I’m a homeowner, ex-frame carpenter, a woodworker, an engineer, and generally handy fellow doing a re-hab of a 90 year old 4-square in the West Suburbs of Chicago (Downers Grove). I’m not really interested in preserving the historic value of the house, per se, but keeping the original style intact is better than not.
I’d like to replace my original double-hung windows with drop-in replacements. I know how to do it, but I can’t find anyplace that will sell me the windows alone. They all want to install them too (e.g. Feldco windows, etc).
Where can I get the windows? They will likely all be custom sizes.
I’m thinking fiberglass or wood-clad vinyl. Any thoughts on that?
Cheers,
Eric
Replies
I have bought a lot of them at Home Depot. I think they are a good value, if you like vinyl windows. Be prepared for mixups, and missing handles on casements, or worse.
Widen your search. I have found that whenever a product is available with installation, it can be found somewhere else as just the product. This is one of the values of the internet.
This was not true just a few years ago. Distributors and installers had a hold on the market that was much stronger than today.
You can get almost anything that anyone else can get; but it might take a bit of research.
http://www.marvin.com/default.aspx?page=Ultimate_Insert_Double_Hung
You won't be sorry.
Jeff
I'll have to second the Marvins.
"May the forces of evil be confused on the way to your house." -George Carlin
http://www.milgard.com is a company whose vinyl windows I've installed in the home of a family member who has lived with them for about ten years. Good, solid product, easy to install. Big company, lifetime warranty to purchaser.
I was fortunate to have many dealers in the local area so I took the measurements and, after first calling and getting confirmation that they'd like to bid on supplying the windows only, I faxed the list to each one of them. It took about three weeks to get the windows from the factory.
Home Depot recently started carrying Sash Packs from Jeld-Wen on the east coast, in addition to the previously mentioned standard replacement windows with frames. Assuming a relatively standard size (though they also have custom), you pop out old sashes and track, install new track, and pop new sashes in. They come either primed or aluminum clad.
Because you use the existing frame of the window, you don't lose any opening size due to the replacement window frame, and they preserve the original look.
I recently ordered all of the windows and a couple of french doors for a new house I am building. I wanted traditional looking 2 over 2 panes that looked like true divided light. The best choices with respect to asthetics seemed to be the Marvins and the Andersens. Ultimately I chose the Andersens because they were $20,000 for the lot instead of $30,000 for the Marvins. I got both the Marvin and Anderson product guides for professionals from my local lumberyard, so I could be sure of getting apples for apples quotes. I asked for quotes from Home Depot, Lowes, and my local lumberyard. The local yards' prices were pretty close and I knew that their service would be better if there were any screw ups. I showed the sales rep my other quotes from the big box stores and said I would much rather do buisness with him. He matched the best price. The Anderson 400 series woodwright double hung windows are very nice!
I have Anderson 400 series windows (circa 1994)in my house. They apparently had a problem with the sealing system and they are now failing. Most of the glass is wavy and distorted like a fun house mirror. Get frost in the center of the interior side. Had one spontaneously shatter. Be aware that if you break a pane, you cannot replace just the glass. You have to replace the whole sash. Lawnmower threw a rock thru one window, and my replacement is still not here after 4 weeks.
I hope by now they have resolved those quality issues! Otherwise I'm screwed.
Andersen - Marvin ... definitely not apples to apples.
Jeff
Hi Eric
Pella... fiberglass frame.... Pella factory distribution in Batavia.
Gorell.. solid vynil... Richards Supply Rt53 north of Rt64
Marvin or Anderson...fiberglass or wood...Woodland Windows Lake str. and Gary
Regards Rich
Marvin
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
OK, guys. I get the message. Marvins, followed by Andersons, check HD too.
I took a look at the Marvin's website and it looks like what I'm after.
So, tomorrow I'll call the local Marvin's distributor see what he says.
I'll be back if they insist on selling the install too.
Thanks,
Eric
Google the manufacturer and buy from their distributor. I've run into this attitude once before and found that the answer lies in telling them that your interested in buying window only, if they won't sell the window alone then they can keep the window because your no longer interested in buying.
Eric, I'd take a look at Loewen windows as well. From the comments on this board I had the impression that they were premium windows, but I figured I might price them out for my project to get an idea of the high end cost. The ended up being about $200 more/window than builder grade wood Jeld-Wens, and about $400-600 less than the Marvin Ultrex windows I looked at! They were aluminum clad solid spruce double hungs, and looked fantastic. The sample window that the salesman brought with him weighed a ton, and was simply a smaller production window with handle screwed to it, so the windows appeared to be very well made.
Z
Remodelers Supply (in Chicago, on Pulaski by Fullerton, call for suburban locations) makes and sells what I think are excellent replacement windows. I have used them for years with excellent results.
Usually a 30% discount to the trade, so get a business card made up.
Good luck.
All,
Thanks! Looks like my problem was largely due to lack of tenacity. I'll get right on this and post some pics when all is done.
