A few years back I worked with a framing crew that built a lot of cut-and-stack roofs, really cut up, as we would call them, with hips, valleys, cripple hips, etc. As a result, we got a system going that I haven’t seen much (of course not, everything’s gone to truss roofs now), and curious if others are doing it. Me and my partner would snap lines and layout plates, then I would start cutting the roof, while the crew was framing walls and running joists. I mean every last hip jack, cripple hip, etc. Like a big Chinese puzzle. Then when the walls and ceilings were done, our crew of 5-6 would stack the roof out in about a day (3000 – 4000 sq. ft. house + garage). Of course, we’d usually spill over into the following day for purlins, fascia, etc.
For me it was a lot of head-scratching and double-checking and marking “packages” for each portion, but man it was awesome to watch it come together on stacking day! I used to pull layout from the corners, so my hip jacks were always the same, and I didn’t end up with an awkward situation at the corners (but I did sometimes have to fake something in the center, if the rafter tails were exposed).
Replies
you're a better man than i , gunga-din...
i gotta frame it as i go ... i get lost
Maybe Mike's not the demi-god of framing after all! <G> I don't do this for a living, but I sure couldn't imagine cutting such a roof entirely from measurements without popping things up to check them- it would give me the shivers...
Do you guys use a Lull did get the stuff up or hand it up? We're doing a 35' x 46' 2story, 10/12 hip with a 1 story wing on each end and a bump out in the back.
Its been a job just getting the stuff up there.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
it was all single-story, 5&12 pitch roofs. I tacked an 8d on the side of the ridge end, and hung rafters from the top plate all around the house. It was my job to oversee the stacking and make sure everything was there when the crew reached for it.
Please!
don't call 'em Lulls. Lulls are for the concrete boys, they are properly called rough terrain telescopic forklifts..
Just for the budget minded of you, the rent on a Rough terrain telescopic forklift (while it varies) is usually enough to not only pay for itself but provide a 20 to 25% savings in labor charges..
The real savings comes from the "easy" work. For example hauling the 3/4 subflooring plywood and putting it on the joists (rafters) picking up a whole stack of 2x4's rather than making thirty trips to the lumber pile, and especially in putting roofing plywood on and windows in place.. (make certain you order a work platform)
Most full time framers can pay for a forklift in five years and they have a usefull life (if you don't get one from a mason*) of 25 years before anything expensive needs to be fixed..
Certain brands to avoid, any import, such as Caterpillar , JCB, KD Manitou, certain Terex models, and John Deere's newest offerings..
Certain forklifts have serious stability restrictions in that when they were tested they failed and had to put a rear axle stabilizer system on. They include , the new Cat's, Lulls, Gehls, SkyTrack and Gradeall.
Maintinance on rough Terrain telescopic forklifts is pretty minimal, for the average full time framer plan on doing about 1 1/2 oil changes a year The new diesels are pretty easy to start even in the nasty cold we get here in Minnesota (if you get them with either the John Deere or Cummins engine) avoid the Perkins engine (Caterpillar uses the Perkins engine, mechanics call them Perkapillars because they put a Cat label on the valve cover but the engine tag clearly states made in England by Perkins) Both Cummins and John Deere are set up to use either and in fact often come with factory either injection with a cold weather package. The Perkins engine will blow it's headgasket if you use either to get it started and says so clearly in the owners manual.
And by all means order your tires foam filled! Tires are the number one maintinace item on any fork lift and it can be very dangerous if you pick up a nail and your tires have less than proper pressure in them the forklift can easily tip over, dangerous to say the least and if your lucky all you need to replace is the $17,000 boom!!! ..
In apples to apples pricing everybody should be the same price, I've sold for three manufactors in my 14 years and have access to all manufactors price list. There never was any real differance in their dealer cost.. Often the price differance is in optional equipment, such as cab or auxillary hydraulics. one dealer may foam fill their tires while another tries to get by with much less expensive tires.
If you ask me the brand to get is the one that the framers use most in your area. Not always the same as the brand masons use or the brand Steel erectors use.. A good dealer is very important.. I've never heard of a dealer claiming that they weren't the best but a way to test how good they are is how do they honour the warrantee?
When I sold Caterpillar, we'd honour the factory warrantee and even eat the mechanics travel time (something nobodies factory warrantee covers) we would only rarely provide a free replacement forklift if their forklift ever had to come in for service, (you had to scream bloody murder and threaten to cancel the sale usually)..
When I sold Gehls at the John Derre dealer we just billed the customer for mechanics travel time (and that could be expensive if the mechanic didn't have the part on the truck and had to go back to get it, (and sence few mechanics were ever factory trained, they almost never carried parts for Gehls)
I sell Ingersol Rands now for a dealership that specialises in Rough terrain telescopic forklifts selling primarily to Carpenters.. We don't even rent to masons. They abuse equipment too much and if you see concrete on the front end of a forklift you can bet that forklift has had a rough life..
Our warrantee policy is we try to get there the same day the owner never sees a bill and we eat any replacement forklift rent and the trucking involved in the swap both ways.
No brand is high in maintinace for the typical framer although the imports tend to have some serious issues with switches and controls that need frequent replacement.
Frenchy,
Ok, now be honest with me . We have a 1998 Ingersoll Rand VR-90B with a Perkins turbo diesel. We've had it for about 14 months and the only maintanence on it has been a loose wire here and there. We are on a plan through the Hyster dealer we bought it from that has a mechanic (big box truck) come out 4 times a year and service it. It has been a great machine for us.
I have been told by a number of different mechanics that that Perkins deisel is extremely reliable. What is your take? The Hyster mechanic told me that the newer Ingersoll Rands aren't as good because they are made in France. He isn't anit-France, but the newer designs aren't as rugged. I don't know what to make of things sometimes, but this machine has been really good to us. I see it on highway crews quite a bit too.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80211881.jpg
Glad you asked,
The old Ingersol Rand VR 90 was a great machine in it's day, still a pretty darn good machine and a lot better than most if a bit short on the reach deptment.. The Perkins in your Forklift is an OK engine (if you never use either to start it and accept the fact that it's not likely to make much over 10,000 hours before the engine needs overhaul..
Your mechanic has something that contains an element of truth but not all the facts..
the new VR 642/843/1056 are made in Pennsilavnnia (not far from the spot where the airplane crashed on 9/11 ) They are superb and rugged and extremely well made, we have very few service calls on any of the new ones and that speaks volumes for their quaility
the smaller forklifts made for Bobcat (and also sold thru real forklift dealers under the Ingersol Rand label) are made in France and they aren't nearly as rugged or durable as the American made versions.. They are however much cheaper and smaller than their American made cousins.. They are kind of a overgrown skid steer....
Frenchy,
I thought it was the smaller lifts he was talking about. I haven't seen anything newer from Ingersoll Rand. Do you have a website link? Thanks for the info by the way. If you were recommending one to me today that was similar in size (physical vehicle size), what would you recommend? I'll look it up. We won't be buying a new lift for awhile, but it's always good to know.
I think this year, 2005, my brother is thinking of buying a mini excavator for his business. He'd rather do that than replace his company truck. Do you know how much fun I could have in that thing? :-)
Frenchy,
Can you email me with more info about the new IR lifts? The boss asked me to ask you because we are going to be very busy again this year and it may be worth getting rid of the old beast we have (not the VR). If we do, we will probably go with a lift that is a little bigger than the VR90B. My email address is [email protected]. Send me any links you have. I can't seem to find anything about the new IRs online.
Thanks, and stay warm.
you work for Her-U-Lift???
I was leasing a IR from them untill i got out of the babysitting business...er...running a crew...
I've rented a few different models and makes since then on projects I've needed one for a week or two....and IR is by far the best....
Thank you Charlie,
I think a lot of guys follow your example. we currently have 65% of all the framers in Minnesota use our forklifts. The other 18 brands represented here in Minnesota have the other 35%
I used to sell Lulls/ Cats and Gehls. I hoped the people who bought them didn't ask for a demo against Ingersol Rands because I knew I would lose..
I finally wised up and started selling IR's about three years ago..
What's that calculator for in your OxyLights?
Figuring the tip on your clam sandwich lunch bill? ;-)
Out in NE Indiana, where the framing gangs are all Amish, it is always a pleasure to see the cutter, let's call him Amos, straw hat, beard, suspenders, scratching it all out using a pencil and a steel boomerang, and showing the little 14-year old helper, call him Jacob, how it's done.
They don't want you to photograph them, but it would sure make a good Norman Rockwell.
I don't need a Norman Rockwell, you just painted the picture in my mind - very well said. All the tricky fascia angles can be figured with those archaic framing tables, if you're an Einstein (or an Amos!). Even cheek cuts are tricky if you're cutting with a hand saw. The angle is 45 degrees from the plane of a vertical cross section, but it ain't 45 along the top edge of the rafter. Again, Amos had to figure all that out with the tables. Tricky stuff. Around our neighborhood some teenage Amish were getting big on water-skiing...until the animal rights people said it was working the horses way too hard.
I remember one my first hip roofs that I was ever involved with. The lead that I worked with stood on the ground and asked me for a handful of dimensions. The next morning when I got there he was unloading all the parts from his truck and I was amazed. He explained the entire process of how he got what he got and from then on I was hooked. I still haven't gotten the guts to precut everything but It certainly was a lesson.
Huck,
About 95% of our homes are stick framed roofs and cut up. It is certainly a lot more fun for me to cut and stack than roll trusses. I would love to see pics of your work.
