I’ve got an old timberframe barn that I’m converting into an apartment with 2 levels (kitchen/living room downstairs, bedroom upstairs).
One of the bents is in the way, of course.
What’s the best way to do this and still hold the barn together?
I can use posts supporting a beam, which would hold up the 2nd floor/tie exterior walls together, if this helps me. I could also add collar ties at each rafter. Would this do it? Thanks.
Replies
PLEASE.... More information!
Unlikely you could remove a bent without seeriously engineering and spending on the project.
Excellence is its own reward!
Most barns are designed with the minimum amount of timbers.. so I really wouldn't suggest it. On the other hand, give me exact details and I'll give it some reaserch..
Here's what I need..
size of verical timbers, size of horizontal timbers. species of wood. distance involved, floor loading, foundation, highest recorded wind in the area, and the amount of time you'd like this building to remain standing.
First answer is to change the floor plan to live with the existing posts. This is what I recomend -- part of the charm of timber frames is that the structure forces some of the design.
Second answer is to have a look at it by a timber frame design company and have them do the engineering.
Is it even a bent system? Most barns are not. Most barns are a common rafter design. Unlike most trimber frame homes built today ours is based on a barn design.
You might want to check out some of the trimber frame folks on the net -- there are a lot of them. Our supplier was http://www.timberframemag.com/ good folks but there are any number of other good ones too.
deblacksmith
Thanks for the replies..Maybe my terminology is wrong, maybe the walls I have in my barn are not bents. Anyway, here's so more info:
In its former life, this was a bank barn with a central door that led into a center alley in the barn, with bents to the left and right of this wagon alley with haylofts above. The barn is 40wide by 20 deep. The center door I mentioned is in the 40' wall.
All of the frame members except for the rafters are 6x6. The rafters a roughly on 20" centers and are 3x6, pegged at the ridge.
The wall section I want to remove used to support a hay loft, or so I assume. It has been hacked at over the years, posts removed, etc. but I can still see part of the hayloft ladder.
The bent I want to remove has a 6x6 thats pegged into the top plate timber. Below that about 4' theres another timber thats pegged into posts on the outside walls. There are 45's that support the lower beam also. I can assume that there used to be posts under all this, but they are gone(!) The other bent in the barn is built the same way.
Since I need a second floor in the apartment, both these beams will be in the middle of the room, so thats why they've got to go...thanks all.
Let's define terms so we can talk.
In a bent framed timbered barn or other building, everything rests on the bents. Take one out and - well, have you ever built a house of cards and taken one out of the middle of the deck?
A bent is a section of frame already put together which includes upright posts, horizontal beams, rafters, kickers, and spreaders.
Go here
http://www.timberframemag.com/GoshenTimberFrameRaisings.htm
to see a single bent with perpendicular ties attached.
If you talke a single piece out of a bent, it may or may not fail. It is likely that an engineer or seriously expeienced timberframer on site is the only one who can answer your questions.
It seems to me that you are describing a single element of a bent and not the whole bent. it may be possible to re-structure by providing other elements or metal brackets and braces in other locations to do what the piece you want to remove is doing..
Excellence is its own reward!
Well that picture was enlightenin. What I have is definitely not somethng that you could "raise" in the Amish sense... I think I just have some timbers attached to form a hayloft, tbut they also are probably tieing everything together. Still think I need an engineer?
btw thanks for the flat roof helpout, we did go the plywood shim rout.
My advice is to ask a local timber framing firm to have a look at what your proposing to do. The chances of the frame collapsing like a house of cards is a slim. Read Tedd Bensons first book on timber framing and you,ll see what happened to him when he tried to dismantle an old barn for his own workshop.
I,ve worked on many old frames in England and main land Europe but when people try to explain to me a problem, a trip switch inside my head switches off.(A bit like when i stop someone in the street to ask for directions and my mind starts to drift off!)
A picture paints a thousand words.
I used to read this book , at the library. called "the houses of the Massachusettes Bay Colony". I hope that is right. It has some old pictures of some of the houses which have been restored inside and out. Some are gone now.
It has always been my understanding that "the bent" refers to the entire system of framing, not one particular member. Like ballon framing could be considered "The bent", for a particular house. And the bent of a bank Barn is similiar to ... but no quite like. You get the idea. Am I wrong? He was Hell "bent" on construction.
think of a bent as a slice thru the building or if you would as a end wall replicated over and over untill you reach the other end. I'm not trying to be insulting here but I'll try to explain it simpler
Imagine a kids drawing of a house.. he first draws a box and then puts a triangle on top of it.. That's a bent..
. the connection pieces between bents are called the purlins.
Most barn construction needs just about every timber or the thing will come down.. If you remove a loft or a part of the loft you may be able to remove the piece holding that loft up...or you may not! From the sound of the size of the timbers involved the barn wasn't built any too strong.. Without a picture I can't be certain but I doubt you can go removing timbers without a replacement involved..
Finding myself agreeing with you about all this Frenchy.
So, Frenchy, the bent is like those pre-built shed trusses, you get at 84 lumber. But I always thought a purlin was a member of the roof? Strictly,the one that rests on the Queen posts the run perpendicular, the full length of the barn. Over which the rafters were run. I always called the ones below the roof girts. I'm not the one to ask. But I would definitly NOT cut into any structural member on the barn.
It took a while to bring one to fruition. But after each specialist harvested the tree , for their specialty. ( i can't remember if they pinned them green or they waited a year.) They cut them down in February. When the sap was down in the roots. Then the hauled it out of the woods to their shop and hewn and mortised ,milled the exact number of peices for thier part in the razing. one guy made the purlins , another made the rafters. There was one person who made only the summer beam. Another who made the treenails( trunals) Pins. Then they set a date. And they haulled their part to the site. (I wonder if it was called the summer beam, because that is when it was set into the foundation. After the plowing and the planting.)
summer beam
joists
posts
beams
girts
girders
purlins
rafters
queen post
king post
hammer beams
braces
granery posts
sills
ledgers
headers
outlookers
pendants
cuppola
Another good author to look up about old carpentry is SLoane I don't know his first name.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Edited 5/12/2003 10:17:45 PM ET by MuleSkinner
If you'd like to see a real timber frame, go to, "went to see the wacko"
That's my timberframe..
Wow hey Nice House! i can't see the roof top. Are the gables eased back at the peak? Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
No,
I thought long and hard about that but in the end decided that with that steep of a roof (27/12 pitch) it would be far more dramatic to flaunt it..
Your Killin me!Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?