I would like to replace the existing tile in a shower cabinet. I realize that the drywall behind the wall tiles will be toast when the wall tiles are removed but how about the floor pan? I had a look behind the shower cabinet (accessed by an adjacent closet)and saw that the pan has been constructed with a membrane and concrete such as described in one of the FHB issues. Can I carefully crack and remove the floor tiles from the pan and place new tiles or do I have to replace the whole pan-new membrane, concrete and everything?
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If the base is intact then you MIGHT get lucky and be able to pop off the old tiles. If you damage the membrain then you will be forced to replace it all.
Yes. The tile is placed on a "setting bed" of what is essentially concrete and sand on the floor and probably a man made product on the walls.
The shower floor membrane is about 1" below the setting bed, and removing the tiles will in no way destroy the membrane.
Some tips:
1. First, remove all grout. Use a grout saw or a dremel tool. Don't dig in too far, just about an eight of an inch of so.
2. Second, pop off the tiles with a small pry bar or tack remover. Surprisingly, they will come off nicely.
Now, re-tile.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Thanks, After removing the tiles, should I sand/chip everything flat...etch...just place new grount and set the new tiles? Also, if I don't sand/chip everything flat and just place new grout, then won't I need a drain extension anyways as there will be an extra layer of grout...or is this such a minor thickness that the adjustability in the attachment points for the drain cover will compensate for this. Thanks in advance for the advice.
Regards,
Phil
Not sure I understand your comment, Phil.
If you pop off all the tiles, yes you will have some thinset residue which will be a pain in the hindquarters to set on top of or to try to remove. Try to get as much of that off as you can. Thinset is not very strong and can be scraped removed fairly easily. If this is done, you will not need a drain extension kit. Even if there is a little left on the setting bed, it will not affect how the tile lies on the setting bed, except by making the bumps tranlate on the new tile and make the new tile a little higher than it should be. Try using a thicker knotch trowel, like a 1/4 x 1/4 or 3/8 x 3/8, which will place more fresh thinset on the bed and will take out the bumps better.
Even if the setting bed is rough around the drain, and the tile is slightly above where it should be won't affect the performance, the tile will simply be a little "proud" of the drain. You actually want the drain to be set a little below the level of the tile, about a 1/16". Much more than that and one stubs their tootsies on the drain, and that is never pleasant.
I would, however, try to smooth out the setting bed as much as you can, by grinding away at it to get it smooth and thinset free before you tile, especially around critical areas like the drain. Any divets or dips can be smoothed over with a tile patch like Custom Building Products "QuickFix" or Mapei's "Planipatch." High areas can be addressed by using a tad more thinset as explained above. If this is a deck mud floor, which you say it is, that substance is fairly forgiving and not very hard. Hopefully it is very workable.
Thinset, then wait 24 hours and then grout. Seal your shower with Aquamix 15. Very, very expensive, but the best sealer on the market bar none.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Boris,
Yeah, I realized after I posted my reply to you that I should of used the word "thinset" instead of "grout." I dunno...it's all water-y concrete mix to me!
You deciphered my post anyways...thanks, exactly the info that I needed... a mini course in tiling:)
My next worry is if the drywall backerboard/greenboard on the walls is imbedded in the concrete at the junction between the wall and the floor pan or not. If the installer did it like they show in that FHB article, then it will be imbedded. Although the drywall would start out on the wrong foot by absorbing moisture from the concrete while it cures. If you use drywall or even greenboard, do you normally imbed it or not? I imagine I can ease/cut it out of the concrete...it is, afterall, gypsum and quite soft. I guess that I could slide the new concrete backerboard in the same slot...it should be about the same thickness...but sealing it to the floor pan would be the problem. Any thoughts on how I would go about this? A bead of silicone perhaps or even thinset.
I guess you probably figured out that I like to be well prepared before a job!!! I should probably get out the sledge for the walls and my most delicate pry bar for the floor and find out. Major problem is wife generally not too pleased about idea of having bathroom out of commission while I ponder the next move after an unexpected discovery. Particularly since I don't generally know what I am doing!!
Thanks again for all you advice...
Give my regards to Putin...
Phil
"If you use drywall or even greenboard, do you normally imbed it or not?"