Here is how I do it with some variation. I do all the calculating and most of the cutting for the roofs. We are down to 3 guys now (including me). If we have more guys (had 4) then while they frame, I'll start cutting the roof. Right now, I cut while the guys roll ceiling joists. On smaller homes, I'll cut while the walls are being framed. Construction Master is my friend :-)
Over at Joe Fusco's forum, John Harman (roof cutter), posted about gang cutting rafters and then wrote an article for JLC about it. I've spent some time corresponding with him and he walked me through it and now we gang cut our roofs. This last roof we didn't because the material was big and the pitch was a 12-12 and maxed out our saws. It has really sped things up, but it takes some organzation to accomplish successfully. Here's the article. It's worth the $3 to purchase it.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41e083aa0002f38f27177f00000105bf/Product/View/0409gang
Here are some pics of the tools we use to gang cut. It is really fun to do.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/5546331/71938467.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215122/53031627.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4419028/57033164.jpg
http://forums.jlconline.com/photos/albums/userpics/10074/Picture-017.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/5546331/71938467.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4419028/63898251.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4419028/57033167.jpg
thanks for the pics - they look really cool. I always wanted to try that. I gang-cut my starting cut at the ridge end, and the vertical cut of the bird's mouth, on the Common Rafters. Charles Miller of FHB took a couple of rolls of pics on one of our roofs for a story I wrote, but the story was later killed. He was nice enough to send them to me, but I'm not sure where they are anymore. Not digital, anyway, obviously. I did eventually get a good system going for jack rafters with minimum waste. My first cut-up roof was a tree-intensive learning experience! One thing I learned to watch for was variation in lumber. If your bird's mouth cuts are uniform, your Height-Above-Plate will vary with the lumber. Sometimes as much as 3/8 inch. So I made a template that hooked along the top edge, so that my bird's mouths would vary with the lumber but the H-A-P would remain constant. Probably overkill to a lot of framers, but when you combine a 3/8 diffenence in lumber with a further difference in camber (crown), you can end up with rafter tails off by 3/4 or more, too much in my opinion. I think gang cutting with the rafters upside down (the only way, obviously) naturally compensates.All those jack rafter cheek cuts @ 45 degrees were hard on the blade, so I used to keep a can of silicone handy, and spray my blade repeatedly throughout the day.I started with Construction Master, but later found a few quirks with cumulative error (maybe they've corrected it by now). Anyway, I eventually switched over to a trig calculator, and liked it better.I used to make a poster-board mock up of the roof angles, for tricky fascia cuts and so forth.
Try the Construction Master Trig Plus III. That is the one I have and love it. Joe Carola posted on the forum in the last month where they are selling it with a rebate. I think it was $69 with a $20 rebate.
The thing I like about the racks is that you crown down on the rack and mark the underside of the rafter. The roof turns out really flat this way. If it's a cathedral ceiling then I cull the really crowned rafters and use them for jacks.
Tim,
I have seen quite a few discussions on the gang cutting of hip roofs recently. You have become quite the advocate for this tech. I was wondering how you mark the various jack lengths. (A pair, 2, or set, 4, at a time I would guess, Still on the rack?)
I haven’t found it beneficial to gang-cut with most of the roofs that I get in our area as they are usually sprawled out craziness. Many of the ridges have no commons going to them and the jack count on what they do get is very intricate. They are not really suitable for gang cutting in my opinion. On simple full hip systems I would be more likely to gang cut.
Anyway, getting back to gang marking your top-cuts, have you tried marking the longest jacks and the smallest jacks and then pulling a string across the stack to mark the rest? The tails are all lined up and square. Then use a 4’ “T” square to mark the pairs or sets where the string crosses the jacks you are marking. I remember gang marking a very large full hip roof in this manner years ago and it worked for me. You have to have an equal number of jacks for each step to mark them with a string like I describe. I was just curious as to whether you have tried it or not. It should work for irregular hips too.
Mr. Jalp.
Mr. Jalp,
On jacks I like to start from the birdsmouth and then I measure my longest jacks. Sometimes is a pair, or sometimes there are 4. Just depends on the roof or section of roof. In the pics you can see how they are marked.
The last time I gang cut, What I did was mark a birdsmouth at each end of the pile and then measure the longest jack from the right, and the shortest from the left. It's a slight variation of Will's method. I'm still learning and tweaking every time I do it.
I always order material long enough to get 2 jacks out of each peice. Then I have less material to handle and not too much scrap. I'm not cutting the entire roof at once yet, I set up sections.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80210166.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80210175.jpg
Huck,
Crews that precut every rafter on a cut-up hip are more the exception than the rule. I pre-cut all roofs these days. I have over the years built the techniques and confidence to do so. I did not start out doing them that way though. The CM calculators are very helpful for jobsite rafter length calculations. The thing that I do different from your description is that I start my roof layouts from the King Commons and center layout from there. It cuts down on odd layout dimensions in the centers of full hips.
Mr. Jalp.
I did layouts both ways, from the center and from the corners. Pulling from the center is the "textbook" traditional method. If you pull from the corners, you do sometimes end up with an odd layout in the center. Which means a couple extra cuts when sheathing. And, if the tails are exposed (on the big customs we did the roof soffits were usually stucco'd) then you might have to "bob-tail" a few rafters, and add a block and a partial rafter to make the layout look aesthetically correct.The trade off, though, is that you can make a cut-list of jack rafters with dimensions that will never vary. The value of that simple fact outweighed the downside on most of our houses. Every outside corner had the same jack rafters throughout the house. In fact, you can start cutting your jack rafters without even knowing the roof's dimensions, as long as you know your roof pitch, rafter sizes and spacing.
Huck,
I guess it depends on which textbook you read. Marshall Gross's book, "Roof Framing", follows the method you describe. I most often work from common or center but I also mix it up sometimes. I calculate all rafter lengths from a layout point somewhere, whether on the plate or the ridge. If you know your rafter's layout, you can calculate it's length.
Mr. Jalp.
Ah yes, Marshall Gross's book, "Roof Framing" - a good book, but impossibly esoteric.
Huck,
Marshall Gross is not the only published author on the subject to be “impossibly esoteric”. I love all his little ”Rules”.
It seems that the more thorough the explanations the harder they are to understand. They make mountains out of molehills, IMHO. The explanations for laying out and calculating irregular hips and valleys in almost every book I’ve read are woefully poor. The marking and cutting process of the irregular hip/valley rafters as M. Gross and others generally use is very confusing. It is the week link in their methods.
The Swanson’s “Blue Book” is my personal favorite because they use what they call “The One Number Method”. What they don’t do is make any explanations on how to do Irregular Hip/Val Roofs. But their “O N M” works with irregulars too. Check out the way they explain the top-cut of a regular hip. It works for Irregs too.
Knowing how to make these cuts is a “Biggy” when it comes to pre-cutting a chopped up Irregular Hip Roof.
How’s that for some good “Roof Framing Bull”?
I enjoy it as you can tell. Good topic, always.
Mr. Jalp.
I struggled with the books and articles, and got frustrated. Marshall Gross seems like a talented roof-cutter, but less gifted as a teacher. (I did like his Height-Above-Plate explanation, which is an important concept to grasp, especially when dealing with hips and valleys)But then I went a different route. Prompted by an article in an old issue of FHB, I picked up a few basic trig books. I'm a little rusty on it now, because its been awhile since I've used it, but the basic trigonometric functions of a triangle will yield all the angles needed for a complex roof. Once you get there, you don't need anything but a trig calculator, because you realize that all that Construction Master is doing is basic trig, translated. Once you speak the language, you don't need the translation. Will Holliday had a practical field-oriented type book, which I think is finally back in print. And there is some guy in Hawaii selling a book on the subject also, but I don't recall much about it. The Swanson's Book - is that the one that comes with the Speed-Square? I don't recall the One Number Method.Using 2-by framing, the top cut of the hip or valley is not an issue, but once you go to a 4-by (or doubled 2-by) it becomes an issue. I never bevelled the top of my hips (is this what you mean by "top cut"?), but I made sure that the hip planed in along its edge, where the sheathing met it. As a result, there was a small gap between the edge of the sheathing cut over the center of the hip. Negligable at best, but something to be aware of nonetheless. With valleys, I made sure that they planed in with the sheathing along their centerline, where the sheathing met it. Ironically, the seat cut would be identical for either a hip or valley rafter, because in either case the H.A.P. would be measured in 3/4 inch (on a 2-by) from the vertical edge of the bird's mouth, assuming you are making a square cut at the bird's mouth. With timber framing it would be handled differently, because of the width of the material.
But then I went a different route. Prompted by an article in an old issue of FHB, I picked up a few basic trig books. I'm a little rusty on it now, because its been awhile since I've used it, but the basic trigonometric functions of a triangle will yield all the angles needed for a complex roof. Once you get there, you don't need anything but a trig calculator, because you realize that all that Construction Master is doing is basic trig, translated. Once you speak the language, you don't need the translation.
Huck, I don't know anything about trig, but I learned how to cut the roofs using good old fashioned geometry and simple math.
Once you understand that, you don't even need a calculator! In the good olden days, the framers simply used the framing square to layout all the roof members. By using the twelfth scale on the back of the square, its easy to instantly derive any rafter length....especially if you aren't locked into an exact roof because your matching up with preconstructed trusses...or some other critical factor.
The hardest part of learning that technique is understanding the differnence between the theoretical lines and actual lumber lines..which isn't really that difficult.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Huck, I don't know anything about trig, but I learned how to cut the roofs using good old fashioned geometry and simple math.
Trigonometry is Geometry! To be more specific, according to Clark University's website (http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/trig/what.html), "Trigonometry began as the computational component of geometry. For instance, one statement of plane geometry states that a triangle is determined by a side and two angles. In other words, given one side of a triangle and two angles in the triangle, then the other two sides and the remaining angle are determined. Trigonometry includes the methods for computing those other two sides. The remaining angle is easy to find since the sum of the three angles equals 180 degrees (usually written 180°).
