Installing hardwood floor over plywood subflooring. Should I put down Roisin paper or Tar paper?
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Red Rosin or photo paper. Have used both...Photo for the last few years
Bing
Photo for the last few years
Never heard of that. Do you tape together all the second copies of the 4x6 prints you get from Walmart?
Seriously, what is photo paper?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, you should.
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Which one? Rosin or Tar paper?
since you seem to have no serious moisture source on either side, the resin paper. It is cheaper, lays flatter, and is not going to leave you with a black streak on a wall accidentally.
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I thought that only happened on my jobs
Haven't been around for a few;
I started using the photo paper on the reccomendation of a friend who does a lot of high high end stuff in the Boston area..Does mostly kitchen work in 10,000 and over sq ft silly houses. He said the installers had all switched over to photo paper. I looked around, and low and behold, my flooring supplier had it in stock. Its a ( I believe ) 32" roll, white paper, says "Fujifilm" on it, and its pretty smooth, easy to tear and cut.. Have been using it for a while, no probs whatsoever.
I have a feeling that the poster who said that we still use paper because we've always done it is probly right....but I still use it anyway;) I can't think of any real reason, including the wood to wood reason, ( why would it move side to side if its nailed?) What I do know is that when I do my oak, I vacuum the heck out of the area I'm laying, right down to getting the plaster crumbs out of the dimples in the subfloor nails. Then I roll out the paper, use a minimal # of staples to hold it down. Do two rows, then cover with oak. If nothing else, it keeps #### from getting tracked onto the floor and getting "oaked over" and makes anything that gets on the white paper easy to spot and blow off....
Bing
"I have a feeling that the poster who said that we still use paper because we've always done it is probly right....but I still use it anyway;) I can't think of any real reason, including the wood to wood reason, ( why would it move side to side if its nailed?)"I would tend to agree that with modern framing technique and smooth solid subfloors we do now, squeaks are far less likely than they used to be on plank subfloors. the squeaks wood/wood was not side to side, but latteral, when there was deflection in the subfloor between planks. That would let the individual pieces of flooring slide across the subfloor and in relation to each other.You see it more in a very old floor to be able to understand the source. with a new floor install, the nails are still snug and tight in the wood, and the finish is gluing things together some, and the subfloor has less deflection under it all.But I don't know how long that will last, fifty or a hundred years?
And I have found that you can get a squeak in a new laid floor when not using paper. This was in a narrow hall at top of stairs, where I found a guy leaving it out until I told him otherwise.It was over a re-nailed old plank subfloor too though. I don't want to take the chance of squeaks and so I use paper on new and old subfloors.
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Well thought out Piffin.
My floor is wide plank subflooring (abit 2 inches thick) and I actaully want some squeaks in it.. (fond memories of my childhood) but I'll use rosin paper to minimise those to hopefully acceptable levels.
I'm a fan of rosin paper having smelled tar paper long after it had been laid.. (and I have a lousy sence of smell) I understand where in some circumstances it should be used but frankly the memory of that smell would cause me to seek another solution..
I prefer Rosin paper and while there are some here who insist on tar paper. (they're wrong and I'm right. Whatever they say bounces off of me and sticks to them! <grin>)
Been using Rosin paper for years with no problems.
m
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Been using tar paper for years-no problem.
... just don't use the tar paper over radiant heat.
Been doing this stuff for over thirty years and we started out with tar paper back then but the American Lung Association came out in favor of switching from tar paper to rosin paper about ten years ago or so and we made the switch and never looked back.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
That kind of makes the decision easy.
Thank You
Here's a question I've always had, but have yet to get an undisputable answer to, why use any paper at all?
rosin paper allows the two surfaces to move without creating "creaking" noises from the two surfaces(subfloor and finish floor) rubbing against each other.
other than that... ditto what "oldhand" said......
Geoff
to avoid squeaks of the wood/wood variety
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I've had a couple of recommendations to skip the paper completely and glue down to plywood subfloor with construction adhesive. No squeaks. I've never done it myself but I have a floor coming up in Dec. that I'm planning to try it on. Any thoughts? I guess I hope not to be the one who eventually takes it up.
