I am a GC and finally built my home – an Arts and Crafts style bungalow…I have a lot of experiences installing fireplaces, however, we plan on installing a woodstove to help heat the house. I would like to do some type of rock hearth and wall with a massive mantel…any suggestions. Not sure where to begin…
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I dont understand what your question is ?
Edit back so it doesnt sound short .
I guess what I mean is what kind of rock?
Here that could mean flag stone which comes in the same thickness if you desired and would have to follow it for the wall.
I normally use native feild stone and have a way of doing it to match rock within a couple of inches thick for a flat floor. Still though there has to be some standard. Once thats done the wall is laid up to a point to stop for the mantlel or go all the way up to a higher point with bolts or wood inlaid in the wall to attach the mantle . Depends on what you want.
I like to build massive mantles myself and you can buy less of ones. There again its up to you what style you want . ?????
See ? wide open subject.
Tim
Edited 1/22/2007 3:14 pm by Mooney
start by selecting the wood stove you want to use. The size of the non-combustable surface and wall is determined by the stove size and required setbacks from its door openning.
Then select a stone typoe that looks good with both the stove and the rest of the decor.
Then plan the rest of the detailing around all that.
I think Taunton has a book on fireplaces that has a large section on wood stoves also, if you need ideas and inspiration for designs.
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There ya go.
I edited mine while you were typing yours.
I just dont know what hes asking for exactly and we gave two different answers , so there ya go. <G>
Tim
Am i the only one who thinks "mantel" and "woodstove" don't go together?
Edited 1/22/2007 3:27 pm ET by splintergroupie
Typically, you are right, but when done high up in a large enough room, and with overall rugged decor, it can look right in the same way that exposed beams can be decorative. A large slab of wood projecting from the rock wall behind the stove, for instance.
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It seems to me a large slab of wood projecting anywhere towards a wood stove not ducted into a fireplace would mess with clearances a great deal. Maybe the OP isn't thinking wood...
True - it can get constipated for space
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Am i the only one who thinks "mantel" and "woodstove" don't go together?
A lot of woodstoves are plugged into a fireplace, so it doesn't seem all that odd. Just a matter of how it is executed.
I could tolerate this one:
View Image
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Edited 1/22/2007 4:31 pm by JohnT8
I dont like it at all but then you didnt ask me if I wanted a diet pepsi.
Tim
I will offer you a burbon if you want it!;)I just spent some time viewing Google images ( 28 pages so far) of wood stoves, and harvesting a few. One thing I was amazed to see ( I don't know why) is how many of them were illegally installed. A lot of them were in vacation home rentals! The people who use those half the time know absolutely nothing about how to burn wood safely in the first place, then give them a pile of wood and an illegal install and Darwin's Awards comes to mind.Something else that stood out was a great amt of vacant headed lack of planning shown by the stone floor being placed directly on top of the finished floor, raising a trip step. I would not even think of leaving a toe-stubbing trip hazard in such a dangerous location...Anyhow -
Here are a few, and a link to a stoneworks that has some interesting and inspiring photos...http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nativerock.com/Angular_Building_Stone/Pritchard_Slate/pritchlaidup12op.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nativerock.com/Angular_Building_Stone/Pritchard_Slate/pritchard_slate.html&h=193&w=288&sz=8&hl=en&sig2=VcvwUgxv5kOABniCmJaCxw&start=368&tbnid=jVgybi7RBY-XaM:&tbnh=77&tbnw=115&ei=oy-1RezXKcLgiwGXhZyZDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwood%2Bstove%2B%26start%3D360%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
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Paul, is there Code about a stone heart next to the finished floor height, or is that a personal wish? A hearth is not typically in the traffic pattern, unlike finished floor level differences that develop in doorways between rooms. That's something i'd never put up with, but people here deal with it regularly.
I don't think it's code - just good sense.
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I guess it's the plugged-in look i find less than appealing. Isn't there also a problem with woodstove gasses doing damage to a normally constructed chimmey bec they are hotter than normally produced in a fireplace? And the sealing issues in the throat...difficult. I did this once in a rental...no good memories of that except it was warmer/cheaper, i didn't know any better, and i didn't own it. <G> Aside: I had some friends who turned their fireplace into the setting for the television. They call it "The American Hearth".