"If there is anything that distinguishes trigonometry from the rest of geometry, it is that trig depends on angle measurement and quantities determined by the measure of an angle. Of course, all of geometry depends on treating angles as quantities, but in the rest of geometry, angles aren't measured, they're just compared or added or subtracted.
Trigonometric functions such as sine, cosine, and tangent are used in computations in trigonometry. These functions relate measurements of angles to measurements of associated straight lines as described later in this short course.
"Trig functions are not easy to compute like polynomials are. So much time goes into computing them in ancient times that tables were made for their values. Even with tables, using trig functions takes time because any use of a trig function involves at least one multiplication or division, and, when several digits are involved, even multiplication and division are slow. In the early 17th century computation sped up with the invention of logarithms and soon after slide rules. With the advent of calculators computation has become easy. Tables, logarithms, and slide rules aren't needed in trigonometric computations. All you have to do is enter the numbers and push a few buttons to get the answer. One of the things that used to make learning trig difficult was performing the computations. That's not a problem anymore!"
Well gosh Huck... I guess I do know about trig...I wish you could have told my high school teacher that...the guy who flunked me just becaue I only went to his class twice in the semester!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Huck,
I believe you refer to the FHB article “Framing with Trigonometry” by Edwin Zurawski. I have this article and it is in the back of a “Best of” collection of articles from FHB called Framing Roofs. It is a very good article. But it is not necessary to understand Trig to become a competent Roof Cutter. The only thing I find fault with in his article is the part about “Dropping the Hip”. The Swanson’s “One Number Method” does not mention it. (Yes, the little “Blue Book” that comes with the Swanson’s Speed Square.) The “ONM” can be used to cut the Hip without any extra HAP adjustments for fitting the hip perfectly. Depending on whose articles you read you will probably find a section on “Hip Drops”. (But not in the “Blue Book”.) The author of the “Blue Book”, who ever he is, seems to understand that the Hip (or Val) is the same length at its sides as it is at its center and if you simply mark it and cut it, it will fit, perfectly. Their explanation and illustrations do not show a diamond cut for the top plumb cut of the Hip. They make no attempt to try to explain the marking and cutting of a Valley rafter. (Which, Btw, has a different HAP, taller, than the same length Hip rafter.) I believe this is why so many authors include explanations about “Hip Drops”. They have all missed something so basic to Geometry and Trig that,…. when you figure it out…it dumbfounds. At least it did me.
I’m going to try to explain what I am saying without writing a book for a reply here. I have had trouble explaining this in the past so it won’t surprise me if I have trouble again. Please reread what I have posted earlier.
Hips and Vals that are parallel and sit on the same wall and reach to the same ridge have the same “effective run” and are the same length. They are however different in the way they plane. Hips plain to the sides, Valleys plane to the center. Therefore the HAP, as marked on the sides of these equal length, but different planning rafters, has to be different. I achieve this difference in HAP by marking valleys in the opposite way I mark my hips. I mark my Hips as the “ONM” explains. From the long point of the first top-cut compound miter bevel I hook my tape and pull and mark the rafter length that I calculate from the effective run used to determine the Common Rafter. I mark my hips heel stand on the side as I would a common, (only I use the H/V scale for the pitch and seat cuts). IOW, I mark Hips from the top down on the top of the board. I mark valleys from the bottom up on the bottom of the board. I mark them in a mirrored fashion. (I do not pre-cut any diamond cuts on either type of rafter. I make all marks before making any cuts. To understand this explanation better I want you to visualize both these rafters being cut w/o tails.) The marks made on the Hip represent the long to short of both the pitch cuts and the bevel cuts. (long points at the ridge end of the Hip and short points at the heel.) Valleys are marked in the opposite fashion because the long point of the pitch cut and the bevels is at the heel of the Valley and the top marks represent the short points of the pitch/bevels. Now, when you mark your HAP at the heel end of both rafters, from the top down equally it will be the fact that one line represents the long point of the bevels and the other represents the short points of the bevels that the equally marked HAPs will automatically adjust them selves to plane to the top of the Valley Jacks or Hip Jacks. Now, if you are saying to yourself that the Valley jacks are supposed to plane to the center of the Valley, but I have just put them flush on top, you are probably still following me. I simply cut a little higher on the Valley’s seat cut to be equal to the reveal I want to plane the Valley Jacks to somewhere well short of the center of the Valley (3/8”). I do this to insure that my decking is a tight fit to the top of the Valley. It is also more forgiving for the less than perfect Valley sheathing cut, that my help is so good at. I like to plane the Valley jack in at 3/8” from the edge of the valley, which is also 3/8” out from the center of the Val. (centered from the center).
This method works for any Hip/Val Roof, whether it is a Regular or Irregular Pitched Hip Roof. With Irregs it automatically planes and places a square topped Hip/Val perfectly at both the ridge and the corner of the wall plates.
My choice of onsite Rafter length calculators is the CM Pro. It will tell you the Irreg H/V pitch cut at the press of a button, which is a small time saver too.
Btw, The Thickness of either the Hip or Valley is not really a factor in its marking and cutting. It is totally irrelevant.
I have a couple of old drawings to help illustrate what I have said.
Now, that should do something for the Bull Session here.
Mr. Jalp.
Mr Jap, a picture is worth ten thousand words.
I could barely follow the explanation...our terminology clashes...but you drawings look good. I also measure to the edges of the framing members to effectively create the drops as needed.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue,
I could barely follow it myself. It is much easier to show it happening onsite than to type it out. A few thousand more pictures......and that should do it.
It is really a simple concept and eliminates the "Hip Drop" process. The coolest thing is the way it works with Irregs. That's a real "Biggy".
It is also cool to find another Framer that knows how to make these cuts. Oh, blue, when I'm trick cutting, for show, I tie on a Blindfold. (chuckle, chuckle =) )
Take care
Mr, Jalp.
I'm going to try that blindfold thing Mr jap!
I'll do it tomorrow and give you my report. What pitch shall I make it?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I think I should wear the blindfold more often. Like when reading????????
Mr. Jalp.
cripes...............talk about semantics!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all saying the EXACT same thing, only in other words and terminology.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Firebird,
I think everyone is on the same page, but Richard claims that you don't have to adjust a hip. I think anyway.
Besides, all the best arguments are when everyone says the same thing. Then after a long debate, it's realized and then that awkward silence ensues. I love that! :-)
On our job, we'll go round and round, then realize we all said the same thing. It's real quiet, and then everyone says "I love you guys, you are so smart" heheheheh
Mr Jap...I tried cutting blindfolded today. My saw missed everthing...no damage done...the guys were wondering why I had a blindfold on and was running around the deck with the saw running and hacking away at everything. Luckily the generator ran out of gas and everyone is safe.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
dropping the hip is a term that refers to the fact that the vertical leg of the seat cut on a valley rafter does not occur in the same place as the Height-Above-Plate. It occurs farther back, causing the rafter to "drop" a little lower than if the H.A.P. were measured at the seat cut.On a hip rafter the same phenomenon occurs, but the difference is that the Theoretical Length on the Hip occurs at the vertical leg of the Seat Cut, but on a Valley Rafter the Theoretical Length occurs at the H.A.P. line. I couldn't attach these files for some reason, hope the links work!http://www.thecastlebookroom.com/home//hip.jpghttp://www.thecastlebookroom.com/home//valleyrafter.jpg
Edited 1/10/2005 4:02 am ET by Huck
Richard, Richard, Richard,In all do respect,I think it's good as I've told you in the past the way you cut your hip but when you say this, "I believe this is why so many authors include explanations about “Hip Drops”. They have all missed something so basic to Geometry and Trig that,…. when you figure it out…it dumbfounds. At least it did me."You keep saying how your not dropping the hip when you are but you just don't call it that. You are adjusting your hip to plane it in I've told you this many times and I also cut a hip for you your way and posted pictures of it. When everyone here realizes what you're doing they're going to tell you the same thing.Your measuring your hip from the plumbcut down to the HAP cut with your hip length no matter what way you've figured it but what you do is you extend your seat cut 2" and when you cut your top plumbcut you cut it back 3/4" plumb towards the HAP cut so that slides your hip into place at the bottom and planes it in because you overcut your seatcut.Now when you take your tape after you've cut your top plumbcut and measure your hip length again you will be short 3/4" plumb you wont have the same hip length measurement. That's where your misleading everyone when you keep on saying that there's no "Hip Drop" involved when there is some form of adjustment to plane the hip in and when the hip hits the plates they will have the same HAP cut as the Common HAP cut.What you see in books and from what Huck is saying is that they mark the same hip length as you do but they're coming 3/4" in from the HAP towards the top plumbcut Aand marking the same HAP as the Common HAP and that planes the hip in no matter what you call it where your making your adjustment at the top once you've cut the plumbcut the way you do you have shortened the hip by 3/4" plumb at the top where as Huck is doing it at the bottom.So the bottom line is that you make it sound as if there is no such thing as a Hop Drop or there's nothing that you have to do in order to plane the hip in when you are ADJUSTING your hip by SHORTENING the hip at the top and CHANGING the hip length to plane it in.It works what your doing but you just don't seem to get it that you are adjusting the hip. Just because you don't call it a Hip Drop that doesn't mean that you are not doing something to plane the hip in because you are.The bottom line is when you measure your hip when it's all cut you will be 3/4" plumb shorter then the actual hip length so the explanation is because you have to adjust the hip to plane it in. If you cut the hip the actual length that you measured it would be to long.You cut your first 45° cut on your plumbcut line and then you flip it over and eyeball the second 45° cut to make a diamond cut so now you've just shortened it by 3/4" plumb so that's your adjustment. Don't you get it that you are adjusting something? That can't dumbfound you......;-)Joe Carola
I think Joe Fusco had a 3D graphic that went with this didn't he? As I remember it, most of us adjust at the birdsmouth to make the hip plane in. Richard does it at the ridge cuts. Same thing results, the hip planes.
