I need some opinions on replacement windows. I know this topic comes up a lot, but the usual slant is something along the lines of “What are the best windows?” My question is more along the lines of “What are the most adequate windows for the HO on a budget?”
The house has 14 windows, including one large picture window in the living room. Double-hung and tilt-in are important, because basically all of the windows are 8-16 feet off the ground and I’m not much for climbing ladders to clean windows. We aren’t going to live in this house forever, in fact we could sell in the next couple of years. I think new windows would be worthwhile in terms of selling the place quickly, as the original wood windows are starting to deteriorate.
The first quote I got (Champion) was for $6700 including all installation, tax, etc. That may be reasonable or even low, but as someone on a budget who doesn’t know much about windows, it scared the poo out of me.
So, any recommended brands? Before anyone says it, I know that “you get what you pay for”. But I also think that there are probably some reasonably priced window brands that are better than others. What should I expect to be paying for middle-of-the-road replacement windows (assuming no strange custom sizes or anything)?
Thanks for the insight
Bart
Replies
Bart: Are you thinking about installing them yourself? What is the condition of the existing exterior sills and casings? If those are sound, replacement windows are a possibility. If not, the project may be siginificantly more involved.
If you are going to hire someone, you might want to get a quote or two from reputable local contractors rather than a big outfit like Champion with it's big advertising budget and other overhead.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
At about $475 a pop it scared the poo out of me too, wish I could get that much for my jobs. You need welded sash & mainframes, Low E & at least a 10 yr. warrantee. Donat Flammand, Global, MVP & Certainteed, are all good brands the first two are Canadian. Replacements aren't that hard to do; pull interior stops, remove bottom sash, remove parting bead, remove top sash, remove window weights, stuff weight box with insulation, put peice of insulation on sill, place new window in opening, check for square by opening bottom sash a little and even gap between sill and sash by shimming corner of sill that needs to be raised install bottom screws then do top sash same way except shim sides to even gap, install screws, stuff gap between window and box with insulation,install stops, you may have to rip top stop, caulk inside with latex and outside with silicone. Once you have done one the rest are easy.
check out superior windows there a good mid priced window.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
Just today before I logged on I had a conversation that made me realize that I know even less about this than I thought, and you guys are pointing me in the right direction.
I guess the base of my confusion is this whole "replacement windows" thing. I thought that when you replaced a window, you pulled out the existing window down to the house framing and put in a new one. But apparently (I am coming to find out), that isn't the case?
I would be interested in doing this myself, except for two main reasons. First, my windows are almost all on the second floor and I don't care much for ladder work. But someone at work tells me that "replacement" windows can be done from the inside? Is that right? Second, I'm scaring myself with how ignorant I am. But hopefully I can learn enough to overcome that.
So, if it isn't too remedial (I know it is), can you explain the difference between replacement windows and what I was thinking?
Bart
There's a few options. To replace a window, heck, we're going to get into a syntax argument. You can replace the whole thing, like you'd initially envisioned. Doing so correctly does take some time, and in many instances, stripping away the siding around the window so you can adequately flash the unit. That being said, there are replacement kits as well.
Version one is sometimes referred to as a sash pak. You keep your old jambs, trim, etc. You remove the sashes and the parting stop. You install new tracks which have some give to them by snapping them onto clips you nail to the jamb wall. The new sashes snap in to place, and viola, new windows, low mess. About 30 minutes of your day gone. Marvin is one example, and economically, it's somewhere around 50% of a new unit.
Version two is a replacement unit which has it's own jambs. The thing comes to you looking very similar to a complete window. These tend to work well (in my mind) in really old windows where you've got rope and steel weights on the inside of the jambs. Again, you take out the sashes and the stop, then the whole unit slips into place. Caulk (I would recommend poly, like OSI premium) seals the unit in. Also a very quick in and out job. Pella, though low on my list of favorite window manufacturers, is an example of that style.
You might make a trip to a supply house, lumber yard, specialty retailer and just look at the options. Some of the styles work good in some windows, not so well in others. Being able to have someone who knows put eyeballs on your situation and come up with a good answer sounds like what you want. I'd bet most places would be willing to come have a look if you're going to be buying multiples."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Great info, thanks. I have taken a close look at one of my windows this evening just to see what I would be dealing with. The wood sashes run in extruded aluminum tracks with springs. No counterweights here. I'm not entirely sure what holds the extrusions to the wooden jambs (or is that what you call the "jamb wall"?). There don't appear to be any screws or nails, and when I raise the bottom sash all the way up, I can grab the extrusion and pull it away from the jamb. Any ideas there?
