Roofer screw-up – What would you do?
I had a new, archi shingle roof installed about two years ago. Picked the lowest bidder (by $4 – $7K), but it was still around a $12K job. It included a tearoff of two previous layers. Overall, the job looks good – neat and professional and no leaks. But while doing some unrelated work earlier this week, I discovered that the roofer, er, “forgot” to put down any I&W shield. The specs (and the building code/inspector) called for two rows, since there is a fairly wide overhang.
Should I let it fly, ask for him to tear out 7′ of shingles and install I&W shield, ask for $$ back, or ??? FWIW, I’ve never had any ice damming problems on this roof in the past and the original decking shows no sign of leakage.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Replies
If done well with no leaks or ice dam issues...
what's the worry?
My house's 2.5/12 roof (in middle TN) lasted over 20 years without ANY felt/I&W under its three-tabs. Yours should do well if all the nails are in place and the adhesive has set.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
I would think that the worry is the $1.5k more you spent than necessary.
Ask for money back, or a deep discount on a future job done correctly.
j"It depends on the situation..."
"what's the worry?"I wouldn't worry about the leak if there is good 30# and no ice damning, but he clearly paid for something he didn't get.Suppose you contracted to buy a new car with this and that all listed on the invoice.Then a year later, you found out that they had sold you a model with a smaller less dependable engine than the one you had in the contract.Or you bought a truck with the trailering package that included a tranny cooling radiator, all clearly spelled out in the contract.Then a year later, you discover that all you got was the hitch and wiring harness but no tranny radiator?You haven't pulled a trailer yet and the tranny hasn't broken down yet, so what's the worry?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Excellent advice with some fine examples.
Another example: You buy a new car and go for the "special undercoating by Never-More" for $299.
The first time your new car is on a lift, away from the dealer, you decide to have a look. There doesn't seem to be any "special undercoating" so you ask the mechanic or service person if he sees evidence of the Never-More product. "Nope, that's standard factory sealer, nothing more".
"If I type up my question and your answer, will you please sign it?", you ask.
"Sure, I'll be glad to help you out with that. I can get it notarized at my bank if you like."
Edited 6/3/2009 11:21 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
>>If done well with no leaks or ice dam issues...
In the Pgh climate, some winters are more likely to see ice dams than others.
2 years is not much of a "test."
Maybe in Tenn... >>My house's 2.5/12 roof (in middle TN)
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Edited 6/3/2009 1:35 pm ET by rjw
A. "Picked the lowest bidder (by $4 - $7K), but it was still around a $12K job." So you got the job done for 33% to over 50% cheaper than the other bidders. Now you are considering getting it cheaper?
B. I don't know how you determined there is no I&W, but for piece of mind, place a friendly call to roofer and ask what his installation methods and materials were. You participate around here a lot but you're not a roofer. You may be missing something.
C. If you have it installed now, the old shingles are going to be tossed and the new ones won't match the existing - ever.
Just some thoughts.
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
"A. "Picked the lowest bidder (by $4 - $7K), but it was still around a $12K job." So you got the job done for 33% to over 50% cheaper than the other bidders. Now you are considering getting it cheaper?"
Well, it still wasn't cheap on a per square basis. This was no lowball bid by any means. And the specs and his contract clearly called for I&W shield as part of the price. I'm not looking for cheaper -- but I would have preferred to have the thing built to spec for the price agreed upon.
"B. I don't know how you determined there is no I&W, but for piece of mind, place a friendly call to roofer and ask what his installation methods and materials were. You participate around here a lot but you're not a roofer. You may be missing something."
I lifted the bottom course of shingles in several places and found felt directly on the deck, but no I&W shield. You're right tho' -- I'm sure no roofer. (And don't wanna be. Too hot/cold/wet up there! LOL!)
"C. If you have it installed now, the old shingles are going to be tossed and the new ones won't match the existing - ever."