Different strokes, for different folks
Tim,He just adjusts it without realizing that he's adjusting it but he's doing it at the top when he cuts his plumbcut 3/4" shorter whether he realizes it or not he's adjusting it. At the bottom it works because he's over cutting the seatcut so that allows his hip to slide in the 3/4" plumb towards the top.He just keeps saying that there's no "Hip Drop" or adjusting going on but there is. All he has to do when he's done cutting his hip is remeasure it and he will see that it's not the same measurement. I cut the hip his way before and posted it but anyone who knows what they're doing will pick up on what he's saying and I'm saying and realize that there is and has to be some adjustment no matter how thick the hip is.Joe Carola
I agree - what you're saying would work, as long as the seat cut were marked before the shortening at the ridge-end took place, and then when the 3/4 inch shortening took place at the ridge, the plate leg of the seat cut remained the same, but the vertical leg of the seat cut was moved back to compensate. This would effectively "drop" the hip the required amount. Otherwise I suspect that the forgiving nature of 2-by framing may be the key - you can't avoid the "drop" issue once you get into wider lumber. Ask a timber framer. Isn't Amish Jacob on the net to set this straight? (they could keep a computer outside, like the phone!)
Huck,This is the same thing I posted to Tim......He just adjusts it without realizing that he's adjusting it but he's doing it at the top when he cuts his plumbcut 3/4" shorter whether he realizes it or not he's adjusting it. At the bottom it works because he's over cutting the seatcut so that allows his hip to slide in the 3/4" plumb towards the top.He just keeps saying that there's no "Hip Drop" or adjusting going on but there is. All he has to do when he's done cutting his hip is remeasure it and he will see that it's not the same measurement. I cut the hip his way before and posted it but anyone who knows what they're doing will pick up on what he's saying and I'm saying and realize that there is and has to be some adjustment no matter how thick the hip is.This is something I did a while back.Joe Carola
Huck,This is what he does.Joe Carola
Joe Carola,
Please go buy the Swanson's Blue Book and read the short description on cutting the the Hip. The method they show does not make and adjustments or drops. It fits perfect as they cut theirs. They only make one bevel cut at the top because they lay the roof out o. c. from the corners as Huck and Marshall Gross doo. They don't have commons opposing each other at the end of the ridge.
They only give a very basic explanation on cutting simple regular pitch roofs. Yet I believe the Blue Book is for a more advanced user who already knows how to do basic step-offs with a framing square.
If I am dropping the Hip after all these years and I didn't even know it till you and a few others pointed it out to me a couple of years ago. Amazing.
I still maintain that if you have to drop, shift or adjust something to make it fit then your not doing it right the first time.
Your illustration is basically the same as the first of the two I posted above. Mine has the three equal dimension positions shown and yours does not. (notice the dim in the center) When I am done cutting my hips or valleys they are the same dimension at there centers that they were at their sides before I make the cuts. I think maybe the difference in our way of doing these is that you work from the center of the board out and I work from the side of the board to the center. Anyway, please review my stuff again. One of these days it'll snap for ya and you'll understand why I say "Dumbfounding!"
Richard
I still maintain that if you have to drop, shift or adjust something to make it fit then your not doing it right the first time.
My understanding was that the hip is adjusted because of it's thickness. If all the ridges, commons, hips/valleys were the thickness of a stringline, there would be no reason to adjust anything.
If the ridge isn't beveled, the post height has to be adjusted so that the commons nail to the edge of the ridge. The ridge is in effect "dropped".
Commons are ajusted for the thickness of the ridge and so is the hip. Doesn't it makes sense that the hip itself would need to be adjusted to plane correctly if it isn't beveled and the jacks are to be nailed into the edge?
I guess the way I'm looking at this is that hip could be likened in principle in some ways to a ridge. The ridge has to be adjusted based on it's thickness (or beveled). The hip also has to be adjusted because of it's thickness.
By adjusting at the birdsmouth, the length in the center of the hip does not change.
Tim,
I guess its been toooooo quiet for tooooooo long.
As I have said before, until I first started participating in these online forum discussions I had never heard the term “Dropping the Hip”. I had to ask what was going on that required dropping the hip and what the little formulas for dropping the hip were adjusting for. The method I’ve been using always fit perfect, so “Hip Drop” was new to me.
As I understand the “hip drop” these days it is an adjustment to make the hip plane. The reason this adjustment has to be made is because the “Diamond Cut” has been performed at the ridge end of the Hip prior to measuring the length and marking the “heel stand”, or “birdsmouth” with the same HAP as the commons. The reason I have never had to adjust my HAP or Heel cut from the standard is because I mark the Hip’s dimension on the board without pre-cutting the Diamond. If done like that you don’t have to make a corrective adjustment to make the thing fit right.
I don’t drop my hips! I cut them to fit properly the first time! I use the dimension calculated for the Hip from/for the same effective run as I use to calculate the common’s length.
I simply mark it and cut it. Just like the commons but with a diamond cut at the ridge.
It’s in the “Blue Book”. They only show the Hips being cut with a single cheek cut but the mark the board on the side. Because of the way I layout my roofs I need to perform a double cheek cut. But there is no dropping done either way.
On page 67 of Will Holladay’s “ A Roof Cutters Secrets” He makes a very interesting comment about the term “dropping a hip”. Then he gets confusing about how to eliminate the need for it. Read it for yourself, I know you have his book.
I had to buy all these Roof Cutting books to be able to understand what and why you guys were saying the things you say. I have books or articles by Holladay, Mussel, Gross, Haun, Dunkley, and McBride just to name a few.
Btw. If you mark your hips and valleys on there sides and cut them as I do the thickness of the valley will be irrelevant, except….except as to the capacity of the saw you use to make the cuts. For regular pitch 1 ½” thick hips the 7 ¼” saws work fine.
Take care Tim,
Richard
Semantics, semantics. Dropping the hip does NOT mean you are cutting the hip twice. It does NOT mean that you didn't cut it right the first time. Dropping the hip is an expression to indicate the Height-Above-Plate on a hip rafter DOES NOT occur at the vertical leg of the seat-cut, as it does on a Common Rafter. Rather, the dimension at the vertical leg of a hip-rafter seat-cut is smaller, hence a "dropped" hip. It is a valid concept recognized by the masters of this trade for generations. The distance between the vertical leg of the seat cut and the vertical H.A.P. line is a function of the width of the hip rafter, if you want your hip rafter to plane in with the common rafters along its edge. As they say in Hawaii - You pushin' my leg, brah?
Richard,
I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way. I have a tremendous about of respect for you and your experience and the last thing I want to do is sound like a jerk. In my opinion, all roof discussions are beneficial for me and hopefully others.
Now I have to say "I love you man" :-)
After Richard marks the length of his hip from his HAP cut line to his Plumbcut line you will see in the picture he then makes a pass with his saw set at 45° and flips it over and makes another pas at 45° therefore creating a diamond cut and cutting off 3/4" plumb off his original mark which is his adjustment whether he wants to admit it or not.You would think that it shortens the hip but it doesn't because he over cuts the seatcut 2" past his HAP line so that when he puts his hip up he slides it into place and that lets his HAP line slide in 3/4" plumb so that HAP sits correctly on the top plates at the same point as the Common HAP cut. It will not line up at the outside corner where as when I cut it and I'm sure others do that seatcut is not over cut and it butts up against the outside corner and my HAP line up with the outside corner unlike Richards.I cut a hip like him 1-1/2 years ago. It's very simple no different or faster it's just that his adjustment is at the top. You will see in the picture where his HAP line sits when I nailed the hip in place. It hits the plate not the outside corner.Joe Carola
Joe C.
Those are some really great photos. I don't remember seeing them before. I have saved them to file. Thanks.
I see Joe Fusco has popped in for a quick comment. Happy New Year to you Joe. I hope you are not going to just "fence sit" this one out. I have always enjoyed and respected your comments. Btw. I'm only responsible for a few hundred of those 6000 prior posts.
All,
As Joe F. suggest, a search should bring up a lot of previous discussions on cutting Hips and Valleys and how to make them plane. Overwhelming actually.
Huck,
By all that is written by various authors on the subject it does indeed seem that “Dropping the Hip” is an industry standard.
This is a quote from Will Holladay, “I do not use or like the term” dropping a hip.” It is an extremely confusing and misleading expression. No board is “dropped,”………..(Page 67, footnote, “A Roof Cutter’s Secrets”.)
I have to get to work this morning. It’s going to be near 80 today. Got to go put my shorts on. See ya’ll latter.
Richard
Richard,
80°!! Man, it's been 25° here in the morning. I know it's colder for some other guys, but boy would I love to be working in shorts right now :-)
Our site is full of snow, so of course, we had many a snowball fight yesterday. Jasen and I loaded up the platform baskets with snowballs because we were up siding a gable end with HardiShakes and were at the mercy of the other guys.
Best shot of the day was when Matt looked away and never saw the snowball Jasen launched. Almost got him between the legs, just missed. Poor Matt went down :-) hahahahahahaah
Tim,
Did you change your name to"unknown"?
We are in for some big changes in temperatures by the weekend. The forecast says low 20's. It will not likely snow as it never does. I'll start the day in shorts but by noon I'll hve my Carrharts on.
I'll be back to continue the Hip/Val discussion later.
Joe C.
I like your pics. Keep'm com'n.
Joe F.
Same old Joe. When's the last time you cut a roof?
Blue,
Just because your wearing a blindfold doesn't mean you are suposed to close your eyes too! (It's just for show.) I can sense your amusement.
Richard, aka Mr Jalp
I knew a guy who told me once that he was doing it "his way" for 30 years. . . My reply was yes and doing it wrong. . . Reminds me of you a bit.As for cutting a roof, well not in a long time, but I plan on cutting my own in about three weeks and I won't be employing the "Birch Method" when I do.
