The insurance agent wants fire extinguishers on each floor of a 3 story, 3700 sq foot victorian during a remodel. Not a problem, I actually think it’s a good idea.
Anyone have particular thoughts about how to implement this?
Obviously extinguishers good against A (combustibles), B (flammable liquids) and C (electrical); I assume I can skip the D rated ones (combustible metals—magnesium).
Let’s assume that construction sites (and the homes they become) are rife with materials that offer the chance to become A, B, or C fires (and mostly A or B, I would guess); and only very very rarely D class fires.
So, I need extinguishers good against A, B and C class fires….
But preferences or advice beyond that?
Halotron? (to get an A rating, these have to be larger than 10 lbs—but they’re easy to clean up and kind to electronics)
Foam (good against A and B, but obviously not for C (electrical)—but then, you could spray into a fire thinking it was an A or B….)
Dry Chemical? (bewildering choice of 3 varieties; Sobium Bicarb, B and C; Purple “K” class , also B and C; and mono ammonium phosphate, which is good against A, B and C BUT (and it’s a really big but) achieves its A class rating by being corrosive and therefore melting, seeping and encasing material. Hmmmm. Maybe not in a house)
What do you guys carry around? and why? and when you’ve ever had to use it(them), what then? and what about clean up?
Thanks!
NotaClue
Replies
I can't answer your questions about classes and chemicals, but the right size is the biggest one you can gracefully handle.
Ask at the local fire department. They'll probably slobber all over you just for coming in and expressing an interest.
I didn't see pressurized water extinguishers on your list. Are those old fashioned now?
A ready hose couldn't hurt, either, anytime you have water pressure on site.
nix the water idea 'cause of electrical and chemical fires...
water doesen't mix here...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
True, but most house fires are Class A fires, even the ones started by electricty or accelerated by a flammable liquid. There's a reason all the fire hydrants still supply water and the FD still uses water on most house fires.If you're going to only have one kind of extinguisher, some kind of dry chemical is probably the way to go, but having water on site can't hurt.
no it can't but the FD use pressures that the rest of can't muster for a fire...
still think water would be a last choice..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I just can't see adding water to a paint thinner or Lac thinner fire...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I once did that. It's what we had, not even much pressure. Worked. I think we smothered it rather than cooled it
After that we didn't cut steel where we'd been cleaning it. Was outside.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hey, what a great set of responses!
No, it turns out that pressurized water exstinguishers might still be the cat's meow; safe for people, safe around electrical fires and great for knocking down burning Type A stuff (houses). These characteristics (I was looking around more after I posted last night) make then the extinguisher of choice for use in hospitals and particularly, in operating rooms, which are full of oxygen and people.
The advice to ask at the fire department is a good one; I will do that.
BTW, Halotron (Halon) turns out to be great for electronics and aircraft---but dangerously toxic to people's hearts if used in too small a space---and later, to their livers. I don't want to be thinking about that if I use one in the moment....and certainly, not around kids.Thank for the advice! Helpful as usual; I will get back to everyone after I've asked the fire department...(I'm in San Francisco, which once rather famously burned to the ground--1906---so I bet they think about this quite a bit)
NotAClue
Also Halon is a of the freon family and production has been banded. So what is available is recycled and expensive.I had not heard of the personal damagers. Infact one of the advantages was that it could be set off in in habiited apsaces.
Yeah, look at the material safety data sheet; you have to calculate the smallest cubic feet environment you're going to use either of those (Halon or Halotron) in and then make sure you don't use it in a space smaller than the size extinguisher you've got is cleared for. The compound reaches cardiotoxicity at 2% of area volume---thus, you won't find any in hospitals and particularly in operating rooms, even though they have all those really expensive electronic monitors in there.Just to clarify; pressurized water extinguishers (fine mist) make the droplets small and disconnected so that there's no way for an electrical shock to travel back up the mist cone to the user of the extinguisher.NotaClue
Sorry, probably useful to post the reference on the pressurizes H2O extinguisher...http://www.amerex-fire.com/tar13.htmlModel 272
Target #13
Operating Rooms/ICU’s/CU’sThis is what the Model 272 was truly designed for. Operating rooms, ICU’s and CU’s have a lot of electrical “gear” in them. They are often “oxygen enriched” atmospheres making them a potential fire hazard. Bedding, clothes, gowns and the like can become saturated with oxygen, making them very flammable.You can’t use dry chemical in these situations because of both its respiratory and dust mess problems. You can’t use CO2 because of freezing and oxygen depletion. You can’t use halon 1211 or any of the current “halon substitutes” because of respiratory concerns and cardiac sensitization. Hospitals are even concerned about water because it is not specific in its purity or in the air that may be used to pressurize it.The Model 272, using distilled water and dry nitrogen for pressurizing is the optimum answer. The agent and soft spray application will do little if any harm to the patient. The majority of the hazards involved are Class A in nature and nothing could be more effective on these hazards than a fine water spray. The Model 272 is UL Listed for Class C applications so it will be safe for the operator to use around all of the electrical gear that is present. In fact, the Model 272 is the best extinguisher to use on a person who has caught fire.In operating rooms