Exactly. And I risk additional problems at the old/new joint since the last old course will have to be bent back for nailing the top new course. My limited experience with bending archis is not good, to say the least.
I must admit that I really don't expect this to leak -- more like it ticks me off that I paid for I&W, even discussed it it detail with the roofer prior to him bidding and starting the job since the BI noted it in red on the plans, and he blew it off expecting me not to notice.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
>>A. "Picked the lowest bidder (by $4 - $7K), but it was still around a $12K job." So you got the job done for 33% to over 50% cheaper than the other bidders. Now you are considering getting it cheaper?
I think that even the low bidder should follow code and the manufacturer's installation specs.
Unless specified in the contract....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
"I think that even the low bidder should follow code and the manufacturer's installation specs.Unless specified in the contract...."Maybe I misunderstand what you mean - seems to imply that one can contract so as to disobey the law which is not true....code is the minimum regardless of what a contract stipulates.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> >>Unless specified in the contract....">>Maybe I misunderstand what you mean - seems to imply that one can contract so as to disobey the law which is not true....code is the minimum regardless of what a contract stipulates.Good point, your rightSuch a contractual provision would almost certainly not be enforceable.OTOH, if there was an a agreement before the fact, it would reduce the "real world validity" of the right to complain, aside from the legal side. (I think that not every legal claim is worth pursuing, and not every "legal" claiim is necessarily "right.").
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
"I think that not every legal claim is worth pursuing, and not every "legal" claiim is necessarily "right.")."Absolutely agree there.This one seems pretty open and shut since code requires, contract stipulates, and HO can demonstrate that it was not done. case like this should take longer to swear in than to decide and render verdict for the plaintiff.But if the roofer is a decent soul with half a head on his shoulders, one phone call from Mike should get him a "rebate" pronto.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
File a claim in small claims court asking for refund of a fair value for what it would have cost for the I&W and installing it.
of course, that is if he doesn't willingly cough it up after a polite request
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
i see that the price has no bearing. If it was bid apples to apples, then that is the price. 2 years ago, there was a lot off work and not enough trades. prices went up. Some shops choose to not advertise, or have sales, expensive trucks, etc. There prices can be less, or what ever the reason is. Or, maybe he goofed on the price. But he still should have informed you and given you the choice to compensate for the cost of materials. (which is what i would possible do if it was my honest mistake)
If the guy spec'd I&WS then, it should be there. I'd call it a bait and switch, or maybe an oops on their part, but they should step up.
If the building dept requires 2rows in your case, then it should be there. If the BI didn't catch, call them and ask why. You won't get anywhere with them other than the deer in the headlight look. But asking may just bring personal satisfaction. I wonder if a permit was even pulled. .
The only thing I see is if the I&WS is required and not there, you must disclose that when or if you sell. Other than that, I'd be inclined to leave well enough alone if the ice damming has never been an issue. That stuff hasn't been around that long.
Are you sure it 30#, not 15# under them shingles? One screw up tends one to look for what else they did wrong...
I know a permit was pulled, 'cause I pulled it myself to build an addition. The new roof was part of the job, since the existing one was old, pretty much shot, and I couldn't match the shingles on the old part with the new. Figured I'd kill two birds . . . .
The BI noted the I&W requirement on the addition plans. The roof job was not inspected prior to completion, since no in-progress inspection is required for roofing. After the framing inspection, the BI doesn't come back until the insulation inspection, then the final.
As for the "30lb." felt, it happens that I'm not so sure. When I looked, I was thinking "15lb." but I didn't bother to check much further than that. That and to notice that there is no drip edge (except on the addition where I installed it as part of the dry-in work). I'm not even worried about that so much with archis and about 1" overhang.
I doubt this was an honest mistake -- a seasoned roofer doesn't simply "forget" I&W shield any more than he would "forget" flashing. That said, again, I'm not worried about this leaking any time during the useful life of the shingles. It's a 12/12 roof and it went without leaks for over 70 years with 15lb. felt, cheap 3-tabs, no drip edge, and no I&W, and I see no reason to expect things to change for the worse in the future.