Joe,Are you looking forward to cutting the roof? I bet you are :-) Take lots of pics. I hope it goes well for you.
Tim,I'm going to give it my best shot ;-).
Edited 1/13/2005 5:57 am ET by Joe
Richard,I think I've spoke enough about hip drop both vertical and as you like to cut horizontal.I'll just re-post the graphic I did . . .
Thanks for the great illustrations photos and explanations.
"When I am done cutting my hips or valleys they are the same dimension at there centers that they were at their sides before I make the cuts."You just said it right there Richard. They will measure the same at the centers as they did measure at the sides BEFORE you made your cut. That's my point that I've been trying to tell you. Once you've made your plumb cut the way you do you have cut off 3/4" plumb..it's in your own drawing so therefore when you go back and measure your hip length from your ORIGINAL HAP cut line on the side to your ORIGINAL PLUMBCUT line...it's not ther it's gone....it's 3/4" back.your original line is imaginary just like you show in your drawing. So that's your ADJUSTMENT...Can't you admit to me that when you cut your plumbcut that you are cutting back 3/4" plumb off of it and that it will change your original HAP line and Plumbcut line and hip length to that line.What you are doing is when you nail your hip in your HAP line doesn't hit the outside corner it's in 3/4" plumbcut lining up with the outside plate with the common HAP. DON'T YOU SEE THIS????????????Your centers will always measure the right hip length as you marked on the sides but once you've cut your plumbcut YOUR MEASUREMENT ON THE SIDE FROM THE HAP TO THE PLUMBCUT IS GONE .IT'S NOT THE SAME IT'S 3/4" BACK PLUMB.....THAT'S YOUR ADJUSTMENT.Richard I don't need the Swanson book to tell me that when you cut the plumbcut the way you do you are taking off 3/4" plumb whether you diamond cut it or just make a simple 45° cut.In my first drawing I put the new hip length measurement in the wrong spot so here's a new drawing.Joe Carola
2 new guys, 6 old guys and the same old topic. . . I think there are 6000 posts on this topic, do a search ;-)
I've been playing in the paint box. The H.A.P. on the hip does not occur at the vertical leg of the seat-cut, like it does on a jack rafter or common rafter.
View Image
Huck, your pic assumes that everyone makes square cuts on that vertical cut at the outside wall line of the hip. I the job called for exposed rafters, that cut would be incorrect.
YOu picture also assumes that the top of the hip is not beveled. If it was beveled, your haps would be equal.
I don't know what all this means...but I do know that the entire debate is misdirected. In order to shorten the debate, the participants should first decide on a common definition about the terms being discussed. After agreeing on the definitions, there wouldn't/couldn't be any debate!
I think it safe to say that everyone must drop the hip, or bevel it, or measure it from different starting points to achieve the same objective....planing the roof sheathing so that it's flat.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
No assumptions, just a graphic to show what I've been saying. (it took a little head-scratching to put that little ditty together, by the way, and a little more to figure out how to get it to show up without a link). The difference in height between the line above the plumb-cut and the H.A.P. line represent the hip's "drop". You can bevel your hip if you want, it doesn't alter the H.A.P. nor the importance of it's occurence along the edge of the hip, at all. The example shown works just fine for exposed rafter tails, unless you're not going to cover the exterior of your walls, in which case your house has more serious design problems than just the roof-cuts. (by the time you sheath the walls and add your frieze blocks, the corner gets buried).I don't consider it a "debate" per se, nor even misdirected. Its a bull-session. Roof-cutting calls for focus and a good grasp of the geometry involved, chewing the fat over hip-drops is as good a way as any to keep the mental gears oiled."drop your hip and walk away from that roof, and no one gets hurt..."
Edited 1/12/2005 8:12 pm ET by Huck
Huck,If you follow the ideas in point to point center line framing then any hip and valley rafter’s HAP line lays at the outside edge of the plate just as do the commons.Dropping the hip effectively moves the hip down to allow its edges to move to a position either at or below the roof plane. If you bevel the edges there is no need to drop the hip or alter its position at all thus keeping the HAP the same as the commons.
Joe,
Check your hotmail account. I sent you an email this morning about a project. Didn't meant to put this here :-)
Huck,
Nice Paint Job.
The line in your pic showing the HAP is where the line I mark on the side of the board is when it is installed. Just like in Joe C.’s photos of the hip he cut and installed using my method. If you just mark it on the side and “then” cut it, it fits like your pic of the heel on the corner. If cut from marks on the side with the same HAP as the commons then it fits correctly and there is no “Hip Drop” considerations. The bevels for valleys are reversed and the “apparent” HAP is “raised” to plane at the tops of the valley jacks. If you cut your valley by hooking and marking the length at that point then the jacks plane to the center of the valley. I personally like to have the jacks plane a little tight on the valleys. That is just the way I prefer my decking to fit. So I cut my valley to plane somewhere between the center and the sides of the valley.
If you were to think of the Hip or Valley suspended in space and it is on pitch and positioned where it will finally rest (in relation to a roof) and the wall lines are vertical circular saws and the side and end of the ridge are circular saws too. The planes move through the wood and cut the board to fit. That is essentially how I cut these rafters. Because the house moves through the wood and shows me the lines to cut I do not consider there to be any adjustments made, no dropping, or shifting, or adjusting. Just cut to fit.
Does that make any sense?
Richard
If you were to think of the Hip or Valley suspended in space and it is on pitch and positioned where it will finally rest (in relation to a roof) and the wall lines are vertical circular saws and the side and end of the ridge are circular saws too. The planes move through the wood and cut the board to fit. That is essentially how I cut these rafters. Because the house moves through the wood and shows me the lines to cut I do not consider there to be any adjustments made, no dropping, or shifting, or adjusting. Just cut to fit. Does that make any sense?
Sure that makes sense, because that is what any of us are doing whenever we cut a board to fit. We're visualizing the intersecting planes as being our saw blade.
But roof-cutting manuals are not made for roof-cutting experts. They're made to guide the uninitiated through the process. The unititiated wants to cut the hip/valley seat-cut with a H.A.P. measurement at the plumb cut line, like a common or a jack rafter. The term "dropping" the hip was coined to alert the neophyte that the hip/valley wants to be lower than if you measured the H.A.P. at the plumb cut. Its a way of saying "hips and valleys are different than the other rafters, make sure you watch for this, and cut them lower than if the H.A.P. occured at the plumb cut."
It is not a term that refers to cutting them twice, or cutting them wrong the first time and right the second time, or higher the first time and then lower the second time.
Does what I am saying make sense to you?
By the way, thanks for the compliment on my drawing. It may look simple but it taxed my finite little brain to put it together!
Edited 1/12/2005 10:11 pm ET by Huck
Huck,
Your right! The method I use is not found in most books. The only book I have found it in is the Swanson’s “Blue Book”. I have to consider myself lucky not to have read the other “Books for neophyte Roof Cutters”. We would not be having this great discussion if I had. I might be “Blinded” by the books like some others here.
I have not said that the methods that include the “Hip Drop” adjustments do not work. I have said that it is unnecessary to do it. The concept to me was comical when I first heard it. Having to do an addition mathematical calculation to lower the heel at the birds mouth. That is an unnecessary corrective process. It creates confusion and screws with the math. (up, down, back and forth? Wtf?)
The thing that the Blue Book does not go into at depth is the Irregular Pitched Roof. I have found that using the same method to cut Ireg Hips/Vals will automatically plane these rafters at both the ridge and the walls perfectly without any additional confusing corrective processes. In my mind, that’s a Cool Biggy!
No mess, no fuss. Just mark, Cut, and Fit!
Richard
Richard,You said, "Richard, You said, "Please go buy the Swanson's Blue Book and read the short description on cutting the the Hip. The method they show does not make and adjustments or drops. It fits perfect as they cut theirs." I did get a book and responded to you in this post, http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=52365.56Your only responce is nice pictures keep them coming. Do you have a responce to my post or are you going to avoid it?You keep telling everyone how your hip fits in perfectly without making any adjustments and your own Swanson book shows that you have to make an ajustment and I cut the hip the way you do and the only way your hip fits is if you over cut the seat cut past your HAP line like you do but you don't have to over cut it 2" you would only have to over cut it 3/4" or cut off the oustide corner of the top plate 3/4" (like your Swanson book tells you too) or put a V cut in it.Can you answer these questions.1)Once you've cut your hip, will you still have the same hip length from your HAP line to the center of the diamond cut?2)You figure the run of common rafter to the outside of the plate at 12" so that your run for the hip would be figured from the outside of the plate which is the outside corner to make a triangle your hip run is 16.97" or 17" Right so far. When you nail your hip in place and your HAP line is position at the plate as shown in my picture when I cut the hip........is your hip run still 17"?3) If you don't over cut your seatcut 2" and just carry your HAP line straight down and cut it there will your hip fit?4) Can you admit that when your done cutting your plumbcut line which is your hip length that it does shorten it 3/4 plumb? Joe Carola
Joe C.,
You are confusing the issue of planning the Hip/Val with clearance for the corner and sheathing at the tail. I don’t believe that the “Hip Drop” cares if the rafters have a tail or not.
Btw, nice pictures.
