In placing the manufactured rim-board on edge on a 2X6 top plate … with the bottome edge of the board being so TOTALLY straight and the top plate of hem fir naturally NOT being as totally rigidly straight as the rim board, one ends up sometimes with long ‘cracks’ here and there along a 20 foot wall. In other words … the rim board is NOT touching perfectly on the top plate the full length of the run. It’s only a 1/32 to 1/16″ ‘gap’ … not much .. but with the manufacctured rim being so absolutely straight it will, theoretically, never close, and this means that the weight will be unevenly distributed to the wall/studs below.
So: do builders simply leave this gap and forget about it? Or is there some ‘treatment’ that is undertaken in response to seeing daylight under the rims?
thanks –
nb
Replies
Insulate the rim, between the floor joists.
Normal procedure around here and most other places.
I'm only half as dumb as I look.
Insulate the rim, between the floor joists...
What? That doesn't address the problem of the uneven marriage of the rim nto the plate! I'm talking about weight distribution ... are you suggesting to simply cover it over and not worry about it? I guess I don't get it.
nb
newb.... your description doesn't set off any alarm bells...
<<<It's only a 1/32 to 1/16" 'gap' ... not much .. but with the manufacctured rim being so absolutely straight it will, theoretically, never close, and this means that the weight will be unevenly distributed to the wall/studs below. >>>
put your second floor joists on.. and glue your subfloor in place
everything will crush to even out the bearing.. it'll be fine
and i only hope we get as little gap as you didMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
...put your second floor joists on.. and glue your subfloor in place everything will crush to even out the bearing...
Wooo - Hoooooo!!
Amazing how relieving it is to hear someone of greater experience say "don't sweat it, it'll be fine" when your putting something together alone for the first time!
Thanks!!!
nb
yeah, but i was whistlin past the graveyard when i said it
all kidding aside... many gaps much bigger than that are built into some very well-built housesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Take a deep breath man, gaps do happen. Believe it or not it will be fine.
It might settle over time, probably won't. Unless pointload above is right on your gap.
I wasn't clear on what you were asking about, how to fix or what goes in there or what.
Since when did you start using rim? Aren't you the frankenrim dude? I'm only half as dumb as I look.
Since when did you start using rim? Aren't you the frankenrim dude?
Yup ... tha's me.
But I've come up floor by floor using my own 'manufactured rims' ... actually building full length headers to function as rims ... 2X10's on their edge with 3X inserts to hold them apart with insulation between and with a bed of 3/8" or 1/4" ply to bring them up to the joist heighth of 9.5". But I'm tired of building them! And have received so much flack here for mixing lumber with rim-board that I thought I'd give the r-board a try. It's about twice as expensive but I'm to the top (fourth) flr now and wanted to give it a go before finishing. I'm actually looking forward to the simplicity of it! Ha! :)
nb
WE WANT PICS ! WE WANT PICS ! WE WANT PICS !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
WE WANT PICS ! WE WANT PICS !...
Ya know .. I posted four pics 6 or 8 weeks back and got zero response! I LOVE to show pics of what I'm doing ... love it when friends drop by and I get to walk 'em through. Those that I posted here ( I dunno how to find them now) are at two floors ... I'm now putting up the ceiling of the third (flr of fourth). So I've got some better picks now. I'll try to get em uploaded this weekend. If you can find those I already posted ... pls post em.
thanks -
nb
found the pics i did a month ago but they don't show much.
no sure how to steer you there ... does this do it? 76134.66
yeah ... looks like it works.
that shot of the two stories is now three stories and will soon (hopefully) be four.
this is a project i am doing ENTIRELY solo ... and brutha .. it is a SLOW way to go!
nb
here's one from there
View Image
and the plan that you displayed
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/26/2006 7:11 pm ET by MikeSmith
thanks ... yeah ... top floor is forty feet with a 360 view from one of the highest points in town. can't wait!
n
Its faster by a long shot. I can't fault you for trying to save money but mixing pieces of a floor puzzle isn't a good idea.