Only partially related to replacing these windows but something I think is odd, I don't see any way to remove the sash without pulling out the extrusions at the same time. There is some side-to-side play in the sash, but not nearly enough to clear the channel. Aren't you normally able to take the sashes out without destroying the window?
Although I have to admit that I don't fully understand the difference between the two styles you mentioned, it sounds like the Marvins would do what I need. Let's see if this makes any sense to you. I remove the sashes and the aluminum extrusion, which would require me to remove a piece of molding that is nailed to the jamb wall on the inside. Then I nail clips to the jamb wall where the old extrusion was, snap the tracks onto the clips, snap in the sashes, and reapply the molding. It sounds like that can all be done from inside, no?
Again, thanks a million for the info. My wife and I are expecting our first in January, so we're making a mad dash to get all of these projects done before we're sending all our money to Mr. Pamper.
Bart
From the sound of what I'm picturing here, you have the exact same style of windows that I do in my house. The extrusion will come out. Some of mine have a screw anchoring them in, others were just pinned with tiny nails. The sashes should come out too. Pull the bottom one half way up, grab it top and bottom, and push sideways. With your other two hands, pull the opposide side extrusion away from the sash. The window tips out. Acutally, if you grab it on the left and pull right, with your thumbs you should be able to push the extrusion enough to get the sash out. That metal strip has its own parting stop.
I think the Marvins might be a good pick. And I think you visualise it adequately. Once your extrusions are out, you just nail little retainer clips where they were. Those clips hold the new vinyl extrusions. They have a foam core and flex a little which helps the fit and to keep things insulated. Then the new sashes pretty much drop in. They also have their own parting stop so no, you don't nail anything to them. You're done. But have whoever sells it to you do the measuring. You don't want a bad measurement to be your bust. If they offer installation at a reasonable cost, I'd take them up on it. If you don't know what you're doing, you may putz around with it awhile to make it all line up. Not that it's all that difficult, but someone who knows what they're up to can have it in and out in under a half hour. Worst case scenario they have to put a sash on a bench and plane a little off to make the locks and weatherstripping line up and engage correctly.
But you get to finish them. Have fun. Look for a Marvin retailer and ask about the sash packs. If I recall correctly, I paid about $175 for a pack to fit a window about 28x52."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Your picture looks very similar to what I have. I am going to try your procedure for getting the sash out tonight after work. One question, what do you have to do to disengage the spring?
Thanks--Bart
On these, the spring - you could mean two things. The steel J shaped thing in the bottom of the sash you push sideways and into those little detents in the track, where it stays when you lift the sash up. If you mean the rest of the mechanism, it's attached to the aluminum side tracks, and comes out intact with them.
FWIW, if you're taking a poll, add a tick to the 'not vinyl' column."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Okay, so we've got four votes for not vinyl, and......oh heck, I'll just pick something.
When I said "the spring" I was talking about the counterbalance spring on the sashes. You were telling me how to get the sash out of the frame without having to remove the aluminum side tracks (push to one side, push the track away on the other side....). I assume the spring is attached to the sash somehow? So if you pull out the sash before ripping out the tracks, how do you disconnect it from the spring?
I ask because I will do this replacement a couple of windows at a time, and in the meantime there are a couple of problems I want to fix on the remaining wood sashes. To do that, I need to be able to get the sashes out without tearing everything up.
Bart
a pic of what I have
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Do you live in southeastern mass? I'd be happy to show you how to do one or two. We do replacements all the time. The only brand that you should be thinking about is Harvey windows.
The traditional method to measuring windows is by the glass size. While it's true that united inches are commonly used, you can look in a Marvin Catalog and see model numbers like " WDH 2024"; ( wood double hung 20" x 24" pane size.),
In the old days, a sash maker would only need to know the glass size. The standard stile and rail widths when added to that make your "sash opening". This is the measurement you need to call out when ordering Tilt-Pacs, or any other manufacturers replacement sash kits.
If you have old standard windows in a house built in the last century, you can measure the glass size and be right on the money.