where lasers, electrical cauterizing tools and high intensity lighting appliances are used along with other electronic gear, the operating room has long had a potential for fire. Several medical trade magazines have written articles about this specific problem. The Model 272 is the only viable answer.and from another part of this rather good website (yes, I know they have an interest in selling the fire extinguisher, but still)http://www.amerex-fire.com/tar06.htmlThe Model 272 was subjected to and passed the same “Class C” --electrical fire---listing test by UL. In fact, using distilled water makes it slightly less conductive than the Model 260/262 Wet Chemical charge.Recently, some people have voiced concern over the “pooling” of water from the Model 272 discharge. They feel this will create an electrical shock hazard that is not represented by the UL electrical conductivity test. We would like you to consider the following: For nearly 50 years, fire hose nozzles have been listed by UL for use on electrical fires, without any known injuries from electrical shock Sprinkler systems have been installed in countless high-rise buildings without benefit of shutting off all electricity to the building during a discharge - again without any known injuries due to electrical shock. NFPA 10 paragraph 3-5 has the following note: “Electrical equipment should be de-energized as soon as possible to prevent re-ignition.” Any piece of electrical equipment that has been involved in a fire has had its safety features compromised (insulation may be burned, ground connections lost, etc.) and therefore may present a hazard regardless of what type of agent is used. In tests conducted by Amerex, using a toaster, an electric fan and an electric motor, we were unable to create an electrical shock hazard in the “pool”. Either the circuit tripped immediately de-energizing the equipment, or there was not sufficient voltage and current in the pool to detect.Amerex is more than confident in the safety of these extinguishers. Based upon the required UL testing and the additional tests that we have performed, the Model 272 is the only water based extinguisher on the market that is safe to use around live electrical equipment.Let us know about your comments and suggestions.NotaClue
Probably as important as the existance of fire extinguishers on each floor is
Training in proper use.
Knowing how to use any extinguisher, and when you can use one is not a "no brainer" as some might think.
Call the local FD and ask them if they will give a on site seminar. Betcha they will.
The extinguisher locations were selected for a good reason.
They are on the way out of the building! Never, ever let a fire get between you and you means escape, and unless trained, do not attempt to fight a fire with equipment or using techniques you know nothing about.
We train people in our building annually, and just as regularly I see people screw up using the same extinguisher they were trained on the year before. We use a controlled fire and dry chemical exthinguishers, in a controlled exterior environment. Of the forty or fifty people we train each year, my guess would be that we only have a first time successfull "put out" rate of 60%. You would tink it would be higher after 5 years of repeated training with the same people, but it is not.
Of course most of them are just office employees, not highly skilled construction workers :) (a little smoke won't send any of us into a mind lossing panic, will it?)
Call that fire house.
They would love to train anyone inerested. Takes about 30 minutes for the group
Dave
Edited 2/8/2005 12:48 pm ET by DAVERICHESON
I agree on the training; I'm going to go looking for some place that will actually do it well.
NotaClue
Nota,
Someone said that not much can go wrong with portables...not always so. If you get good one's with all metal valves, (Aluminum good...Brass is best...more $) you should be fine. Amerex is pretty much top of the line IMO.
I have serviced way more extinguishers than I care to remember, and the plastic valved cheapies you get at most hardware stores (kidde comes to mind) can fail miserably! I have seen them where the siphon tube has fallen off the valve inside the bottle. This would not render the ext. completely useless, but you would have to hold it upside down to get any chemical out! Could you figure that out in an emergency? The cheap plastic ones are a no-no!
Also make sure that whatever you get is current, and probably should be tagged as such for your application. Just my 2 cents.
HEADS UP for all you folks that keep a portable in your vehicle (I keep an aluminum valved Amerex 2-1/2 lb B-C in all mine) check the guage regularly and make sure that you rap them with a rubber mallet upside down, or hold them upside down and whack them against your tire to loosen up the chemical.
When you do it with a rubber mallet, you can actually hear the sound change as the powder loosens up.
The vibration packs them pretty tight after a short time, and they don't like to squirt that way! I think school bus drivers do it daily as part of their pre-trip checks. As a matter of fact, that is the only thing performed besides a visual inspection, when a portable is serviced and tagged annually. Six years they get broke down and inspected, and I think 12 years for a hydro-test. Date of mfg. is stamped on the bottom edge of the bottle.
Another thing: around here WA. if you respond to a fire and use your extinguisher, the FD will re-fill it for you for free!
Peace
I have a large, 3 story rural home that was built about 175 or so years ago- and fire remains a real concern. I keep a 15 or 20# dry chem extinguisher on every level, plus a couple of smaller (10#) in the kitchen. Dry chemicals do make a mess when set off, but a significantly smaller mess than a fire makes. They also knock down a lot of fire very quickly!
In my shop I also keep several dry chems and a large CO2 extinquisher. I have been a vol fire guy for many years and have some experience using all of them, so I have a good idea what I'll need to grab in a given situation.
Purple K is a brand name for a type of dry chemical- marginally more effective in some industrial settings, overkill in a home. Halon/Halotron has no place in a typical residential setting.