It really can be difficult to seal the damper plate where a stove inserts. Wood stove gases are actually cooler than fireplace exhaust. The problem can come in when the fireplace flue is too large, so it does not draft well and runs too cool, leading to excessive creosote condensation, and later - chimney fires if not cleaned. Of course the chimney fire is hotter than either.
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The chimney sweep I talked with a couple years back and the chimney installer a couple weeks ago both recommended that even with a masonry chimney that you line it with SS chimney pipe. They said you're going to have less problems down the road. Easier to clean, better draft, more reliable.
Would you agree with that? Or were they just selling chimney pipe ;)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
They were absolutely right . That sizes the flue to the stove and makes it easy to clean.Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way.
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Wood stove gases are actually cooler than fireplace exhaust.
That runs counter to what i've read, so i did some research on the Morsø site. It said that fireplace flue temps run 250-400* while woodstove flue temps easily hit 750* with no problems.
?
>>>>>>>>>woodstove flue temps easily hit 750* with no problems. Maybe running wide open, but most woodstoves are operated damped down for most of their burn time. My truck will do 100mph, but that doesn't happen in normal use.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
What CAN happen and what typically DOES happen is contrary. Fireplaces normally do not need to have the flues cleaned because they burn hot so the vapours don't cool enough to condense. wood stoves on the other hand, are designed to capture the heat and not allow it to escape when operated properly. So that is why wood stove flues are more prone to creosote build up. Cooler smike makes more condensate on the cooler side walls of the flue.I took a look at your link.
"single wall parts of the stove can easily hit 750 degrees with no problems."The surface of the stove is what they report getting that hot, not the pipe, which they recommend might be closer to 250 to 350.Condensate forms beginning at about 410°F if my memory is correct, and is really bad down around 250°, so it's best to operate with clean dry wood at stack temps closer to 350-400. It is a dance between heating efficiency and heat waste, and the dangers of creosote build up.
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The surface of the stove is what they report getting that hot, not the pipe, which they recommend might be closer to 250 to 350.
My bad. I mistook the single wall flue for the single wall parts of the stove on that link i posted, which was from hearth.com, as was the chart. However, the 250-350* range you are mentioning here refers to the double-wall stove surfaces, not the flue gasses; we both goofed in our references.
However, back to the original assertion i challenged as to whether Wood stove gases are actually cooler than fireplace exhaust...the answer seems clear that in normal operating conditions, they aren't. One link i gave mentioned mud pack lined wooden chimneys, or temps in the 250-400* range.
This flue gas thermometer indicates that the temps i mentioned are not unusual, but actually on the 'tame' side. Note the probe.
View Image
Another one that attaches only magnetically to the outside of the pipe:
View Image
Am i the only one who thinks "mantel" and "woodstove" don't go together?
I prefer having it but seldom see it .
Tim
I used to own an old farm house with a massive fieldstone chimney running though the middle of it. I had a woodstove that sat in the firebox and used the fireplace flue. That fireplace had a large stone mantle that projected out into the room about 18" (I still have the scars to prove it). It didn't look bad at all and I'm convinced that it somehow aided in stirring the air in the room up so that there was a more uniform heat distribution (created turbulence???). The whole set-up worked quite well and I was able to remove the stove and have use of the fireplace during the rest of the year.
BILL
The advantage to a woodstove over a fireplace is the free circulation of air around it in addition to the radiant heat, compared to the uni-directional radiant heat coming from a fireplace (without forced air circulation). I can see the advantage a stone mantel would provide as a heat sink, but not as an aid to circulating heat. I would think the advantage you may have felt was exactly the opposite, that the mantel kept the heated air from rising as quickly. 7' ceilings would have done the job, too. <G>And, since the heat the stovepipe would give off is lost by running pipe inside the fireplace, this seems like only a good retro-fit, but not a best solution for a house built from scratch.I've got to go find my smelling salts...
The average fireplace is designed to pump most of its heat outside in a barely controlled process. Most of the reasonably designed wood stoves I've encountered contrast this in being fairly controlled burns that squeeze a lot of heat out of the wood.