You would not want to use drywall or greenboard for many reasons, including what you mentioned about the gypsum absorbing water while it cures. IMO Drywall/greenboard has no place in a shower stall except maybe the ceiling, and then only if it's going to be painted.
What are your goals with this project? Is the current shower leaking, or are you simply looking for a cosmetic change? If to the best of your knowledge nothing is leaking, I would forego demoing anything and instead tile over the existing tile, using a drain extender like Boris mentioned. If you do this you will need to roughen up the surface of the existing tile first using carbide sandpaper or a masonry rubbing stone. You may also be able to add additional waterproofing via a trowel-on membrane.
If you can see signs of leaking, then the original waterproofing membrane is failing, and a complete demo (including the pan) is in order. No matter which way you go with this, you should make sure that there is adequate waterproofing when you're done, including the walls.
If you are new to tiling, I highly recommend you make two purchases. The first is Michael Byrne's book "Setting Tile", which is an excellent read before doing any work. The second is a copy of the current TCA (Tile Council of America) handbook and associated ANSI spec (available at http://www.tileusa.com). This will give you the technical information to ensure that your installation is done in accordance with industry practice. Both of these items contain a volume of information and really go a long way to making a DIY effort a professional-quality installation.
Good luck!
Andy
Andy,
Yeah, I don't know why they originally used drywall in showers. I guess they had no other choice. This is the third shower/bath that I have demo-ed/will demo and they have all used drywall or greenboard as a backer board. All have been rotten. I replaced the backerboard with concrete backer board in the first two and will do the same in this shower stall. Hard to work with but worth it I think. Had a pro do the re-tiling in the first two but want to give this one a try myself.
My question about imbedding drywall/greenboard into the concrete was more along the line of, " Is this something that a pro tile setter might have done in the past?" "Have you ever run into a situation where you were replacing tile in a shower stall and found that drywall had been imbedded in the concrete pan?"
Replacement of tiles will mostly be for cosmetic reasons but there is a chance that the walls have some leaks. The grout is cracked and it appears that the drywall is starting to puff up near the bottom but above the membrane. Ya gotta understand that I can only see a bit of the wall from the inside of an adjacent closet so it is really not definitive evidence of a leak. For all I know it may have puffed up because it was imbedded in the concrete pan when constructed and has been the same ever since. I will find out soon enough!
Thanks for the references, I will try and track them down.
Regards,
Phil
Drywall?? Drywall?? Drywall??
For God's sake demo that drywall. Tear it out now!
You didn't tell us that you had drywall in that shower. Drywall has no place in a shower. The reason that the walls are puffing out is that some idiot floated a perfectly good floor then ruined the shower by using drywall on the walls.
Water got through the grout got into the drywall and swelled up. It probably wicked up from the floor too. If the drywall is wet, then your framing is also certainly soaked. Rot, mold mildew!
Demo the whole thing. Save the pan, if you can.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
I agree with Boris. Replace with CBU and a good waterproofing membrane. I personally haven't run into this, but I work mainly on older homes in my area. I end up demoing original mortar walls and pans with lead liners that have been in place for 80 years, although likely leaking for 30. Still, I sure hope my installations last for 80 years...
Boris...Andy...Heartfelt thanks. Your info has been invaluable to me.
Phil
As usual, AndyL is right on about the greenboard. Greenboard and Wonderboard are two different things. Greenboard does not belong in showers at all.
Assuming you have Wonderboard, yes, I bury mine in the floor. Since one can not place nails into the Wonderboard between the top of the pan and the floor. Embedding it into the floor deck mud anchors the CBU nicely.
I also agree with Andy questioning you on what you want to accomplish. It sounds to me like you want to demo the whole shower, which might not be necessary.
Andy's point about Michael Byrne's book is also right on. He has a couple nice chapters on shower construction with pictures. Nice $20 investment. The TCA Handbook is also a good investment too. I wouldn't start this project without having both.
Finally, thinset is not a watery concrete product. Actually, it is mixed fairly thick.
You may also want to get direction at http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/
which is a nice tile site for us tilesetters. I post there often, but under another name since my real name was taken here.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Alternatively, you may be able to tile over the existing tile. There is more info about this in the TCA Handbook (www.tileusa.com)
However, if you decide to tile over tile, you will need a drain extension kit.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927