I walked on a floor that had had that done to it about 5 years earlier.. you could hear the cracking and clicking as the gluemoved under my weight.. worse than a squeaky floor!
Traditional way works best.. don't try to reinvent the wheel..
If you are going to glue the floor, why not skip the construction adhesive and use troweled out flooring adhesive as per the manufacturers recommendations? Vic
<why not skip the construction adhesive and use troweled out flooring adhesive as per the manufacturers recommendations?>I wasn't aware that laying hardwood over troweled out flooring adhesive was a manufacturer recommended way of installing. That said, I don't imagine that running a bead of PL along the back of each piece is manufacturer recommended either. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, as frenchy suggested, just trying to line up what seems to be local practice with conventional wisdom. The rationale that I heard for gluing and nailing was that in an area with drastic seasonal changes in humidity the glue makes sure that each piece of hardwood expands and contracts on its own, with minimal gaps between in the winter, rather than having groups of 4-6 boards floating together and remaining tight with each other and one much larger crack appearing. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's what the nails are for. j
Google "glue down hardwood floor" or "hardwood floor adhesive". Vic
When that gapping occurs it's usualy a sign of poor nailing technique.
I can't tell you how wrong it is to try to glue down that wide of expanse of wood..
Wood has to shrink and swell depending on moisture. Glue does not accomidate that movement.
If you must glue edge glue one piece to another not the flooring to the subfloor..
Millions of square feet of looring has been simply nailed down and is fine..
I've put extremely wide planks down with screws and plugs covering the screws. but no glue.
OK, I get the message. Conventional wisdom carries the day - no glue.Interestingly I've heard from several here who've seen it done with bad results, but nobody who has actually done it himself, either for better or worse. I guess there's a guy I know who looks a bit like me who's tried a stupid thing or two now and again. j
Nothing wrong with gluing in the right place with the right glue.
It is generally not necessary, and doing it wrong or with wrong adhesive can be trouble, but it is one trick in the war bag
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I'll disagree that the gap he describes is from poor nailing. It CAN be is some cases, but when you have 3-4 together, then one gap, it is usually because the polyurethene surface finish has seeped into the joints and is acting as a glue to hold several strips together, with the occasional joint that is the weakest of those accidental gluings being the one that opens up.
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What I was thinking is curved boards forced together by nails have a lot of force pulling them apart..
I'm thinking that the flooring was installed in the high humidity of the summer and not extremely tightly nailed together. Or maybe the contractor was trying to make up for a non square room without the wedge look on the final strip etc..
While your example certainly would be possible the glue strength of polyurethane glue is only 58% of the strength of titebond111. Another words the weakest glue that Fine Wood Working tested. Now take a finish that's not designed as a glue and some seepage into the joints being enough to hold boards together? Possible but not very plausable in my humble opinion..
That's OK - your experience with it is only from reading article that dealt with issues other than what we are talking about here, and your finish of choice being shellac, you are out of your element on this judgement. I'm reporting what I know to be a fact of floor finishing and you are proceeding on theory.
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I'm willing to bet I've seen more floors done in my years in construction than you have. Considering you've been doing construction work for 40 years and I've only been involved with it professionally for less than 20 that's pretty bold statement..
But there is a world of differance between banging a hammer into flooring at the end of a job on a small island off the coast of Maine and visiting jobsite after job site in one of the bigger metro areas in the nation.. In the time you did a single floor I'd probably visited 40-50 homes.
Since you aren't restricted in doing floors alone it's doubtful you've averaged more than 5 floors a year. but let's be generous 10 floors? Whatever number you'll give me I'll accept. In all likelyhood I saw more than that in a week.. times 52 weeks a year plus the floors I've done myself and for others?
Clearly we differ and that's ok. If everyone did as I do it would be a boring world indeed.. I understand completely why you do things as you and countless others do..
It's about profit not cost & creativity.
"But there is a world of differance between banging a hammer into flooring at the end of a job on a small island off the coast of Maine and visiting jobsite after job site in one of the bigger metro areas in the nation.. In the time you did a single floor I'd probably visited 40-50 homes. "You are totally right.
But I won't hold that against you that you don't learn as much walking over a floor and looking at it as I do solving the problems with them by actually doing it.