Before all the engineered bells and whistles BS came out, I built with dimensional lumber and those rims had alot bigger crowns than the ones you described. And those houses are still standing to this day with no problems
I actually think they will be standing longer than the engineered ones but what do I know. I'm only half as dumb as I look.
you could set the rim board on a bed of mortar(grout) that was spread on the top plate....that happens
Well, from the pictures I've seen your building on top of a slab. You show me a slab thats perfectly flat and I'll show you a guy who doesn't jack off....Put shims under the bottom plate and your top plates will level out accoringly. A 1/16th or 1/32nd gap is a testiment to how flat your slab really is, thats awesome in any ones book!Jeff
rough framing... its just an expression
You show me a slab thats perfectly flat ...
this slab was put in by Tongan's ... (you know .. from the island of Tonga in the S. Pacific) It's a 30 by 20 ft. slab ... absolutely level ... and it measures corner to corner only 1/4" off. Amazing ... AND ... about 60% of the higher bids that I had and the lowest of all. They were wonderful .. full excavation in a difficult, tight space ... great to deal with .. great job.
nb
Edited 8/27/2006 3:47 am ET by newbuilder
You show me a slab thats perfectly flat and I'll show you a guy who doesn't jack off
LMAO...... I don't know if that's appropriate for the forum... but it's funny as heck.View Image
you could set the rim board on a bed of mortar(grout) that was spread on the top plate....that happens...
you mean 'grout' as in brick laying mortar? ... or tiling grout? is this done? would one just slap it on there? or put a little wood strip along either side to 'contain' it? never heard of this .. would love to do SOMEthing to affect a full contact run.
nb
Edited 8/27/2006 3:47 am ET by newbuilder
Microsofty, or Engineer? I got 100 bucks that says an Engineer for Microsoft. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Please do tell us the truth.
I got 100 bucks that says an Engineer for Microsoft....
no no ... not an engineer.
((pls contact for info on where to send $100.oo))
nl
You could spend a dozen hours or so grouting it, shimming it, scribing your rim, and generally fussing with it. In the end.... it won't make a bit of difference in how the frame functions and performs. You're not working with CNC cut pieces of precisely dimensioned material..... so expect results equal to the quality of your stock. In the end.... it won't change a thing anyway.View Image
You could spend a dozen hours or so grouting it, shimming it, scribing your rim, and generally fussing with it. In the end.... it won't make a bit of difference ...
Is your meaning here to just place the rims and ignore any gapping?
My cuts are all exTREMEly precise and my plates "appear" to be 'perfect' and they measure out to be ... but here and there when the long straightedge is placed ... daylight.
I get what your saying you don't hold much hope for .. I don't get what your suggesting.
thanks -
nb
Edited 8/27/2006 1:53 pm ET by newbuilder
The gaps bother some people, but to those who know better they are not going to cause the building to collapse in on itself. Especially 1/16" gaps.
Try and build with dimensional lumber and see what gaps youu have then in your rims. Put the crown of the board up and nail it in place. Nail your joists and sheet your floor.
As for everything being precise, thats good you take the time to do that. I do too but don't think you are better than anyone because of it. 10 years from now they will all have gaps due to shrinkage. After the moisture is dried out of the board it shrinks leaving gaps in your precise plates.
Diesel hand frames his roofs so accuracy is at a premium for him. He gives good advice listen to him.
I'm only half as dumb as I look.
I definitely DO listen to him -- and to many others here ... that's why I'm asking for further clarification .. otherwise I wouldn't care to. These boards have been a God-send to me over the past few years and I greatly appreciate that.
I WAS using timber ... 2X10's (built up to 9.5") all the way up on my first three floors .. no rim joist material. I was told there would be trouble down the road if I mixed using tji's with using timber for my rims. I went ahead and did it and it 'appears' to be good and sound. But for the top floor I thought I'd try using the manufactured rim joist ... but when setting up to place them on the plates I discover that there is gapping because no plate is absolutely perfectly straight for the full run and the manu-rims are perfectly straight. Thus, my question naturally arises .. how to address this gapping (since it clearly unevenly distributes the weight).
I have NO sense whatsoever that I'm "better than anyone else" ... I was merely attempting to point out that even if you are building your own structure and have the luxury of taking all of the time that you wish to make sure that every measurement and cut is perfect .. IMperfections do still occur!
Again, still wondering if there's any way to address the gappage .. or not. IF not, then fine .. I'll just place the rims and continue on ... but then I wonder how that's better than using hem/fir?
thanks,
nb
Have you set a joist up against the rim in the gap?
Does the I-joist stand taller than the rim? Probably not. The rim acts as a header to keep the weight above from crushing the joists. As long as the rim is secured as it should be it will be fine. It may settle over time but will not endanger the structural integrity of the floor system. Once the gap is settled out it won't go any further.