The installer I talked to two weeks ago mentioned that he puts double-wall pipe on most of the wood stoves he does. Granted, you lose heat, but he recommends it because of the reduced setbacks required for double wall. My initial reaction was the same as yours, "I'm losing heat", but he just about has me talked into it.jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Reduced setbacks/clearances...It seems to me it would make more sense to run a double wall behind the stove for safety. The last i checked into this for a shop stove, two sheets of sheet metal, spaced an inch from the wall and from one another, was the best of all. I did this...the wall behind the stove was actually cool while the fire was full on. If you used a thicker stone instead, you would also have the safety, but not lose the heat from the pipe, plus have the flywheel effect of that mass. Unless you have a rear-exhausting stove, i can't see how the chimney is going to affect your clearance requirements beyond what the stove itself requires. Double-wall elbows? Just hand over the wallet and be grateful if you get the stitching back!
Some time in the near future I want to start a thread on non-combustable surround construction. On my current project, the wood stove is getting temporarily hooked up for heat, but will eventually be given a surround of some form. Since I'm down to the subfloor & studs, seems like a good opportunity to learn something new.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
I just did a search in Archivistan for <wood stove surround> and only got one hit, so i'll be looking forward to what your thread digs up.
A single spaced wall like that will cut clearance for a pipe down from 18" to 9". In a double walll chimney, they allow install to within 2" of combustables.
I don't know if there is official recognition of a dual wall like you describe. Without testing and UL certification, rule of thumb suggests you could halve that 9" down to 4.5". What did you go to?Same idea with the stove itself. Normal clearance of 36" gets down to 18" witha spacer on the stove itself, and a spaced heat shield on the wall allows reduction from that 18" to 9". The general principle accepted is that you can halve the normal requirement with a heat shield, as long as you provide air flow in and out.
I have seen people build a wall with an inch or two of clearance behind it, but no allowance for air flow. That doesn't work.
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This table( Clearance Reduction Table) lists the double and single sheets of metal behind the stove as gaining the same clearance reduction, from 36" to 12", which is certainly counter to how intuition would judge the clearances and to my experience.
I installed a single sheet (i used a strip of Delta rib roofing) from floor to ceiling in my shop, spaced from the wall on brass tubing and Piffin screws. <G> Around the front-loading stove itself, i placed a free-standing U-shaped metal piece that extend a few inches above the top of the woodstove. Stove>wall distance couldn't have been more than a foot; distances between sheet metal pieces was maybe 3 inches. The wall behind the stovepipe area was barely warm, but the wall behind the stove itself was cool.
In a double walll chimney, they allow install to within 2" of combustables.The closest clearance i could find on double wall pipe was 6" on several sites i checked, not 2". Are you speaking of a different kind of pipe than this kind?
I'm sorry, I was typing fast on that last one 'cause I was getting the dinner call.
( and she cooks better than you do!)
I meant triple wall pipe for the 2" clearance.
Double wall solid packed with mineral gets the same, but the air spaced double wall likwe you show used to be only approved for 9" clearance. Now I'm all updated!That reduction table is from _______? A code book I presume?It does show reductions of 50% and some at 56%, but with the maximum reduction to 12" minimum. They are being conservative, which is good, considering the vagaries of jobsite fabrication etc...
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Here is the clearance chart on the Napoleon I just purchased. With double wall pipe it requires 6" clearance to a combustable wall.
View Image
My inclination is to go ahead and set it up with 6" or so of clearance to the bare studs of the wall that exist now, and then when I create the non-combustable wall (in the future), it will be however-thick-the-non-combustable-wall-is closer to the stove. So if the non-combustable wall is 2" thick, the clearance would be down to 4"
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
I'm pretty sure that means 6" of circulating AIR-space between the pipe and the combustibles. The clearance charts of various materials distinguish between the material applied directly to the wall, and those with an air-space (usually an inch) between the surround and the underlying wall. Minimum standards are so....minimal. :(Edit: hard to say what hardwood would sell for, if people could even understand what they were offered. Wood was in short supply two years ago, so i paid $125/cord for DF - highest so far. I just a much larger 'cord' of LP last fall for $80, unsplit but mostly 4-8" rounds.
Edited 1/23/2007 8:19 pm ET by splintergroupie
The double wall also keeps a warmer flue temperature so there is a bit less creosote build up
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I had the benefeit of the chimney being a central chimney, so it acted as a giant thermal bank. Once it heated up, it continued to radiate an even heat, even when we banked the stove down for the night. As to the creosote problem mentioned by other posters, I swept the flue twice a year but never really had a problem (because the chimney/flue stayed hot enough to reduce creoste deposits?), I did burn mostly hardwoods though.
