Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 13, 2000 09:23am | #8

   *
   I was doing a sub-contract work with another contracter replacing some old windows. we removed the old sliders but not the frame and slid the new windows in sealed them and put flashing around the outside over the old frame and caulked the joints. We got into an argument on the way home weather this is the proper way to do it or not. I stand is that we should have removed the old frame also not just covered it up. My feeling is that just because the the windows are now thermo-pane there will still be air leaking around the windows so any gain is not that significant. also because of air leakage from the house around the old frame condinsation would build up on the flashing and cause rotting of the old frame which would need replacing in the future. So I ask am I wrong in thinking that replacing windows in this way is wrong just to save a few dollars on trim?

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 06, 2000 01:14am | #1

   *It depends ... FWIW, I would've replace the whole thing so I could look at the framing for damage and seal/insulate between frame and studs. Air leakage, if significant, is a much bigger deal than the sash R-value.Why'd you wait until the ride home to bring it up?

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   Guest_ | Jan 06, 2000 06:08am | #2

   *Stubby, actually you are wrong, replacements are meant to be installed in the sash opening of the original double hung(NOT sliders)window.There is no need to do any flashing on the exterior since you have not disturbed any of the original trim or flashing so I'm not sure why you did.The replacement window usually installs up against the exterior trim, which is where you apply a bead of caulk before installing the window. PROPER installation would have included removal of the interior trims and installation of fiberglass insulation in the old weight pocket, thenre-install the trim and stops.Pulling the frame from the building would involve a lot more work and would not gain a whole lot in terms of heat loss prevention IF you follow the method above.Too many contractors do it the way you described without insulating the weight pockets, and THAT,I believe, is wrong,but it doesn't mean you need to pull the frame to do the insulating.

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   Guest_ | Jan 06, 2000 07:07am | #3

   *StubbyIt really depends on the scope of the job, and the age of the house. Ideally you can remove the existing sash and frame and interior trim, and determine where the interior rough framing is, and upgrade the insul etc. with foam.I often work in older houses (anywhere from 50-100+ yrs old). One soon discovers that before the days of 4x8 sheathing panels, rough framing was usually on arbitrary centres, with windows often hung in openings devoid of trimmers and lintels etc. . . just nailed to the exterior rough siding boards through the large (full 5/4 x 4-5") exterior trim. A wholesale interior gut and reframe of the walls would be necessary to install modern windows. If the budget isn't there, the only practical solution is to remove only the sash, and stops, and install replacements into i thatopening.A more modern building can usually be assumed to have some type of specfic framing around a window, so removal and replacement of the entire unit is feasable.-pm

1. 
   peter_johnson | Jan 09, 2000 02:14pm | #4

   *I'm currently working on a window replacement job using Milgard vinyl thermopane units.The first dealer I consulted gave me a four page installation brochure which describes the entire process in very simple terms, from how to measure for the replacements to where to place the hardware. After I measured all the openings I found Milgard's website which gave me information about all the dealers in my area.I called several of them and arranged to fax them my list for them to bid on.I'm very happy with these custom made units, sixteen of various sizes cost me about $2,500. Like most new installs, it takes a few tries to develop an efficient method but these are very straight forward and only require about one hour per unit once you get going.

2. 
   Guest_ | Jan 09, 2000 09:56pm | #5

   *Stubby,

   Well, it really does depend on whether they were replacement windows or windows intended for new installation into old openings. If these were the typical vinyl type replacement windows then the installation was theoretically correct.Also, it really does depend on the amount of money that the job of was done for. Completely removing the old window and doing whatever framing would be necessary to install the new window is definitely labor-intensive and more expensive.One of the hardest things to deal with in this business is learning the correct installation that goes along with the amount of money one receives for the job. Even though every carpenter wants to do the best possible job, the money that he is paid to do a job is always a factor in the type of job that he does. This is by far the hardest aspect of this business to learn.

   Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates

3. 
   Guest_ | Jan 13, 2000 03:30am | #6

   *So, the answer to Stubby's question about air leakage around the old slider (aluminum??) frame is?Sounds like a "can't see it from my house" type of job to me. If I am picturing the installation correctly the replacement window was installed from the inside...bumped up against the old slider frame. The thickness of the new vinyl window (normally a fairly thick main frame) takes up the window sill. Not acceptable to my customers. The old window frame will probably block the weep holes so a driving rain will allow water to collect--not good. We don't know the house construction but the only house where I have NOT removed the original prime window has been the 100 year old houses that often require a historic "look".Regardless of the frame material and its ability to conduct or transfer heat/cold---the glass area is largely the same on all windows. A leaky or uninsulated frame perimeter can result in cold air getting to the inside of an aluminum frame with thermal break (defeating the break). Not so bad with vinyl or wood but..... We used to demonstrate what a 1/64" crack around a 48" X 36" window amounted to if you actually figured the area. It seems that it was equivalent to a 2.5 sq in hole. Most people will do something about a hole that size but a poorly sealed or installed window???? Naaaa...Best thing I can think of here Stubby is that it sounds like it was the other guys job...and reputation. Do your jobs right and avoid this guy in the future Thor

4. 
   Guest_ | Jan 13, 2000 09:21am | #7

   *ThorThe only Aluminum sliders I've ever been involved with, were of the exterior storm & screen type,screwed to the exterior trim and often retrofitted around here in the 60's as a cure for leaky original windows. The other type of older slider I've run into has a wood frame, and four single panes of sliding glass in grooves. . . neither type allow you to slide a replacement in from the inside to butt up i againstthe original frame.Of the type that actually have an integral wood frame, removal of the glass and all stops allows you to insert the new window i intothe old frame, and a careful measurement leaves a small gap to calk and/or cover with 1/4 round. These type of windows are ordered as "flush mount" and do not have a large sill detail, in fact the frame is pretty much equal on all sides. The original sill is left in place.I don't think your weep hole scenario comes into play here.To answer the original question. When leaving the original frame in place (not my favourite thing to do either, but sometimes there is no choice. .. read my post above)the only way to seal the perimeter of the existing frame is to cut back the interior plaster as necessary and seal/caulk/foam as required!! Anything less is just pissin in the wind. . . but you knew that. :}-pm