Installing replacement sash kits is cakework most of the time. A smart fella would learn to do it himself. The kicker is knowing how to repair old crappy jambes in preparation for the new sashes. Sometimes, you need to cut the old jambe out, and replace it with a 1x6 frame ripped down to the xtg jambe width.
rg
no, I live in the midwest, and thanks, but I know how to do windows."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Replacements are done from the inside, unless you have rotted casings or sills in that case you are better off replacing the whole unit, and that involves exterior work and according to size maybe setting up staging, there is a difference between replacing windows and replacement windows replacements are simple to do. In your case sashes maybe able to be pulled to one side and removed or remove interior stops which hide your metal sash track and slide sashes to the bottom up about 2" from sill and yank sashes and tracks as a unit they're probably stapled in place a flat bar will take care of those,like I said the first one is a learning experience the rest are a piece of cake the only outside work is caulking just remove both sashes and screen, have Lovey hold your belt or you hold hers,lean out and caulk between new window and casing replace sashes oops screen first and on to the next one.
Bart
Before you become set on the Marvin sash replacements...look at an all vinyl window replacement unit. As earlier mentioned, such replacement unit consists of of a window unit that simply mounts in between your existing wood jambs. The units are usually screwed into place and then caulked. You can easily install this type of unit from the inside rather than out on a ladder. These units consist of thermopane windows, they tilt-in for easy cleaning, come with a window screen, security locks, etc. Most have a minimum 10 yr warranty....others have lifetime warranties.
Owens Corning makes a brand called the "Luminess 4500 Series." This particular unit can be had for under $200 for a unit sized approx 33 X 58 inches. Infact, I have been able to purchase this particular window at a cost of less than $165 per. Another good all vinyl window is the Simonton Window, "Refelections Series 5100 to 5500"
The 5500 is the top of the line and would cost you around $225 per window ( as per size already mentioned) The 5100 series would be around or $175 - $190 per.
These windows work extremely well and, onvce installed, would never require maintenance. The sashes on these types of units operate very smoothly and seal out weather and noise very well; something that( Marvin) sash kits alone don't always live up to.
The effort involved in installing this type of window compared to the sash kit (Marvins) are almost one and the same. The quality you would get from the vinyl type, IMHO would be far superior to the Marvins (sash kits).
For the record, I recently installed 14 windows for a client...I used the Luminess 4500 and charged the client just under $300 per window...which included labor, material, and even the wrapping of the exterior wood trim with aluminum coil stock. This price was a bit on the low side, but there are many window installers who can and will install these things in the $350to $375 range.
If you were to install these yourself, your window cost would easily range in the $175 to $245 category; depending upon type, and brand name. Again, the effort on your part to install is not much more at all compared to a sash kit jamb liner. You can have any window supplier come and measure for your replacements; which is a good reccommendation that was made earlier to you from another post. As for installation...all can be made from the inside.
Please consider the all vinyl window as an option ...you might just be glad you did.
Davo
Our house had replacement sash packs put in a few years prior to our purchasing the house. Unfortunately, they also hid the fact that much of the exterior window framing was rotting (hiding it behind aluminum trim). So, my point is to make sure the entire window is sound if you're just going to replace the sashes. If it's not, consider committing to replacing the entire thing...unless you can manage to sell it to a first time homeowner that overlooks rotting windows ;o)
I'm now growing a collection of perfectly sound sashes that don't have a window frame to go with as I'm replacing the windows completely over time. Ugh.
No problem with rotten framing, as far as I've been able to tell. But you talk about your first time home buyers, we lived here for more than a year before we realized that the previous owners had repainted a couple of rooms....but only as high as they could reach without stretching, and with a slightly different shade of white than what was there before. Minor yes, but I still felt like an idiot for not noticing.
[Stands up] My name is Bart, and I'm a first time home buyer. [sniff]
My prefrence is 100% retro. A little exra and you have something that belongs. 2 guys and one weekend and everthing is copistetic.
Whether you do vynal or some thing else is up to you. Nothing wrong with vynal as long as it reasonable quality or better.
To have help is Life is good kind of thing. I've seen Champion. Not impressed.
Windows that I have used are Milgard, Anderson, Lincoln, Marvin, TRACO, Jen-Weld, Better built. Better Built is going to move to line 2 here shortly.
The ones I try to avoid or won't use are Reliant, Weathershield and Vicking.
Wil not have anyting to do with Pella. HO provided or spected. Put Pellas in a house 3 years ago. Two windows are coming apart and need replacing and this has become a disaster of bibical proportions. Pella sucks.
There are windows here for every budget.
The bang for the buck I think would be TRACO or Milgard in vynal and Anderson and Lincoln in clad.
So by 100% retro, you mean strip the old windows out down to the studs and reinstall new? I'm going to guess that doing that would be outside the budget. Maybe the best way to go, but I think my wallet will insist I settle for something a little short of "best".
Thanks for the recommendations on the brands, I'll check them out.
Bart
Bart... Lincoln folded it's doors and should have spelt Jen-Weld... Jeld-Wen.