Richard
Can you answer these questions.1)Once you've cut your hip, will you still have the same hip length from your HAP line to the center of the diamond cut?2)You figure the run of common rafter to the outside of the plate at 12" so that your run for the hip would be figured from the outside of the plate which is the outside corner to make a triangle your hip run is 16.97" or 17" Right so far. When you nail your hip in place and your HAP line is position at the plate as shown in my picture when I cut the hip........is your hip run still 17"?3) If you don't over cut your seatcut 2" and just carry your HAP line straight down and cut it there will your hip fit?4) Can you admit that when your done cutting your plumbcut line which is your hip length that it does shorten it 3/4 plumb? Your resonce is," You are confusing the issue of planning the Hip/Val with clearance for the corner and sheathing at the tail. I don’t believe that the “Hip Drop” cares if the rafters have a tail or not.""Btw, nice pictures."I'm surprised at you Richard that you can't step up to the plate and answer a few simple questions and then respond back with a ridiculous post that makes no sense and keep telling people about your Swanson book when It clearly shows that you have to ajust something.Why can't you just answer the questions?Can you at least answer this question.If you don't over cut your seatcut 2" and just carry your HAP line straight down and cut it there will your hip fit?Joe Carola
Richard,What about page 22 in your Swanson book, any comments?Joe Carola
So I'm curious: How do you (or anyone else who cares to reply) calculate the angles for bevelling your hip/val, and the angles on your frieze blocks and fascia at the hip/val? Does anyone use math (or anything other than fit-and-mark) to calculate the angle to cut your sheathing for the valleys?
Yes Huck. I prefer to know the actual numbers for valley cuts. I also use a valley cutting stick that speeds up that process in a big way.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Your cut stick idea has helped us big time as far as speed goes. Thanks again for posting that.
Tim that is a clever little trick and I wish I had learned about that thirty years ago!
I saw in another thread that you were able to frame a octogon roof faster alone than the others did it with two guys. That is not uncommon, in many routine jobs on a rough frame. It takes a very c0-ordinated effort to overcome the inevitable standing around time when two guys work together.
I've been working with Frank on the tables again and I notice that we are not very co-ordinated and we waste a lot of time...well we waste some time.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Huck,Anyway you want them. . . Calculator, Construction Master or Framing Square. . .
Joe, I'm curious about the formula that is used to compute the bevel cut on top of a hip. If memory serves me correctly, we were taught the method in carpenter school using a framing square but since I don't normally bevel them, I can't remember the formula.
Can you help me remember it or just explain it?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,You can see the formulas at the link below of for regular hips.http://www.josephfusco.org/Tips/tip0011.htmlThe equations are at the tops of each columns
"Anyway you want them. . . Calculator, Construction Master or Framing Square."
huh?????
Huck,
Ken Drake sent me a drawing that is second to one a couple of years ago. Here is is. I always calculate the night before the angles for the birdblocks and sheathing. I don't like the trial and error or cut to fit, especially on octagons or bays. Takes too long. When he first sent me the drawing, I calculated a partial octagon roof and the birdblock numbers and framed it in half the time as the other one next to it. The other one had 2 framers and I worked by myself. Saved a ton of time.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80833169.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80833164.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80833171.jpg
I prefer to draw it out when I do it. Joe Carola and Joe Fusco have each given me forumlas, but I'm still trying to learn the "whys". I haven't had much time this last year to get into as much trig as I would like. Maybe in 2005?
Hope this helps.
**edit** I didn't mention the sheathing cuts or bevels. I use the formulas Joe Fusco gave me. (thanks again Joe) I will have to find them. I'd post them from my memory, but everytime I do, I get it wrong and feel/look really. . . . . . . .
Edited 1/13/2005 8:12 pm ET by TIMUHLER
Thanks for the pics, they're great (even 'though I didn't understand them!). I have never framed an octagon, I can see where things can get a little tricky. The other thing that seems a little tricky is where an octagon planes in with the rest of the roof.FHB had an article awhile back on adding a second hip on angled bays, but it was pretty esoteric. The photos in the article were great, 'tho, and more valuable than the text (to me), which I never was able to make heads or tails of.When I was teaching myself production cutting of complex roofs, I learned to make a simple poster-board mock-up of the all angles, it saved me tons of time. (I remember the first time I had to hang fascia, with square-cut tails, on a 5:12 hip, and the frustration I experienced at the corner miters.) If I get some time, I'll make one of the mock-ups, and post some pics...if anyone else is interested.
Huck, the first time I framed an octogon roof that termnated against the wall, I spent several hours figuring the rafter lengths and calculating and figuring and calculating and when the roof was done, it looked nice.
Now, when I frame an octogon, I scale the ridge height, lay a board where I want it and eyeball the hips in. I can now frame an octogon in in five minutes! Add another five if I have to "swoop" the roof! Oh yeah.....when the roof is done now, it looks nice too!
It's amazing how much time I spent figuring stuffout in my earlier days!
bllue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Huck,
I usually grab a piece of ply and draw out the angles so that when I'm cutting, I don't get too confused. It really does make a difference.
Of square cut tails and the miter/bevel at the hip, you can buy The Roof Framer's Bible. It has all the numbers in there. I have a copy in the truck. I don't like to use it until I have attempted to figure the stuff out myself. It is good to have though as a check.
Huck,
Joe Carola first started posting a few years ago at JLC about that very same issue. Unless all 3 walls (2 that are angled and the front ) are the same length, then the pitches of some will have to change. I won't get into it because I have to go now, but if you ever run into that situation, post it here. Joe C and Joe F helped me through it.
Here is the octagon I was talking about and another one explaining how to get the ply cut on an irregular roof.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80848950.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/80848962.jpg
Edited 1/13/2005 9:58 pm ET by TIMUHLER
Joe Carola,
Fig 6, (page 21 in my book), in the Blue Book just shows tail clearance. You’ve seen how I handle that issue. Fig. 4, on page 19, shows the single cheek cut with rafter length simply applied to the side of the board. This can be simply modified to be a diamond cut at the top. Cut the same line from both sides of the board. The Blue Book does not mention any height adjustments that are corrective measures to make the rafter plane. It does the heel cut interfering with the proper fit if cut as they show. But if you follow their instructions and cut this tail cut clearance (Fig, 6) then the original HAP mark will line up and plane properly at the heel as shown in Huck’s picture and also on the Hip pictures you took of the Hip, cut and fit, using my method.
Btw, since you brought it up, how do you provide corner and sheathing clearance on your hips? Or do you cut your sheathing around them?
You said, "It does the heel cut interfering with the proper fit if cut as they show. But if you follow their instructions and cut this tail cut clearance (Fig, 6) then the original HAP mark will line up and plane properly at the heel as shown in Huck’s picture and also on the Hip pictures you took of the Hip, cut and fit, using my method."Richard, your telling me something I already know and have known. Your response sounds as if I was asking you those questions because I didn't know the answer.I always knew the answer.You just figured it out know BRAVO!Have you looked at my drawings they all told you the same thing Huck's drawing did. It's nothing knew for me. I know the HAP lines up where it does but you didn't.Now you see what I've been trying to tell you all along that when you mark the length of your hip that's figured from the outside corner and when you mark your HAP line and then you mark your plumbcut line once you've cut it you've taken off 3/4" so therefore you slide the HAP line in 3/4" which is a run and a rise so that it sits flush with the wall at the same point as the common HAP and that planes everything in. I've said this a million times and even showed you the hip I cut. Like I asked you before If you don't over cut your seatcut your hip wont fit or you would have to cut the corner off or cut a V.This drawing that I'm posting is one of the few that I have posted that tells you everything and the same way Hucks drawing is.If you look at the first drawing on the left at the top you will see a little blue triangle coming in the 3/4" and creating a little rise. The height of the rise is the Hip Drop as most people know it because it's done at the HAP. You never realized that you were creating a hip drop because your cutting the 3/4" off the plumbcut and 2" back on your seatcut which is correct but that's also you ADJUSTMENT because you two lines that you marked for your hip length are not the same.No one ever said Hip Drop is the correct word but wether you call it a Hip Drop or not you me and everyone else who cuts a hip is adjusting it some how.Joe Carola
Joe C.
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Again, great pictures! You are good!
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Joe, We may or may not be arguing semantics here, but I still disagree. I want to thank you for spending the effort you have in debating me. You’re good at that too. You are just missing the concept of the “Birch Method” though.
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Said simply; I use the “Blue Book’s” “One Number Method”. I have advanced the method by applying it to Irregulars. You have to admit, the Swanson’s Blue Book leaves a lot to be desired in a book on how to cut roofs. It’s just pathetic. You’d think that one of the world’s largest producers of squares would be able to do better in the Guide Book department. But non-the less, I learned how to cut Hip/Val rafters from this book around 25 years ago. Over the years I have advanced the method to include the Irregular pitched roof. This method does not include any corrective measures, (other than tail clearance, which is not the same as the Hip Drop adjustment). This method installs the hip with the actual HAP line on the wall line to plane properly as in your pics.
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Take a look at the Blue Book again. If you cut the top cut of the hip with a single cheek cut, when you install it the short point side will plane with the king common rafter’s edge and the long point side will plane with the ridge. The length of their hip is marked from long point to short point of the Hip/Val pitch and it is also marked from long point to short point of the beveled cheek cuts. I describe this cut as being from “long to short, long to short”. I do not usually cut the short point of the beveled cheek cut at the bottom of the hip as it usually has a tail. If it did not have a tail then the cuts at the bottom would be a diamond cut that the cheek cuts would be flush and in plane with the vertical faces of the walls. These short points of these bevels are the HAP line. I consider them as Hypothetical since I don’t usually make them. When cutting a broken hip I mark and cut them in the same way, as the regular hip except for the seat cut is not included.
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I have attached a couple of AutoCAD drawings with some more explanations. I think you have seen this before. Keep reviewing the other pictures I have posted here Joe. They show the concept I am talking about.
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Joe, When I am done cutting my Hips and Valleys they measure at their centers what they were marked at their sides and when installed, the HAP lines, line up on the walls. No corrective measures, no adjustments. Just perfect fits, every time!
