Hi everyone. A friend of mine bought a single story ranch a year or so ago and wants to remove the wall between the kitchen and the living area.
There is an 8′ opening currently with 10-12′ of wall to be removed. What are anyone’s thoughts on the best way to remove the wall while providing ample support for the ceiling/collar ties currently? I started to find out what the max spans for various depth Microllams are, but wasn’t sure if that is even the direction I should be looking. He has no plans to ever build a second story.
Replies
so he wants to remove a portion of the center wall of the house, which is located between the kitchen on one side and the liv room on the other? and the wall already has a cased opening between the two rooms, but you'd like to remove the wall completely so that you don't see any header, and end up with one big room?
Yes that is accurate to the situation.
Trusses?
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
It currently has 2x8 traditional rafter/collar tie construction.Could vertical supports be put in with gusset plates to "manufacture/augment" the existing framing into trusses?
Could vertical supports be put in with gusset plates to "manufacture/augment" the existing framing into trusses?
You're taking out a 12' section of a wall and keeping the ceiling joist and want to put a flush header right? No need to do anything with the rafters.
Get a microlam sized for your opening to carry the ceiling joists and make sure you post down to the foundation on one end and make sure the other end posts down onto the girder into the basement and make sire that girder can handle what your putting on it.
Joe Carola
Sorry if I was not specific. There is an 8' opening, and he wants to open that up and remove another 10-12' of wall. the total span would be roughly 20'. His wife does not want a post mid beam(directly in the center of the room).
Edited 9/30/2008 6:00 pm ET by abates98
Sounds like its a design judgement call. And depends on the look the owner is after. Putting the beam below the ceiling joists opens up the room but there is still a visual division between the spaces. Recessed beam is a lot more work but allows the two spaces to completely merge.
He doesn't really care which it ends up being. If a double 18" LVL is needed, then it would have to be mostly in the ceiling, with some visible. I think ultimately he would rather not see any division, but again if the beam required is great enough that it stuck down, so be it.
If a double 18" LVL is needed, then it would have to be mostly in the ceiling, with some visible.
Sometimes people don't want the bean to stick up into the attic above the existing joists so that they can run decking through the whole attic. This way we cut the beam in flush with the top of the joists and let the rest stick down below.
If you needed an 18" beam, you would be sticking down about 10-1/2".
Joe Carola
That's fine. the existing header is down about 12" now. just need to know what size beam is needed.There are 2x8 collar ties now, but I would be willing to go as high as a 2x10 would allow. If he ever changed his mind about any second floor then he would probably need to update to 2x10 floor joists anyway. He also has no attic access, save for a small (18x32) opening, so storage really isn't an issue.
"If he ever changed his mind about any second floor then he would probably need to update to 2x10 floor joists anyway."Don't worry about a future second floor. If the owner wants to finish off the attic or build a whole second story on the house, this whole beam will have to be redesigned anyways.There's a big difference in supporting the dead load of a ceiling and the live and dead load of living space. A 20' clear span with a second floor living area will require somewhere around 560 PSF (and this may be quite low). You may be able to use a 3-1/2"x18" LVL, but maybe not. So would just forget the second floor altogether.If you do cut the ceiling joists, make sure you use some lumber or steel strapping to keep the exterior walls from spreading. Right now, when a load is applied to the rafters they will push on the exterior walls. The walls cannot go anywhere because of the ceiling joists that connect the front and back wall. When you cut those joists, even with toenails, you will likely not have a connection of sufficient strength to resist the lateral thrust from the rafters.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
How wide is the house? Is the wall dead center or offset some? Is the ceiling plaster or drywall?
hi was away for a day. the house is 26' wide and the wall he wants to remove is dead center, and it is a drywall ceiling.
Edited 10/2/2008 8:59 pm ET by abates98
You could easily take care of that span with a 3-1/2"x11-7/8" LVL or 3-1/8"x12" glulam. On my most recent project, I did what someone earlier mentioned - I put the beam in the attic and tied it to the ceiling joists below with Simpson H8 ties. This did away with the need to strap across the beam/ceiling joist connection.
did you cut a hole in the house to get that into the attic? he may be able to get it in through a gable louver vent if there is one. do those h8 ties get applied to the side of the collar ties? he probably has two 14' 2x8 ties that overlap by a foot in the middle, above the current wall.
We were able to get the beams into the attic when it was opened for an adjacent addition. But you could use an existing gable vent or make a new one, unless this place has a hip roof.
The H8s tied into one side of the sistered ceiling joists in my case. The existing joists were overlapped by about 18" and nailed with about 6-16d commons per pair. This, combined with the 5-16d sinkers that I put in through the H8, made me pretty comfortable that everything would stay in place.
Trusses?
Why would he need trusses to make a 20'' opening in a wall?
Joe Carola
Edited 9/30/2008 5:59 pm ET by Framer
I don't guess he needs trusses, I was asking how the roof was built, the first thing I look at before removing any walls or making a larger opening anywhere.
Trusses along the axis of the opening would make this simple.
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
Your two choices sound like, recessed beam or beam below the ceiling.
Depending on the house, I like the beam below the ceiling as it dilineates spaces while still opening up the house.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
yeah that's why I was looking up Microllam spans. What depth LVL, or PSL, would be needed to span the 20'? It really is only holding up the weight of the ceiling.
There is an 8' opening currently with 10-12' of wall to be removed.
What depth LVL, or PSL, would be needed to span the 20'? It really is only holding up the weight of the ceiling.
Gotcha now. 20' opening. Still don't need to do anything with the rafters. You have to get someone in there to look at it.Joe Carola
Thank you. I do know that you don't need to do anything to the rafters. I was floating the idea, if it would be possible to add vertical supports from the rafters to the collar ties, so as not to need a beam at all.
I was floating the idea, if it would be possible to add vertical supports from the rafters to the collar ties, so as not to need a beam at all.
You would be designing your own truss. Have to get that engineered also. Better off and easier with a mcrolam.
There's also a way to sit the microlam on top of the joists and use simpson straps that wrap the micro and wrap the ceiling joists. This way you don't have to cut the joist out to put a flush microlam.
Joe Carola
Edited 9/30/2008 6:28 pm ET by Framer
You would be designing your own truss. Have to get that engineered also. Better off and easier with a mcrolam.
i'm not sure what the definition of a 'truss' is exactly, or when one is required to have an engineer's stamp, but it seems to me that you could suspend the collar ties from the rafters as long as you stabilized the rafters to prevent inward deflection. this would transfer the load, which is just the weight of the collar ties, sheetrock, insulation, and mice, to the exterior walls. see drawing. if this needs to be 'engineered', it would just be a matter of adding up the weight of the load, dividing it by the number of ties, and determining what would be necessary to use to suspend the weight. i bet you could end up using 8" rips of cdx plywood as members A & B, ring shank nailed to the side of the rafters and the side of the ties. that would seem much easier to me than muscling a 20' microlam into place. you'd have to make a hole in the house to get that thing in there, build temp walls, etc...
Edited 10/1/2008 12:24 pm ET by aleae