Pressurized water extinguishers are also very effective, but should not be used around elec fires! They do, however, make great super soakers... and will also put out a lot of fire.
As someone else has said, all are available used and not much goes wrong in an extinguisher- they just need to be checked regularly.
=====Zippy=====
water and electricity don't mix.... PERIOD>>>>
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Purple K or CO2 are great. We also used to use "light water" in stirrup pump extinguishers in the pits ("light water" comes in an envelope that you mix with water, it creates a sticky protein liquid that coats everything and snuffs the fire - I no longer hav the slightest idea if it's still available or it's brand name).
You can often find used 20# extinguishers at surplus stores and places that sell used commercial fixtures.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I like the foam units. Many, be sure to check, can be used on electrical fires at less than 200v to ground. Very unlikely your house has anything that exceeds this.
Foam has advantages. First it works. Really quite well. My little unit with 10 pounds of agent has a 8A, 70B rating. To get the same effectiveness you would need a much larger dry chemical unit. Almost twice as heavy.
Foam tends to cling and stay put. Dry chemicals quickly fall away from vertical surfaces. Foam also penetrates absorbent materials while dry chemicals stay on the surface. Both these points make a big difference in practical application.
With foam you surround the base of the fire during the natural action of fighting it with sweeping motions. Effectively creating a less flammable ring that slows its spread. Even if you run out of agent, less likely with the more effective foam for any given weight of extinguisher, this barrier gives you more time to cut and run. And more time for the guys with the big hoses to get there.
Foam units lack a class C rating simply because the foam is conductive but don't let this scare you. The NFPA excludes any conductive material, no matter how non-conductive they may be at lower voltages, from getting a C rating. The unit I have has a 35,000 volt discharge rating and is allowed for normal house voltages. I wouldn't worry about it but do your own research. Your the one likely to need it so educate yourself. Asking the question here is a good start.
A big advantage with foam is clean up. Dry chemical units are notorious for spreading their dusty and difficult to clean agent over a wide area. I helped clean up a restaurant that had a small fryer unit, about 12 pounds, blow in an accident. The agent was thick 40' away and covered every horizontal surface.
With foam it would have been a little mop, bucket and sponge work and open in an hour or two. As it was the place stayed closed all day and night. They were still finding patches of the agent weeks later.
Halon would be ideal. The only extinguisher that was IMHO knock-you-socks-off effective was a 10 pound Halon unit. Essentially it knocked out a car fire in a carport and the flaming house by itself. Only weakness of Halon, shared with dry chemical, is that it doesn't cool the fire base and the fire can smolder or flash long after it is assumed out.
Best for cooling is, of course, water with just a bit of detergent added so it soaks in. But while foam is essentially non-conductive at line voltages water is fairly conductive even at 120v. Definite no for a fire in a panel. At least until the power is cut.
I like CO2 about as much as foam but these units are expensive and only really effective in enclosed spaces unless the fire is tiny. They are essentially proof from electrical shock and leave no mess. On the other hand in an enclosed space they can flush out oxygen. Killing both the fire and anyone in the space.
On the other hand a small CO2 unit directed into a small Styrofoam cooler with a six-pack inside gets your brew from 80F to about 30F in seconds. A really good trick after a week of summer camping. Had a friend who had easy access to refill his unit so it was cheap. Very smooth that.
Your right you likely won't need a class D extinguisher. Magnesium, sodium, potassium. Of course you likely have one. A small one. Most class D units use common salt as the main ingredient. Some mix in some copper. The high temperatures, so hot it breaks down water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen, melt the dry salt which then coats the burning material keeping oxygen out. Sometimes it even works that way.
Carriers have a couple of large class D units on hand but most crews will try mightily to get what is on fire over the side.
All that said I like a good foam unit. IMHO they are the best combination of strengths while minimizing the down side for most homes.
Wow, informative posts!
BTW, spoke to a Fire Captain today at the fire prevention line; he couldn't have been less interested and more bored with my question if he had tried. That was disappointing.OK, read everything with interest, was already to buy pressurized water extinguishers and you got my attention with the acqueos (sp) foam extinguishers. Looks like there are two kinds; AFF and ?APP? Any comment on which kind would be best for a household fire?
Thanks!
NotaClue
Forget the fire extinguisher and get freezers and fill them with snowballs.http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1275583.html Ananova:
Fireman use snowballs to quench flamesRomanian firefighters managed to put out a fire in an apartment by throwing snowballs through the window.They used snowballs because they could not got their fire engines close enough to the building in Sibiu.Fire crews arrived within minutes of the alarm being raised by neighbours of the elderly woman who lived in the apartment.But icy roads prevented them from getting close enough to the building to use their hoses so they resorted to desperate measures.Chief firefighter Florian Chioar told National newspaper: "We had to do something because our cars couldn't get near that building. So we used the snow and put out the fire in about 30 minutes."
This is a GREAT idea! Especially here in Northern California!
(where it hasn't snowed and accumulated in about 100 years)Still, I appreciate the thought...
NotaClue