I guess I just feel like the guy done me wrong. I don't wanna nuke the guy (which I could probably easily do, since I pay a LOT less for legal fees than he would, LOL) 'cause despite this, I kinda like him. (Heck, for all I know, maybe someone on his crew sold the I&W to someone else and he was none the wiser.) But I don't think I should let him off scott free either.
I wanted to see what the regulars here would say before I let on what I was thinking about doing -- I'm thinking of having him over to look and the non-I&W, and asking him how *he* thinks it should be made right. If he's a jerk about it, I'll nuke him. If he fesses up and is reasonable, I'll be a lot more likely to let him off the hook a bit -- maybe even a lot, depending.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
This changes a lot. You are the GC on this job and it was your job to be certain that all things were done as prescribed. Granted that the roofer stuck you by not doing all he was supposed to, you still have a claim against him although the culpability isn't as squarely on him as I had first thought.Did you require he provide insurance? was he registered/licensed to work in your locale? Even if you pulled the permit, he should have been licensed.... otherwise, you were using a guy under the radar, so to speak, and you may have little recourse.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Hey, this is PA -- no license required! At least not until next month. Starting July 1, the great Commonwealth of PA joins the pack and will require a "license" -- really just proof of insurance filed with the state, and entry into the state's contractor database.
Yeah, he's insured.
The fact that he's a sub really doesn't change things much. His contract is with me and is fully enforceable. The fact that I'm the GC does not relieve him of his duties under the contract in any way. The only difference is that the GC (me) would have to sue him (if that becomes necessary) instead of the HO (which, as it turns out, is also me anyway).Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
do you not have local licensing requirements?
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Only for plumbers and electricians, until July 1 when the contractor "licensing" kicks in. Note that anyone who can get insurance and pays the fee qualifies for a "license". No testing - just paperwork.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
In Ohio one is required to obtain a license in every city which one works. No test... just pay the money for the license, show proof of insurance and provide a bond.I am surprised that PA does not have a similar system in place now.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
In Ohio one is required to obtain a license in every city which one works. No test... just pay the money for the license, show proof of insurance and provide a bond.
This is not the case in the State of Ohio.
Some require bond for permit pulling. Some not. Licensing is not required in many cities in Ohio. Those that do often don't require proof of insurance.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I've yet to work in a city that did not require all three... at least over the last 10 years or so.I know that many cities require registration simply so they can track work and tax dollars due to them for services performed in their city.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
If it was in the spec it's as good as a breached contract. Regardless if a roof can or can't survive x-years without leaking, without ice and water doesn't matter.Nor does the installed value of the un-installed shield matter as much as the unforeseen future and possibilities not just related to the roof's integrity, but also perhaps the resale of the property and disclosure to a buyer. Particularity if local code expects it to be there and you tell a buyer the roof was replaced in 08' you'd have to disclose it. Plus would you really want separate runs and years of shingles on the same roof that's suppose to be all new and where else did they miss it. They broke contract, full refund or full roof are the options.
Cal's right.
Only about 40 some % of the state even has building inspection for residential.
They try pretty hard over this way to make themselves as official as you will let them.
You're prolly not wrong in you past circumstances - just doesn't make it universal.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Pete,
You can work in my entire county, the one east, west and north of here with no license required or asked for. In my county you can build a house with nothing more that a basic permit and a plumbing permit and inspection. Nothing else. All in Ohio. DanT
Calvin,
in akron, and the surrounding suburbs-- it's very hit or miss. akron has no license for roofers------but you needed a rubbish haulers license to haul the debris to the town dump------once they closed that you don't even need THAT,LOL---many of the surrounding 'burbs have their own licensing--and requirements----so i hold licenses in 2 adjacent suburbs--- but there isn't one---even if i wanted one----in the city i do most of my work Heck--we don't even have a building department now-- having outsourced that to the countyas far as an inspection------inspector is NEVER gonna check for ice and water shield---- that would require getting out of the car.stephen Edit:--- in the interest of fairness--- i was gonna add that cuyahoga county seems to have a license requirement for every 'burb etc. that I have looked at work in-------but we are actually doing a roof in Chagrin Falls-- i already talked to the building inspector there and there is no license there---- pretty sure that is in cuyahoga county.