Richard
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Richard,I forgot to tell you how I cut for the sheathing. I just make a notch on the Heel about 5/8" - 3/4".That will be the first drawing and the second drawing is the plan view of your hip.Joe Carola
I have one more pic. I can't get it to load
Richard,I'm not missing the concept of your method. I cut the hip the way you did. What your missing is the fact that if you don't OVER CUT YOUR SEATCUT your hip and the way the Swanson book shows you will NOT FIT.First all I don't and I'm sure you don't need the Swanson book or any other book to tell me that when you cut the plumbcut line that is marked as the hip length that you've just shortened the center point by 3/4" whether you make the diamond cut or not you've shortened it.The only way to make it fit without over cutting the seatcut like I do would be to do as I do and extend the plumnbcut line 3/4" plumb so that when I cut the 45° it slices right at the center of the hip and at the same hip length line plumbcut that I marked the first time and my HAP is already adjusted for that.The way you do it you cut the hip length line plumbcut which shortens it but where you make up for it is at your seatcut by over cutting it which allows it to slide in place and plane in correctly which you have said and I have said.What you seem to keep missing is that your cutting off 3/4" off the plumbcut and shortening it.What you also keep missing is that your hip will not fit if you don't over cut your seatcut. Richard, You said, "Joe, When I am done cutting my Hips and Valleys they measure at their centers what they were marked at their sides and when installed, the HAP lines, line up on the walls. No corrective measures, no adjustments. Just perfect fits, every time!"Your wrong. You are making an adjustment because your OVER CUTTING YOUR SEATCUT.....that is your adjustment. Cut it at the HAP line and it wont fit. I also know that when you measure your centers they will measure the same as the hip length should be but your two original marks wont measure the same because the plumbcut is gone.......it's laying on the ground becasue once you've made your second cut for the diamond cut you cut it off by 3/4".Richard can you just answer this question again that I already no what the answer is.Will your hip fit if you don't over cut the seatcut or cut out the corner or put a V cut in it, yes or no? Here's a picture of what I described above of your way and my way without OVER CUTTING the seatcut.It's named it Joe and Richard Hip so it doesn't mean we're a couple.........;-)
Edited 1/15/2005 3:49 am ET by Framer
Joe C.
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That is not a good picture. You are also putting words in my mouth that I have not said with some of your illustrations. You are not reading my post. You are not studying my illustrations. And your last picture proves that you still don’t get it.
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I describe a Hip/Val’s length and cuts (as seen from their sides) with the terms, “long to short, long to short” (Pitch first, bevels second). Not long to square, or diamond to square, as your illustrations are depicting.
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I’ll try again later to post the detail of the hips and valleys relationship to the walls and ridge. If I can’t get it to load then I’ll send it to you direct and then maybe you could post it for me.
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Have a great day. I’ll be back.
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Richard
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Richard,All I can say is HOLY SH!T!Can't you just answer a question. You can't because your scared to admit that your hip will not fit if you don't OVER CUT your seatcut.At least I can adapt to doing things a different way and understand them unlike you. You said, "I describe a Hip/Val’s length and cuts (as seen from their sides) with the terms, “long to short, long to short” (Pitch first, bevels second). Not long to square, or diamond to square, as your illustrations are depicting."I am talking about it so can you answer the question again can...... will your hip fit without over cutting the seatcut??????????Richard any idiot knows that if you mark your HAP line and Plumbcut which is long to short line and then cut them at a 45° and then flip it over and cut the second 45° it makes a diamond cut at the top and bottom the points from diamond to diamond will measure the same as your hip length marks but that's not what your doing unless you have NO OVERHANG. Also any idiot knows that when you mark those two side marks they are long to short..........NO SH!T! I've cut hips like that before it doesn't confuse me. Why don't you try and do it my way or is it to confusing.The problem with you is that your not listening because you just don't get it or you just don't want to admit that if you don't over cut the seatcut your hip will not fit and therefore you will have to admit that there is an adjustment. If thta's the case I'm very surprised at you because we're all here to help eachother or show eachother new techniqes and compare tecniques which I'm always willig to do.I explained this to you the first time I talked on the phone and over these forums and you still don't get it.How about this Richard because I'm running out of simple drawings for you to pick this up which I will post more. Since I physically cut the hip for you on a job your way which is not special and I didn't need to cut one to see if it would work why don't you take a 2x4 or 2x6 I'm sure you might have one somewhere and cut a hip like you do not even like me BUT DON'T OVER CUT THE SEATCUT and see if it fits.Joe Carola
Joe C.<!----><!---->
Here is what you asked for. A Hip cut with no adjustments made fitting at the corner. The number of the pic corresponds to the progression in cuts as presented.<!---->
The Birds mouth is cut with the miter angles that the HAP lines really represent. (which are parallel to the cheek cuts at the top. This not an easy cut and most carpenters just cut square here. I just cut extra clearance for the corner and sheathing with the saw set square. But that is not the Issue.<!---->
The Issue is that you do not have to take into consideration a “Hip Drop” correction to make these rafters fit. You just have to know what’s going on with the parallel planes that are the walls and the side and end of the ridge.<!---->
Richard<!---->
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I said this to you, " I cut the hip the way you do and the only way your hip fits is if you over cut the seat cut past your HAP line like you do but you don't have to over cut it 2" you would only have to over cut it 3/4" or cut off the oustide corner of the top plate 3/4" (like your Swanson book tells you too) or put a V cut in it."I appreciate the fact that you cut the hip and posted the pictures and this is what you said in your last post, "Here is what you asked for. A Hip cut with no adjustments made fitting at the corner. The number of the pic corresponds to the progression in cuts as presented."I'm sorry to say Richard that I didn't ask for you to cut the V cut out of the HEEL cut like you did I told you not to cut the corner out or V cut it..... so you just Adjusted it. I asked you to cut it like you always do and that's square without over cutting your seat cut 2".I said don't over cut the seatcut or V cut the Heel and see if your hip would fit and I've told you that it wouldn't because it would be short 3/4" and the only way that it would fit would be to cut the corner out or put a V in it and it would fit and plane in correctly.I'm glad that you did cut the V out at the Heel because you've just proved what I've been telling you all the time that the way you cut your plumbcut you would need to cut the V in the Heel like you did because if you cut that Heel square like I asked you to it wouldn't have fit.Now you see what I'm talking about in your case you don't see it as a Hip Drop it's just sliding it forward to plane in because your cutting off 3/4" off your plumbcut and 2" over cutting the seatcut or like you did today cutting the V out of the Heel so naturally you wouldn't view what you do as a Hip Drop.I also keep telling you that the way you cut it the hip length will change if you measure from the plumbcut diamond to your HAP mark but it wont change if you measure from your plumbcut diamond to the outside corner diamond that's 3/4" past [lumb from your HAP mark if there were no overhang or even if there was.Joe Carola
Edited 1/15/2005 11:28 pm ET by Framer
Richard,
How do you mark your regular hips if you are going to bevel the tops? Do you change the way you layout the hip at all? What about valleys?
I for one am just glad that roof framing is being discussed :-)
Tim,
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I have only found it necessary to bevel a couple of irregular valleys in my lengthily career. I have never beveled a hip. But if I were to do so I would bevel it first so that the short points of the bevels are located perpendicularly to each other the same way that the corners of an unbeveled hip already are. This is true for Irregular pitched Hip/Vals too. Then the marking and cutting process will be the same as usual. The only real adjustment I make when figuring my rafters is the removal of the ridge from the run to find the effective run. Once this is done the Common’s, Hip’s, and Valley’s lengths can be determined from the effective run. Jack’s lengths have an adjusted effective run due to the thickness of the Hip or Valley but the Hip’s/Val’s thickness is irrelevant to marking and cutting them (h/v)because they are self centering.
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I would like to ask you to do something for me. I know you frame enough homes a year to be able to do this with out much problem. But the next time you cut a pair of Hips for a full hip system. Cut one your way and cut the other one my way and see if they don’t come out to be the same effective length. The one thing I’m sure you’ll notice is that the marking and cutting of the hip will be simpler my way. Of course the other thing is they will be the same length.
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Valley cheek-cut bevels are performed in the opposite direction of a hip. The bottom line (HAP) is the long point of the hypothetical cheek-cut bevels and the top mark will be the short point of the bevels cut. This will plane the valley jacks so the top of the jacks will be nailed flush at the top of the valley. I usually lower it a little as to have my sheathing very tight to the valley top but not bulge or push the valley up. If you want the valley to plane to center then the way you are already doing it does that.
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I know that these explanations are new and different to most of the reader here on this forum. I’ve had a heck of a time trying to show/explain this concept/general idea of my method. I still believe that once you grasp what I am saying you will see the other benefits that this method provides. It really does simplify complicated cut-up multiple-pitch hip/val roofs.
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I hope I have made myself better understood.
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Richard
PS Here is the other file I could not get to upload. I had to reduce it's file size a lot. I hope it is readable.
Richard,It’s still good to know that you have the same “flair” as you did in the past. Didn’t you beat this topic to a pulp the last time it went round and round? If you still can’t see that the way you cut the hip causes it to plane in, well then that seems like it’s a personal issue.As far as your method for cutting irregular hips it worked OK as well but, it had a problem as the hips got wider. As I recall the center of the hip shifted a bit much from center.Well the one good thing about this discussion is it’s making me go through all the old (very old) drawing I did. . .
Joe Fusco,
I definitely think “outside the box” when it comes to this issue.
“It’s still good to know that you have the same “flair” as you did in the past. Didn’t you beat this topic to a pulp the last time it went round and round? If you still can’t see that the way you cut the hip causes it to plane in, well then that seems like it’s a personal issue.” <!----><!---->
I am glad that you have rejoined this discussion. Yes, we beat this horse to a pulp two years ago. I call this horse “Hip Drop” and I want to slay it and send it to the Dog Food Cannery once and forever. If it seems like a personal issue it may be that’s because I am somewhat alone on this side of the debate on these forums.