Thanks,
Eric
It's probably too late, and you said you weren't interested in preserving the historical value of the home, but there are studies that have shown that well-maintained, weather stripped, double hung single pane window with storm can be more energy efficient than replacements. And they'll last a lot longer (they've lasted 90 years already).
"...a historic wooden window with a high quality storm window added should thermally outperform a new double-glazed metal window which does not have thermal breaks (insulation between the inner and outer frames intended to break the path of heat flow). This occurs because the wood has far better insulating value than the metal, and in addition many historic windows have high ratios of wood to glass, thus reducing the area of highest heat transfer. One measure of heat transfer is the U-value, the number of Btu's per hour transferred through a square foot of material. When comparing thermal performance, the lower the U-value the better the performance. According to ASHRAE 1977 Fundamentals, the U-values for single glazed wooden windows range from 0.88 to 0.99. The addition of a storm window should reduce these figures to a range of 0.44 to 0.49. A non-thermal break, double-glazed metal window has a U-value of about 0.6." - National Park Service Historic Preservation Brief
Repairing and restoring the old wood double hungs isn't difficult. Probaly less time-consuming than replacing them. You'll have the original windows as a bonus, and the house and the next owner will thank you.
"...a historic wooden window with a high quality storm window added
... and those storms look so great!
NOT
Just MHO.Live in the solution, not the problem.
Very true ... but replacement WOOD DH Marvins, low-E argon (not metal replacements as quoted) are going to be at .33 which the originals/storms cannot beat.
Jeff
This is from an article in the Sept. 2007 issue of Old House Journal. They are obviously biased toward keeping old windows, and one can argue about the costs of the new windows, but it's still interesting:
Assumptions for all examples: 3x5 window; gas heat @ $1.09/therm Storm window over single-pane original window Cost for storm = $50 Annual energy savings = 722,218Btu Annual savings per window = $13.20 Simple payback = 4.5 years *nothing sent to the landfill Double pane thermal replacement of single pane window Cost $450.00 Annual Energy savings = 625,922 Btu Annual Savings per window = $11.07 Simple payback = 40.5 years *Original window in the landfill Low E Glass double pane thermal replacement of single pane window Cost = $550.00 Annual Energy Savings = 902,722 Btu Annual Savings per window = $16.10 Simple payback = 34 years *original window in the landfill Low E glass double pane thermal replacement of single-pane window with a storm Cost = $550.00 Annual Energy Savings = 132,407 Btu Annual Savings per window = $2.29 Simple payback = 240 years *original window in landfill
Annual savings x 100 million windows = *priceless* ;o)Jeff
I suspect that those are based on old windows that are in excelant condition.We don't know the condition of these windows..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Right. My point is that it's worthwhile to restore those old windows to excellent condition.
We restored our 120+ year old windows back to excellent condition. Fixed most of the sash, any that were too wasted to fix, we had replacements made by Adams Architectural Millwork in Iowa. They did a great job. We repaired the original WOOD storm sashes with new hangers and hold-open arms. Weatherstripped the storms to the casings with EPDM strip and the DH sashes with spring bronze. Took out every peice of glass and reglazed with DAP 33. Caulked all of the trim inside and out. The windows are TIGHT! I can't really see how any fancy new windows can perform much better. We have one finger up and down with the sash chain and counterweight system. Total cost averaged about $300 a window for replacement sashes where needed, hardware, new chain, paint, materials, and weatherstrips.
Anybody that tells you its fast, though, is lying. It took my wifey and I about 18 months to complete 24 windows. I will NEVER do that again. The end results are very nice and effective, though.Installing new replacement windows at an hour apiece is certainly tempting...
Honestly that is preferable in an older house wherever possible. As you say, a lot of work and not for the faint of heart.
You can't *quite* get to U - .33 though because of the IG Low-E argon glazing, although you can certainly glaze the storm panels with Low-E on the inner side.
Jeff
not for the faint of heart indeed. I question what kind of resale value there is, too, but we're certainly happy they're done!
If you have a 120-year-old house that's still reasonably true to its age (i.e., not remuddled), then the types of buyers you attract will appreciate the old windows. As an old house lover, all other things being equal, I'd buy a house with the original windows before I'd buy one with replacements, and I'd probably pay more for it.
Plus with replacement windows it is hard to tell if they have been installed correctly.The original windows were probably installed correctly. And they belong there.I avoid houses with replacement windows. Too many unknowns.
I hate them metal windows 'cause I can't see thru them anymore. I'm going back to glass!Mesic
"new double-glazed metal window which does not have thermal breaks"Of all of the brands and models that people have mentioned so far, I don't think that onw of them was a metal window.Doubt that you could even find one these days for residential, except for possible someone that makes them for exact historical replacements..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Reference is likely to multi-family, high-rise, etc. where metal windows are common.
Jeff
I'll second the Home Despot vote - I've done three houses with them, and had zero problems. Got it down less than an hour per window.
Forrest
Eric:
Hit up a few of your local lumber yards. I know here in the Philadelphia area (old homes all over the place) most of the lumber yards have a line of replacement windows. There are also lots of window and door companies that are suppliers only.
Stop in and talk to a super on a local construction job and find out where they get their windows. Probably a local supplier.