Edited 6/3/2009 6:15 pm ET by Hazlett
Stephen
How hard is it to get the rubbish haulers license? Pay yer $$ and shut up? Or is it franchised and you need to show a "need".
Do you need it if you do your own stripping? And hauling?
What about mom & pop? If they haul the neighbors couch & brush?
inquiring minds
you paid a nominal fee----and they inspected the truck for lights, holes in the bed etc. the license was assigned to the truck. a cop ticketed me one time-- (he was parked outside the dump and nabbed me going in) for not having the proper license to haul debris homeowners could dump twice a year without the permit.stephen
I wanted to point out to Pete that in Ohio there is no blanket requirement for license, bond or insurance. Each municipality or county deals with it as they see fit. One of these days there may be a state license, but as of now it's whatever each jurisdiction says it is.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"a seasoned roofer doesn't simply "forget" I&W shield any more than he would "forget" flashing. "Well...IF this is an area where codes don't require the I&W, and IF he wrote the contract but then used a sub crew to do the work, which is not uncommon, then I can see where a miscommunication could have ensued.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"IF this is an area where codes don't require the I&W"
Code does require it to 3' above where the plane of the wall intersects the roof deck.
"but then used a sub crew to do the work"
His crew did the work. But I don't know if he was on the job personally. As stated above, for all I know, he wasn't around and his crew took off w/ my I&W and sold it on the streetcorner. You know those roofer-types! ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Another 2 thoughts:"Code does require it to 3' above where the plane of the wall intersects the roof deck."Does code require it BELOW where the plane of the wall intersects the roof deck? Is it possible that he use 15# 0r 30# felt UPTO the wall plain (one course of felt) and the switched to I&WS for a course or two? I dunno.Unless this is the case, you're right, he's wrong - but you are also the GC. If you had a "real" GC, would you be holding him/ her liable. If so, then you share the burden.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Code is from the edge of the roof up to 3" above the wall plane. That's why I needed two rows of I&W.
"If you had a "real" GC, would you be holding him/ her liable."
Well, that's not exactly how I'm looking at it. Since I AM the GC -- the party with whom the roofer contracted -- I can hold him solely liable for breach of contract. If this job was for someone else, you can bet I'd be after his butt big time. The sub/GC issue only matters when a HO tries to sue a sub directly. No privity of contract, so no basis for suit. Generally the HO has a contract with the GC and not the sub, so the HO can sue only the GC, who can in turn sue the sub who becomes a "third party defendant". In this case, I hold the contract with the roofer, so I can enforce it directly.
If I had had a "real" GC, I would have no choice but to pursue the problem through him. He would then doubtless claim over against the sub and, assuming I prevailed in the action, I would get a judgment against both the GC and the sub, and I could choose who (either one or both) I wanted to go after up to the amount of the judgment.
That said, I'd rather work it out with the guy.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Edited 6/3/2009 2:18 pm ET by MikeHennessy
"a seasoned roofer doesn't simply "forget" I&W shield any more than he would "forget" flashing. "
Well...
IF this is an area where codes don't require the I&W, and IF he wrote the contract but then used a sub crew to do the work, which is not uncommon, then I can see where a miscommunication could have ensued.
Come on Piffin!!!! When a sub crew comes in, there's a bill of materials, Home Pack, for that job. There should be an Invoice showing what was delivered.... There's also a credit to the job for materials returned....When those bills are paid by the guy that wrote the contract, the I&W shield rolls are on there are they aren't.