As for Hem fir the gaps are usually much larger. 1/2" gap is not all that uncommon.
The advantages that the companies promotes are larger spans, and less squeeks due to shrinking of the lumber. Engineered lumber will shrink but not anywhere close to dimensional lumber.
I'm only half as dumb as I look.
It is your place man, if you want to take the time to scribe the rim to the plate do it.
Or take a power hand planer and plane the plate flat.
Shim in between the two top plates is another fix.
It's really dealers choice on the way to fix it, if you are going to lose sleep over it.
Don't trim it to far so the joist is taller than the rim though.
Get them pictures for us too, I want to see this thing.
Have a good weekend.
I'm only half as dumb as I look.
I'm wondering if mixing the timber and engineered products wont bit you in the butt later on.
Since the dimensional lumber will shrink more than the joists, aren't you setting yourself up the have those first two stories joists crushed a bit? I would think this would be a much bigger problem than tiny gaps on the 3rd floor that will settle out.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Since the dimensional lumber will shrink more than the joists, aren't you setting yourself up the have those first two stories joists crushed a bit?
yeah .. we've already been WAAAY out and around and back about this on another discussion thread a few weeks back. I've got enough blocking all around that this shouldn't ever prove to become a problem. Bases covered on that.
nb
Most of my new construction building has been custom homes and. with the exception of a dome a few years ago, all have had 9' and 10' ceilings. We usually run our sheathing horizontally (been lots of dicussions about that!), but we make a point to ensure the sheathing layout ALWAYS bridges the framing between floors, tying everything together, including the rim joists. And we usually nail that floor intersection pretty heavy.
But as others have said, the gaps you are concerned about are, in the long term, insignificant and inconsequential.
I would think the grout filling thing would be a PITA and a waste of time. A wood shim here and there in the worst spots probably wouldn't hurt, if it will make you sleep easier.
I was, in an earlier career, a construction millwright, where tolerances are MUCH closer than with wood structures and we used non-shrink grout for setting machinery.
But home building is NOT like setting machinery.
I do a bit of log building and Timber framing where the modern trend is to build cabinet quality joints....but I've scrutinized some of those 200 and 300 year-old hand-hewn buildings in New England and most of the joinery is pretty crude and yet the buildings are still standing and in good condition.
It's OK to be anal, but the art is knowing where anal is important.
But I do admire your diligence!
"Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an an axe." Unknown
I meant just what I said. Spend the time and fix it if it makes you happy. But it won't affect the quality, performance, or outcome of anything at all. You can make a frame literally perfect if you want to.... but it still won't stay that way for long. There will be movement equal to or greater than that 1/16" that you're fussing over now in seasonal movement alone, never mind the drying and aging process.
But it's your house. Fix it if you like. But don't get ticked at me for telling you you're wasting your time.... I'm just trying to save you from sweating something that is truly insignificant.View Image
thanks guys -- i appreciate the feedback ..
nb
i have used non shrink grout under steel columns for when you have to level a column base on an uneven floor.. You could put the mortar in an icing bag (probably a masonry term for it) and squirt it in there instead of using a pointing trowel...and when it starts to set up just slice it off where it has oozed out. I'm thinking that a mud sill is called a mud sill because it was embedded in a grout mixture...probably for weatherstripping purposes as opposed to structural. Either way it is an easy task and cheap like borscht.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm thinking that a mud sill is called a mud sill because it was embedded in a grout mixture...
Where I grew up there are older houses built on the ground - directly. Floor joists on the mud. My grandmothers place had the joists removed and replaced with PT since the termites had been at work. The house is at least 60 years old, since my mom grew up there. (not exactly FINE homebuilding)
So that was my read on the mudsill term...
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Actually Huddledmass had it correct. The term mudsill came about as the rough sills (usually 4x6) was set in mortar on top of rubble foundations. The mud's main purpose was to provide a base on which to level the sill. The sills were set in fresh mortar and tapped down until level.View Image
sure - it would have been a "sandsill" where I'm from anyway.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Glue the gaps. If they get bigger than 1/16th, then maybe you might think about shimming each joist so it won't settle over time. Use wood shims and jam them tight.
blue
If you use a polyurethane glue (don't forget to give the gaps a spritz of water) the foaming action will help fill the spaces too.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!