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I worked on a house (as a trim sub) about 7 years ago where the flooring guy glued 3000 sq. ft. of 3, 4, 5" solid ash with titebond 1. It was glued at the tongue and groove, ends and glued to the fir plywood subfloor and nailed into the floor joists. I thought he was crazy. The floor made cracking noises for years as all the glue joints broke from people walking across the floor. PL is a different type of glue, but it leads me to the same conclusion. Solid wood expands and contracts with changes in moisture content, and you can't stop that movement with glue, nails. or any other type of constrictive fastener, you need to build with consideration for that movement. Most attempts to fight mother nature in this regard are futile.
The most important steps you can take to consider movement are acclimating the wood to the house (this means the house needs to have the HVAC systems working), making sure the flooring and subfloor have similar moisture content (check with moisture meter), and don't install wide maple flooring in a wet basement remodel or on the ocean.
As far as the paper goes, I still don't see any reason for it. I really don't think it has anything to do with squeaks. Two flat boards being compressed one on top the other doesn't make a squeak. The only squeaks I've ever dealt with were from loose boards rubbing along the nail, and from end grain rubbing where two boards meet (or a tread at a skirtboard). Paper doesn't help these situations. I do think tar paper would be a good idea if you are installing over a wet area, as it would certainly retard any vapor diffusion and help to minimize cupping of the floor boards.
It would be interesting to find out when paper started to be used. I'm currently on a house built in 1893, no paper between the floors and subfloors. This was true in my last house as well (1880). I wonder if rosin paper was used as an air barrier between floors , as it was used on the exterior walls, once central heating systems starting to become more popular?
I have lots of comments in response to various things you said.
First, I agree that the guy using TBI was crazy. That allowed for no movement and probably caused a few splits in wood grain as well. But "PL is a different type of glue" doesn't make sense to me. PL is a brand name and they make dozens of different glues. The most popular now is the Premium which is a polyurethene type. It does harden and does not allow for wood movement. I would only use it under wood flooring for small spot repairs and ends.
Bostik
http://www.bostik-us.com/products/index.asp?fa=subCategoryPages&divisionId=2&categoryId=2&subCategoryId=49&subCategoryPageId=31
has a great wood floor adhesive. It is also urethene based but allows for flex and movement of the wood to some minor degree. I have used it and never a problem.You also said, "Two flat boards being compressed one on top the other doesn't make a squeak."That is true, but when the subfloor allows for deflection, as the strip flooring deflects down, it slides along sideways from the adjacent flooring area enough to have an occasional squeak there. Better subfloors and good nailing help prevent that movement, but it still happens time to time. Like I said, there is probably less need for the paper now than in older homes, but it is still standard and best practice."It would be interesting to find out when paper started to be used. I'm currently on a house built in 1893, no paper between the floors"I rebuilt one that was built in 1800, remodeled in 1830, and remuddled in 1970. some of the flooring had old newspaper between. That may have been as much for draft stop as for squeak-stop, given the foundation style, LOL
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If it is the first floor and over a crawl space with no other vapor barrier I would use tar paper. Otherwise probably rosin.
There we go, that's the answer I would give!
It's the first floor with a full basement below. Basement has a concrete floor and fiberglass insulation on the walls. No insulation under the first floor. Which would you use under this scenario?
If it were me I would go with tarpaper over a basement. Retired until my next job.
I vote for Rosin, although I think the squeak thing is a myth. My floor guy has been at it for over 50 years and he's convinced me that it isn't necessary at all, and that installers continue to use it simply because everyone always has, and it's so cheap that its cost is inconsequential, so it's easier to simply use it than to try and convince someone that it isn't necessary (his opinion is that its use became tradition years ago when subfloors were 1x boards and the paper simply kept crud from falling in between the cracks).
I have a 150+ yr old house with 1x subfloors, and wide pine flooring, no paper in between the two and NO squeaks.
I used Tar Paper because I need frequent reference lines to help me stay on-course.
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I used to use Roisin paper but now I use nothing under the floor and have never had problems with squeaks. The reason I don't like to use anything is so I can see where the nails (Or in my case screws) are in the subfloor as I go.