If the contractor wrote the bid, he should have been there to see the full tear-off and even the tar paper removed for the I&W to be laid down on the bare deck... Tearing off old felt, down to the bare deck, is messy and time consuming....
If his crew is stealing the ice and water shield, at $60+ a roll, he's got a bunch of problems in addition to the long list of unhappy customers!!
Three out of four roofers I've contracted with have sung a great song for the sale, but they've lied, cheated, and even stolen while doing a job that "looks good" to an untrained or absent homeowner. Yet, the contractor's cheating or poor "Miscommunication" still got them an EXTRA $1,000-$3,000+ in their pocket and on top of their profit built into the contract!!!
The wisdom I read from one Breaktimer seemed the best advice I've seen on this forum.... Words to the effect, "Get a lawn chair and bottle of water and camp out to watch the job being done."...
I'd add that having a disposable camera in your pocket will document where there are questions and GO call the boss and address the "Miscommunication" before it goes and farther. It's my money being spent on my house; all I want is a job done like it is supposed to be and how it's written on the contract... Two contacts I've signed in the past weren't worth toilet paper when problems were found.... My last roofing experience was a constant fight, even when I grilled hamburgers for the whole roofing crew on their last day...
If there is any "Miscommunication" between subs and contractor, the homeowner will never know about it until it's too late, and it's still the contractor's contract and responsibility to put on the roof that's on the contract.
If this roofer can be found, If his roofer will even address the missing materials and new shingle problem, in this economic sag, it'll be the 8th wonder of the world if the OP ever sees any money or correction...
Bill
dang, billjustbill gets his GraceI&W for $60 a roll.
It's $136 here.
I need some lessons.
seeyou invented lessons
Betcha it's not Grace... just some generic peel and stick.
heh ya, that stuff you can rip between yer fingers.
Grace is good stuff. Somebody on here said they'd found an equivilant at a much lower price. I should have wrote that down.
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
So it turns out to be GAF. Never used theirs so don't know if it is thinner/cheaper or not.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Shoot, maybe it's gone up even more since I checked.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
kinda floored me a few months back when I first noticed it. Was quite a jump.
REZ,
Actually, in the bid of reroofing completed last October, they bid 2 squares of Ice and Water at a total of $100.00
Just go to "Lon Smith Roofing Company" and tell them "Bill" sent ya....
Bill ;>)
By Ice and Water are you speaking specifically of the Grace I&W Shield product with the self healing membrane?
Ice & Water shield products from various companies are manufactured differently and carry a variety of prices.
The Grace Ultra I just covered on the copper tower goes for $ 239 for 34" x 70 ' roll !!
dang, have gold specs in it or what?
By Ice and Water are you speaking specifically of the Grace I&W Shield product with the self healing membrane?
Ice & Water shield products from various companies are manufactured differently and carry a variety of prices.
Yes, it was the sticky membrane with the white backing that had to be peeled off. The brand name on the boxes was GAF's brand, because they had to use three products made by GAF to qualify for the certified warrantee for both roofs: Armor Shield II shingles, I&W shield, and the #3 of their ridge venting product.... The 2/12 porch roof on the storage cabin already had I&W under O/Corning 30 arch. shingles for only 90 days before the bad hail storm hit. The O/C shingles were removed, but the original I&W shield was left and a new layer of GAF's I&W was overlaid on top. Then, the Armor Shield II shingles were put on with 6 nails to the shingle for the additional mid-level GAF/ELK wind warrantee the certified company tossed in for free.
The subcontractor crew didn't add new flashing on the two dormers when it was listed on the contract...and yes, they had to come out with a backup team to take off the shingles and add the flashing, new I&W, new Hardipanel and 3/4"x 4" Harditrim, and two new bundles of matching shingles for each dormer to repair the leaks....
I guess the silver lining to all my latest roofing Up's and Down's came when I got the GAF warrantee registered, and when my Insurance Company added 10% more coverage, but lowered my Homeowner's insurance $503.00 from last year's policy, simply because of the Armor Shield II impact resistant shingles...