Okay, thanks. I'm going to make some phone calls this week.
Bart
I am going to jump in here to ask a few things about casements.
We have tall and narrow windows which we would like to replace with casements. Right now the top is a fixed pane and the bottom a small slider. The jambs and sills are rotted so we are thinking of replacing the whole thing.
A vinyl guy came to have a look and asked if we wanted brick to brick or jamb to jamb. The differences being the cost, brick to brick being 15% more, and the size of the pane which in this case is important because the windows are narrow to start with.
My questions. Even with brick to brick the size of the sash is a little too wide for DW's liking, making the glass area smaller than before. Are there different sash sizes from different vinyl manufacturers? My next question is what about aluminum or vinyl clad wood windows? They have narrower sash but what about durability? The vinyl guy said water would seep under the cladding and eventually rot the wood.
Tom
Tomchark
First off, get more than one estimate.
Ask the bidder how many United Inches your new window will be. United inches is found by taking the width of the window opening, and the height of the window opening, and adding the 2 figures together, ( i.e....a window opening, measuring 28 inches wide from jamb to jamb, plus 55 inches tall from sill to header, = a total of 83 UI.......that same window opening measured from brick to brick instead...eliminating a 1inch thick jamb casing on both sides and the top....would compute to an opening approx 29-1/2 X 56 = 85-1/2 UI)
Just so you know, window prices are based on the UI system. Normally, the low base price starts at anything up to 100UI. In other words, that ficticious window as mentioned above, would cost you the same price from the manufacturer; regardless whether it measured 83 UI or the larger 85-1/2 UI; because both were still under 100 UI
Casements are sometimes graded more stringent. Simonton uses the following UI categories when dictating price increases...1-71 UI....72-81 UI....82-91 UI.....92-101 UI....102-11 UI....112-121UI....122-131UI....132-141UI.....142-151UI.....152-161UI....162-168UI
Whenever your window unit size goes from one category up to the next higher level, there is an automatic price increse.
What I'm getting at is maybe your windows really do raise in price by 15% when re-measured brick to brick....or maybe this is the "premium" this particular bidder is setting aside due to the extra work involved ( it takes more time to install into brick than it does into a wood jamb...no question about it).
Concerning sash widths....yes, there are different widths from different manufacturers. I've seenl vinyl sashes that are 2 inches wide, down to 1-3/8 wide.
As for vinyl or aluminum clad windows eventually rotting.....I do not agree at all with this statement. The term "clad" basically means that one side ( normally the exterior) is wrapped or encased in a protective film (either a one piece aluminum, or a one piece vinyl). And, a clad window does protect the window's integrity very well.
For the window to rot from underneath, it must first be installed IMPROPERLY so as to allow water infiltration. No, there may be a particular brand of clad windows that have somehow been suffering from defects, but the same can be said of some vinyl windows too....generally over all, a clad window is a very good window.
Bottom line...shop around and get 2 -3 bids total and then make a decision. Have all 3 bidders bid on the same brand window or equivalent, and have all bidders give you a price both ways ( jamb to jamb and then brick to brick). You will find there are a lot of different prices floating out there among contractors.
LOL.
Davo
Thank you for answering my questions so well. The vinyl guy claimed he made this own windows so I think I have to go check out some other windows and contractors to educate myself.
Tom
I like the idea of all-vinyl. I checked out the retrofit installation instructions on the Simonton website, and there was nothing there that looked too tough. My only question would be about the sill. The instructions say you have to have a level sill, but mine are sloping to the outside (like I would expect). Do I have to remove the sill completely, or add a tapered shim on top, or what?
I'll tell you what, it's starting to sound like this is something I'll be doing myself. If I can do this for under $200 per ($165 sounds great), I don't see anyway I can lose. The only thing I gain by having a pro do the work would be aluminum-wrapped brickmolds, but I think I could live with that little bit of maintenance.
OK, this is going to piss off some of the traditionalists, but I agree with the post recommending the Simonton 5100 series vinyl replacement windows.
I think that they are of good quality and I feel that they are tailor made for a project like this where budget is a concern, but repairs need to be made.
I would also just stick with the double hungs and not go for the casements as I feel the casements are just too ugly and way more expensive.
Another route you might try is if you have a local window fabricator. There are several companies that manufacture vinyl replacement windows here whose prices are less than the Simonton window. Most also do their own installs for a reasonable price.
For that price your brand should be a good wood window, tilt -in, with extruded no-care metal on the outside. The picture window which usually tend to be custom in nature can be an expensive part of this bid.