access to the plumbing, that's one thing. If the kitchen is a gut job showing only bare studs, that would make it easier.
However, one bullet point is "connect gas appliances supplied by owner." That does not suggest nice open walls--which would make the ice machine new rough-in faster, and the sink drain recenter similarly easier.
But, I also 'measured' the scope versus what that would be like on my own house. Dragging in new lines in the 15-18" dirt crawlspace would be slow diy or pro <g>. Deciding to run gas I.P. "down" to the f/p (from 140º attic) or "up" from dinky c/s would also be tough. Oh, and the walls are all sheathed in 1951 #2 sugar pine t&g 1x6--keyhole saws need not apply <g> . . .
So, maybe, just maybe, the plumber "knows" more about this job than we do. Or, he's a shrewd businessman who knows how to run a successful biz. Or, he's a money-grubbing profiteer--all about equally possible.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I wasn't knocking professional plumbers, or any craftsmen; I was just venting because I was surprised at the bid for what looks like just a few days' work. We all charge what the market will bear for our businesses, and as consumers we either pay or we DIY. Construction has been pretty busy here in Reno for the past few years, and contractors willing to do small jobs are in short supply.
I will get a couple more bids on this, and probably end up having someone just do the gas lines, because I don't want to buy a pipe threader and because I'm least comfortable with that part of the job. I probably have all the other tools I will need already. Famous last words, right? I'm sure I will think of something new I just GOTTA have to get this done, though ;-)
My kitchen, laundry, powder room, dining room, and two stairways are all bare studs, subfloor, and joists now. l will have to cut up the subfloor to put in the island drain and loop vent (AAV is not allowed here), because the basement below has a finished ceiling. Cutting access holes in the subfloor was not included in the plumber's bid anyway.
The bathroom rough-ins are above the kitchen -- that's next year's project, but I need to install the rough-in drains now before I close the kitchen ceiling.
It's not a technically difficult job, but I will have to be careful about the building codes in adding connections to the existing drains and vents, especially for the island.
The gas line is actually pretty easy to do for a careful person. You can get just about any length you want off the shelf at your local big box. They can also cut and thread custom lengths for you for a very reasonable price.
Use the yellow teflon tape.
Don't forget to install shutoff valves. Pay for the best.
This kind of work starts at one point in the supply pipe and works toward the new connection, so draw out what you plan to do. Measure each piece, and buy plenty of extra elbows, couplers, and various extra lengths of pipe. You can take back what you don't need.
If your basement ceiling is open, it is a breeze.
Reignite your pilot lights after you turn the gas back on.
Personally I like the yellow teflon in a tube. Hard to wash off your hands, but really easy to apply to the threads.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
You can get a casual use pipe threader (manual) at Harbor F for around 29-39$. HD will cut and thread pipe to your lengths as will most plumbing supply houses.
"...I will get a couple more bids on this, and probably end up having someone just do the gas lines, because I don't want to buy a pipe threader..."If you absolutely can't do the gas pipe with standard lengths and nipples, I've had great success CAREFULLY measuring, then having the plumbing supply shop (even HD) thread the pipe for you. Far safety on gas lines, invest in a gauge and fitting that will allow you to pressure check the line when you're done. See other recent threads (no pun intended) for reliable joint sealing tecniques.Bill
plus all if not most of the parts in various sheds out back
What? Somebody got some sheds?
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
There are "rough in" plumbers and then there are repair plumbers.
The "Repair plumbers" have Big beautiful truck, white uniforms, big yellow page ads and advertise on TV.
The problem with these plumbers are that they are trained in house, only the Boss has a license, none are journeyman, they cannot or don't know how to rough in an island sink, it's common for them to install $1,000 water heater or toilet, $3,000 to $10,000 sewer line repair is common, they will charge $100's for leaking toilets and shower valves, their motto is "hit them once but hard" because they don't need repeat business, they cannot have a conscience cause they will rip off your old Grandma, Mother or Aunt, They will get 10% off to Senior Citizens on 10 times what it is worth. Mike Diamond/George Brazil will teach you how to be one of them.
If it requires a backhoe, more than a yard of cement, welding, or freon, I call somebody with the right tools. I would prefer to hire somebody to do some work in the crawl space, but the last time I tried that, I ended up having to do it over myself anyway.
The main reason I end up DIY is that I prefer my own workmanship.
I would not call your quote the market bid price until I got two more bids.
As a custom builder I have regular subs, but when solicitatiing for a task for which I have no subs or haven't done anything similar in a few years such that I need to hire a new sub I make it a policy to get three bids.
A few years ago I needed a stucco man. I had not done stucco in quite a while. I got three bids. The difference between the high and low bidder was about $6,000.00. I checked the low bidders references with other builders and he won the project. His seeming advantage was that the was working custom homes in the area and had his systems down such that he could move in and get the work done. He did a great job on what became a show home.
I DIY because:
1) I enjoy it (up to a point).
2) I'd spend more time finding workers, waiting for them to call me back, waiting for them to show up, etc, than it takes to do it myself.
3) For small jobs the base service call fee is high enough that it's well worth my time.
4) I'll do a better job.
5) When a call-back is required, I'll come back. And keep doing that until I get it right.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
5) When a call-back is required, I'll come back. And keep doing that until I get it right
that sounds familiar<G>
Whereas when someone else does it I often end up doing significant parts of it over anyway.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
When a call-back is required, I'll come back. And keep doing that until I get it right.
Yeah, until you get fed up with the client and tell him to take a flying leap!