My feeling is that if your chimney mass is large enough and you can build your hearth large enough to accomodate the required clearences to combustibles there's really no reason not to do it if you are comfortable with the aesthetics of the stove, firebox and hearth.
BILL
Lucky dog, burning hardwood. I feel blessed if i can get my tentacles on Doug fir or western larch instead of lodgepole. None of it is as clean as hardwoods, but the pine means a trip to the roof every couple months.
What's the deal out there in MT?! I can remember Lee talking about that last year. No hardwood in MT. Makes me wish I could haul a semi trailer load or two of oak/hickory firewood out there. Wonder what it would sell for?
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
My woodstove is 16" from the wall - and wood mantel above. The stove has a heat shield on the back and an electric blower which forces air up & over the heat shield and up and over the top of the stove. I try and maintain the stove at between 400-500 degrees (which keeps the house in the low 70's) and the back wall and mantel are room temp to the touch.
You can do almost whatever you want for set-up if you move the hot air away from the stove.
For whatever reason I can't get pics to post on this site.
-Norm
I always get a kick out of it when someone posts a cryptic message and then disappears, and the discussion continues right on without them. :-)
LOL! Yep, lagunitaspete isn't learning much, but i had a ball tonight!
I can't get pics to post in IE, but i can in Firefox. I format in IE bec i'm too lazy to do HTML for Firefox. So i have two browsers open...
Here are two idea's
The first, Linda's stove, we set a Jotul Castine between two 8x16 solid block towers and bridged it at the arch with angle iron and built a curtain of 4x8x16 block across the front of the pipe up to 7 feet where we set a Hardi Panel ceiling sealed to a double thick (2 plys @ 4x8x1/4 sanwiched with thinset adhesive between the plys and all glued to the block with thinset) since the back was non-combustible we were able to drop to one inch clearance to the back of the stove, we tiled the other side where it is a wall in the sauna. It gets fairly warm. the 8x8 solid block sides still count as a single masonry ply so a 1" clearance to framing is required on the walls Above the 7' ceiling we go to from the single wall to Metalbestos. The front was tiled with multicolor slate that we got from Lowes at $2.60 / sf. the hearth is some broken edge stone library stepping we bought from a local stone yard.
The second idea, MPC fireplace, is an RSF Opel fireplace these things are fabulous, they are zero tolerance but they put out serious BTU's with out fans. They have two runs of 8" B vent that come vertically out of the heat exchanger at the top of the box and can be vented into the room (as here at 9' off the floor) or can be ducted to remote rooms such as the master bedroom etc. They take a 4" combustion air vent so they don't waste warm air. and they go through the roof in metalbestos like a wood stove. Best of all they are zero clearance so even though this looks like a massive pile of soapstone it has built in cabinetry that runs right up to the stove inside and the whole thing is framed in wood, wrapped with hardi backer and tiled with soapstone tiles (I ripped 12x12 tiles down to 12x3 to make a brick look.) We use the RSF opel a lot but have also used their competitor the Cozy Heat and that works just as well.
The hearth here is a piece of soapstone seven feet long by 7" deep by 1 1/4" thick. We were finishing up the house for our wedding, got the final inspection 7 days before the ceremony. I cut and set that stone toothpick the day before the wedding and my bride cut and set the five tiles that join it to the arch stone the day of the wedding so it would look a bit more finished for the ceremony. That's a good woman there.
Hope this is of help to you.