Joe Carola has confused the issue of cutting clearance at the tail with “Sliding and Shifting” (as the “Hip Drop” method does). He is missing the point of the concept I am talking about. The majority of the other authors on this subject also has missed this concept and has created a mountain of confusion. (Will Holladay is the only author I’ve found that directly speaks of this confusion.) They explain a corrective process that slides, or shifts, or drops, the rafter back into plane. As I understand it, the “Hip Drop” makes a correction at the HAP or Heel cut of the Hip.
“As far as your method for cutting irregular hips it worked OK as well but, it had a problem as the hips got wider. As I recall the center of the hip shifted a bit much from center.”<!---->
Your statement above may be the direction to take to better understand the concept I am trying to explain. Let’s talk about Irregulars. The method/concept I use works for the Ireg. Hip/Val too. It will automatically “place” the square topped h/v rafters on the plates and at the ridge in plane. Since this centering of these rafters is automatic. The thickness of the h/v rafters is not a concern to its’ marking, but it is a concern as to the capacity of the saw that will make the cuts. The saw should be at least 8” or better and have the capability to make bevels well past the standard 45 degrees.
In order for this automatic centering phenomenon to occur you must have the long points of the cheek cut perpendicularly located to each other across the top of the rafters and the same applies to the short points. (We both know that with irregs that it is not actually centered but proportionately offset to plane, without beveling, at the top.) Now this is where there is a little more to understand. While both the iregg Hip and Valley are marked long to short of the pitch cuts, the bevels are reversed for each rafter. The bevels on the Hip are perpendicular at the top and the short points are perpendicular at the bottom/heel. On the valley, the long points of the bevels are perpendicular at the heel and short points at the top. The same HAP is marked on both Hip and Val and when cut there will be an apparent difference in height of the two different heel stands. They both will plane at the tops of their jacks; Hip jacks flush at the top of the Hip and Valley jacks at the top of the valley. This is where I bevel the irregular valley as I told Tim U. It will take care of the problem of telling the help where to measure the decking too in the valleys since it is not supposed to split the valley equally. I deck the steep side first since it will have less valley meat to catch. I have only put in a handful of irregular valleys like this as I frame California style overlay irregular valleys whenever I can.
When you make the cheek-cut bevels as I have described the saw blade is following the planes of the walls and of the ridge. It is virtually cut in place and viewed in this way there is no shifting or adjusting necessary.
You made a snide comment about cutting the roof on your own new home coming up in the near future and not employing the “Birch Method”. This will be your loss as you have an opportunity to learn something new. With all the tricks and methods you talk about and share on you personal website it seems a shame that you would ignore this.
Good luck anyway. I know that your roof will still turn out perfect. My side of this debate has been that if marked and cut the way I describe the “Hip Drop” corrective adjustments are unnecessary.
E be de, ebd, ebd, …..That’s all Folks!
Yours truly,
Richard Birch
Richard,Did I ever tell you how much I dislike long verbiage? What are you talking about saws when the saw has nothing to do with where the centerline winds up if you cut an irregular hip using the “Birch Method”I’ll cut the hip with a hand saw if I need to and the centerline will still be where it is. It’s just this type “talk” from you that makes it difficult at best to have a meaning ful discussion with you about this. I did about 10 drawings to show this and you still just don’t get it. Joe C. has pointed it out to you and you want to make like “he/we” don’t get it.We get it, we just don’t see it the same way you do.P.S. I’m never snide, I say just the hell what I want too.Joe.
Edited 1/16/2005 6:40 pm ET by Joe
joe... did you get my email ?.. last week ?..
mfsmith1 AT cox.net
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Richard, you said, "Joe Carola has confused the issue of cutting clearance at the tail with “Sliding and Shifting” (as the “Hip Drop” method does). He is missing the point of the concept I am talking about."Your posts are about as Stupid as Stupid gets. Your concept is Sh!t. I'm not missing a thing. I've shown you post after post picture after picture that you do make an ADJUSTMENT. I've asked you the simplest questions that you don't answer. I've shown you that your own Swanson book shows and ADJUSTMENT which you wont admit.You say that you cut it like the Swanson book when you don't. You make an ADJUSTMENT in your seatcut by over cutting it 2" so that you hip will fit. I've told you and showed you that your hip will be to short if you don't ADJUST it like you always have for 25 years.I've asked you a hundred times what your hip will measure from your plumbcut to your HAP cut because I know it will be short 3/4" plumb and you wont answer. You keep telling me that it measures the same from center to center as it does from side to side which any IDIOT knows before you make your cut.I've told you a hundred times to cut the hip the way you do without cutting the outside corner of the plate or cutting a V cut in the HEEL and tell me if it fits but I know it wont fit unless you do cut the outside corner or cut a V in it. So what do you do you cut a hip with a V in like.I've shown you a thousand times that you are wrong when you say there's no adjustment when anay IDIOT cam see that when your HAP line planes in with the outside plat you have a little 3/4" run with a small amount of rise that would create a hight to plane the hip into place but you don't get it.You must smoke something out there in Texas because you still tell people how cool it that you have some kind of special way to cut a hip that there's no adjustment at all that a hip has to do to plane in with a common when everyone one in the world knows that a hip is different then a common rafter and some sort of drop or adjustment has to happen for it to plane in.Yet you come back and say my method no adjustment bing bang boom fits right in when you ADJUST your hip every time.You sound like some kind of PSYCHO who's trying to get noticed for something that means nothing and isn't any different then anything else and you've been proven wrong a million tomes. You also act like the story Maveric told in Jeff Bucks Bar Room Fight thread where the guy kept coming in and starting fights and getting his #### kicked and then coming back and getting his #### kick again and again and again as wrong as he was like you he just kept coming back and looking stupid.It's your Arrogant way that you started all this again like you did at JLC talking to all of us like we were a bunch a Idiots making it sound like everyone who thinks that there's a Hip Drop or some sort of adjustment for a hip are Idiots when clearly your the biggest IDIOT out there. Your all alone in this Richard if you think that hips aren't treated differently then a common rafter and they don't need some for of adjustment to plane in with a common rafter.So go keep cutting your hips the way you do but maybe one day you can cut the hip as I asked you to without over cutting the seatcut 2" or cutting the top plate like your Dumb #### Swanson book says or putting a V in the HEEL just cutting it square and you will see your hip will be short and some day you will see that when you make another plumbcut 3/4" in from your HAP cut and square it off you will see a little run and a rise and maybe you will get it but I doubt it.If you care to stop talking to all of us like your God and what you are doing is special which seems like your trying to get noticed for doing something special and your not then stop bringing up the Hip Drop issue becasue you'll never win. I'ts a sin because all you had to do was just answer the questions and admit that there was an AJUSTMENT and none of this Bullsh!t talk has to happen.Joe Carola
Joe,
Looks like we are going to get to build a 4000sq+ home this spring :-) I am really looking forward to that. The customers picked out a house from some book and we have to order the plan, but it looks like it'll be a 12-12 roof. I like that because everything is easy to remember. I'm not sure what the depth of the house is, but I bet we use 2x12s on 16" centers :-)
Since this is a roof framing "bull" thread, what have you been up too? Framed anything cool? You need to post more pics
Richard, You said, "Please go buy the Swanson's Blue Book and read the short description on cutting the the Hip. The method they show does not make and adjustments or drops. It fits perfect as they cut theirs."I took this Swanson Book from a Framer this morning and on page 22 it clearly shows you and also tells you about the hip moving in 3/4" towards the top.these are the exact words...WHEN SETTING HIP CUT OFF OUTSIDE CORNER OF PLATE SHADED AREA. THIS ALLOWS HIP TO SET IN AGAINST A FULL FLAT CORNER, RATHER THAN AGAINST OUTSIDE POINT. THIS ALSO ALLOWS HIP TO COME INTO LINE WITH OTHER RAFTERS LETTING ROOF BOARD LAY FLAT ON HIP.When your figuring you run for your common that dictates the length of your hip so if your common run is 12" then your hip run is 16.97" or 17" to the outside corner. Your HAP plumb line doesn't sit on the outside corner the way you cut it so that's your adjustment because you've cut the 3/4" plumb off the top which in the Swanson book clearly shows you that you would have to cut the outside corner off 3/4" so that YOUR HIP can slide forward in order to plane in.That's why you have to over cut your seatcut so it can slide forward or you would be 3/4" short at the top. You should only have to over cut your seatcut 3/4" and it will fit.First picture is from the Swanson book page 22 and the secong picture I drew to show you where your adjustment is and how it sits in 3/4" plumb off the corner towards the top of the hip and it would measure 1-1/16" from the outside corner to the right where the HAP sits on the wall plate.Can you now tell me that the Swanson book says no adjustments????????Joe Carola
Edited 1/11/2005 12:50 pm ET by Framer
Thanks Joe for that post, and esp. the pics. I knew the Swanson book couldn't ignore the "drop" phenomenon, regardless of what you call it. So they're chamfering the corner of the top plate at the seat cut, which effectively moves the hip rafter in, and shortens the height at the actual corner.
That's what I've been trying to tell Richard. All Richard has to do when he cuts his next hip is not over cut his seatcut at all and set the hip in place and he will see that it will be short 3/4" plumb...It's as simple as that. He would either have to cut the outside corner off as shown in the Swanson book or cut a V out of the heel 3/4" to slide it up or just simple over cut it 3/4" or his 2".This whole conversation is because he says that there's no "Hip Dropping" or "Adjusting " involved at all when there clearly is and for me it's worth going back and forth until he sees it or if it helps someone else to understand even though where all talking about the same thing and everyone else knows that there is some sort of adjustment no matter what you call it and if he doesn't see it after my last post then it's all your fault..........;-)Joe Carola