LOL1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Yeah, but him is me, and I just tell me where to stick it.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
It's funny that you would hire out the gas piping, as it is one of the EASIEST jobs to do!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Boom!
I'm a non-pro and I've done a considerable amount of DIY remodeling and repairs. I do it because I like it and I save some money (that I then spend on tools). I hang out here because I learn a lot and I like the people. I know when to call in a pro and I think I know what good work is worth.
I would caution you that there are forums where DIYs are sent packing. So do me a favor and avoid the area of "what a pro is worth" or "what's gouging". I want to keep this a DIY friendly forum.
Hey man I feel for you. I'm a carpenter by trade and do all my own electrical and plumbing and anything else I can. I was quoted $5600 for a 9x14 slab for my kitchen extension (with 3 foot deep footings) I was floored. I did the job myself, digging out the footings by hand, getting rid of all the dirt in a dumpster, formed out with 2x10's, rebar, concrete, and paid a guy to trowel it out smooth for $1600 and a bottle of Absolut. The finisher likes his booze. (no it isnt me) DIY is always the way to go and the best part about it is you dont have to wait around for a phone call, or to schedule the guy showing up. The only time I ever thought I got a good deal, where it wasnt worth doing the job my self was on my roof. 21 square of shingles, a 10/12 pitch and 6 valleys. I had a roofer who did it by himself, hand nailing everything, and carrying the bundles up the ladder for $75 bucks a square. The best $1600 I ever spent.
Good luck and shop around or just do it!
Craig
I just watch a tv show, 'Bad, Bad, bathroom". They remodeled a bathroom for $28,000. That about half of my whole house with land. But they bought a $4000 bath tub. my tub was $185 and I get wet just as good.
When I first started I was cheap as dirt.... Worked 7 days a week 12 hours a day.
Everyone loved me.
Now... not everyone loves me as much, I work much less, take vacations and maybe one day could afford the houses my customers have. If I'm too expensive... I'm not the wrong contractor for the job.... you are the wrong customer.
<br><font color=navy>But they bought a $4000 bath tub. my tub was $185 and I get wet just as good.</font><p>That just made it into my quotes file.<p>=0)
A good heart embiggens even the smallest person.
CV,
Without seeing it there is no way to tell if the price is good or bad. Reasons for the price could run from: He's trying to con you, to, It really is that much work.
Either way, don't let one price be an indictment of a whole trade.
Little Story,
I was bidding a house and asked my wife to drop plans off at a reputable local plumber. He never put together the fact that I had called, but my wife was dropping off and picking up. His price was more than three times the two other bids.
I called him and told him, he was more than three times the cost of the others, and didn't want him to defend that, just wanted him to ahve the chance to look it over and see if he made some kind of mistake.
He heard the Genrator and saws going in the background and asked what I did for a living. He kinnda half heartedly admited that he thought when my wife dropped off the plan that she was some dopey homeowner.
Needless to say, he didn't get the job.
Maybe, it is worth that much. Or maybe he thinks your stupid.
Don't know till you get someone else to look at it.
Well, I'll state the obvious and suggest you get more bids. The trades around here (Western CO) are getting serious money these days for anything outside of new construction. Carpenters get around $50/hr, plumbers and electricians over $100/hr, and I had some estimates for HVAC/mechanical work that were equivalent to over $200/hr.
I think part of the problem for homeowners is high demand, and it has certainly jacked up rates around here. The other factor is inflation and from what I see it's running at least 10% annually in building materials and overhead (fuel, medical/liability insurance, utilities, etc.). When houses are going up brand new for $200+/SF, we aren't likely to see any discounts for remodel or repair work.
I have two more plumbers coming to give bids this week. We'll see if these guys also charge 3x what I was expecting. If so, I'll be doing most of it myself.
I guess I touched a couple of nerves (unintentionally) by venting to the group. I absolutely appreciate the pros who do a good job and who care enough to contribute to this forum. I know which tasks I can do myself (if I have to), and I'll get help where necessary.
Make sure you tell them as soon as they walk in the door that the first bid was $7000 and you consider that 3x what is reasonable, and that you probably intend to do the water and drains yourself anyway. That will save them a lot of time.
don't bail on gas line.if you hard pipe it you will make 10 trips to hardware store,but other than that it's all about pipe dope and a couple pipe wrenches. you might check into flexiable gas line.i see it used in new homes here,just like running romex. when you get all done buy a 10.00 pressure gauge that reads from 0-10 lbs put 5lbs in it .go eat a big steak on what you save,check gauge,put the gas to it. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Cool. Only one problem. This is read all over the world.
My code calls for 15 pounds for 15 minutes and you have to pull a permit, for which you have to have a liscence, and a gasfitters ticket to get.
Another question, what size of pipe does he need, and what size of pipe wrenches should he use?
here its 5lbs for 20 mins.,3/4 pipe,biggest frekin wrench you can find,so when you crossthread,you can make it happen.permit who pulls a permit for gas? really here homeowner can do his own with insp..if you don't have a gauge a torch will really sniff out leaks-this will work anywhere in the world,even below the equater where everthing is backwards.course they don't have gas or electric down there there, anymore questions.......... larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Its almost impossible for someone on the web to figure what is a good price or a rip without seeing the scene. I.E. I called Sears to fix my lawn tractor, they charge $99.00 to show up, what does that come out on an hourly rate? You need someone local to look at your situation and see what he says. Get more than one estimate. I like DIYers thats why I'm on this forum. Lots of luck.
let the gas company do the piping, its much cheaper