We installed a Pacific Energy stove 3 years ago, and run it 12-20 hours per day in the winter (mostly off wood from the property - 5 acres, though around 2 are inaccessible).As you'll see in the pictures, we installed it in a very open sunroom (no back wall to center room of house, 6' opening to den at one end). Stone floor (former outside porch). We installed it on top of a 1" piece of flat slate (to level the floor), with another slab on the wall behind it on 1" spacers (air gap at bottom for circulation). We didn't de-rate the spec installation distance, though we could have (it's 7" from the rear slab - double-wall pipe of course). Not a big stove (24-28K BTU official), but really warms up the center section of the house (about 2K sq. ft.). And a nice Arts & Crafts look, too.Modern non-cat stoves are pretty (flame) and efficient. An entire day uses no more wood than I can carry in one trip (admittedly, a sling in each hand) - around 10-12 split logs. And they're hypnotic, and a cat magnet. :-)
A related question:Have a clay lined brick chimney that doesn't get much creosote until it reaches the attic. Once it cools off there, we get buildupIs there insulation I could put on to help keep the temp of the chimney up to keep from getting so much buildup? Is foil faced foam acceptable?
you'd have to keep it 2" away from th emasonry to be safe and that would not help you that much, esp since you'd still have build up in the top 2-3 feet above roof line.Typicaly, with the sort of build you describe, the wood is softwood, it is at least somewhat green still and you are choking the stove down too much.Fire up a good hot fire every time you start it up or once a day, burn dry wood only, and do not make it a goal to try to get it to burn as long as possible.
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Well seasoned hardwoods such as oak, locust, etc. We do have to keep it choked somewhat, but not bad, its just when it hits the cool air, the chimney looses enough heat to form. This is about a 30' chimney, so it has quite a bit of heat/cold mass at times.
That is ataller than average chimney - no wonder it condenses. Just keep it clean.I have seen the upper portion close in often.One stove and chimney ( metal) I installed - I got a callback three weeks later 'cause it wouldn't draw.
I wsa really curious. Got up on the roof to look down and inspect the chimney, thinking maybe somehow I had left a bad connection or whateer...The creosote was so bad that there was barely enough of a blowhole for my thumb to fit in. In three weeks!!!!
they were burning totally green wood.
I educated them and cleanewd the pipe
No more call backs.
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The design and layout around that Opel impressed the snot out of me! If you have a higher resolution shot, that would be worth my time to download. great job!
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Thanks Piffin, here they are somewhat larger front and back with a sketch of the layout of all the hidden storage and stuff. I submitted it to FHB and to the new Taunton Book "Making Room" by Wendy Jordan but got shot down on both counts. Something about that gas range backed up 1" away from back of the zero clearance fireplace. Met specs and code but... Wendy did use about five of my homes in her book so that was a big thrill. Now I'm buying copies for all my past clients that got included and hand delivering them. There is another Jotul Castine in a fire proof box (metal studs wrapped in Hardibacker and stone tile at this part of my webpage that has a cool hall mirror on the back that is less than three inches from a single wall chimney pipe but gives the optical illusion of going into the pipe. (maybe you have to be there)http://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/indexFull.php?id=vidraMoody&t=The%20Vidra-Moody%20ResidenceThanks for the positive comments y'all.
Looks great...it appears to be the same type of Jotul we are installing. I will send photos when I finish this aspect of the job.
We use that Jotul Castine a lot, great stove. No combustion air intake but that hasn't been a problem in NC. Good luck with your project.M
I'm almost embarassed to post this after SN's great jobs, but obviously, not enough<G>Hearth is buckingham slate on 1/2" underlayment ply. The heat shield is metal hat channel over sheet rock w/ 2 layers of 1/4" hardie backer w/ all seams and joints fire caulked. Faced w/ more buckingham slate.The mantle is walnut. The breast plate is held 1/4" off the face of the slate, and the mantle shelf has a 1/4" notch down the lenghth, at the wall. Everything gets warm, but not hot.The stove is a Vermont Castings Interpid. 18" from back to slate, and 22" to mantle legs. It is even insurance company approved.Pretty simple, just took me 5 years to get around to doing it<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
You're right...SN did a great job but you're craftsmanship is quite apparent as well. Well done! Ours is coming along - so far it's been a fun project.
The only thing you have to be embarrassed about iswell...nothing
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The only thing you have to be embarrassed about iswell...nothingYou've, obviously, never tslked to my children<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
It's rediculous that we live in the same town and haven't gotten together for pizza yet. Drop by Anna Maria's one of these Fridays.
Michael
Hey Michael, I might actually make it by tomorrow...I love their low carb bacon and tomatoe<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Low Carb Pizza? We'll be there, hope to see ya. M
They don't like to take you out in public, eh?
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Absolutely awesome, from concept to execution, the website too!
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thanksm
Congratulations on your excellent taste in women and designs!