Bill
Edited 6/7/2009 5:19 pm ET by BilljustBill
"Come on Piffin!!!! When a sub crew comes in, there's a bill of materials, Home Pack"even after roofing for twenty years as a contractor and a sub, I've never seen what you are talking about. A larger ourfit may have a work order with the details. Maybe that is what you call a home pak.but lots of outfits deal with their subs verbally and a simple miscom is entirely possible.
Just as possible that Mike was intentionally screwed.If you can sell me I&W for $60 a roll, I'll take all you can get. I pay 98
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piffin,
Just review the roofing company's contract I sent you. It's all there in bids and dollars.... I also have the invoice of the materials unloaded by the 18-wheel driver...I signed for it and had him sign it, too. The best part came when the roofing company's Inspector came and did a leftover materials count so it could be returned. I had him sign for what he picked up... What's delivered minus what's picked up: equals what's used.... What's used is what's paid for...Charging for more than what's used is a crime!!
Just as possible that Mike was intentionally screwed.
I do hope you are right. If he gets his refund without a problem, then it was unintentional.... I hope he will post his progress, I would sure help improve my outlook toward roofing people.
If you can sell me I&W for $60 a roll, I'll take all you can get. I pay 98
Like I told Rez, to check on I&W shield prices, you can just contact the company's name and phone number on the pdf bid file I sent you, and you reviewed, then tell them "Bill" sent ya....
On a $42,000 roofing job on two asphalt shingle roofs and two metal R-panel roofs, after over bidding 13 squares of Armor Shield II, delivering cheap polyester white instead of Kynar white R-panel, and shown the actual materials used on the final $38,000 cost of their roofing job, I know they'll remember me.... ;>)
Bill ;>)
"What's delivered minus what's picked up: equals what's used.... What's used is what's paid for...Charging for more than what's used is a crime!!"Not necessarily true!In over 35 years,I have NEVER contracted with a roof with a homeowner on a per square price. I only use fixed prices, that purposefully do not set quantities for anything. I generally send out more material than I have figured so that a last minute run isn't needed to complete the job. If the job goes over, I eat it. If it's under, that's great.The homeowner is fully aware of this when he signs the contract.Wood replace can't be predicted, so I have a lineal price for sheathing, and a per sheet price for plywood, to be added at the end of the job.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Thanks for the insight, John. I know each job is different and each roofing company will do it a different way...
My last contract was overbid by 13 squares (at $201/sq.)? All I asked for was a price for the labor, materials, and a fair profit margin from the roofing company. When they bid 63.39 squares and had their supervisor come out an measure the two roofs again and say "I'm comfortable with my salesman's numbers", that's one thing. But when the materials are delivered, there's not even that amount of materials they bid, wouldn't you start getting concerned? So, I can see what you are talking about when more materials are delivered. But when the materials delivered minus what is used(which included 15% waste due to a hip/gable roof), then only 50 squares were actually used, something was wrong somewhere, right?
If you had bid the job, and after all was done, you found you were 13 squares overbid, would you charge the homeowner for materials and labor that were never used?
Bill
Edited 6/7/2009 4:54 pm ET by BilljustBill
When I bid a job,I am almost always biding against other companies. Sometimes 4 or 5. I never specify squares.If you insist on labor, materials, and profit breakdown for your roof bid, I wouldn't even bid your job. Period.When I build a home, I figure squares and provide materials (shingles, felt,I&W, and drip edge) for the roof. If I use a sub, he provides his nails, caulking and flashing. He gets paid for what he installs. This is a business to business relationship. I take the risk, he simply provides the labor. When I roof a house for a homeowner, it is a business/customer relationship. I rarely (almost never) do labor only arrangements with homeowners. If I do, it's not at sub rates, I figure the same labor and profit as though I provided the material."If you had bid the job, and after all was done, you found you were 13 squares overbid, would you charge the homeowner for materials and labor that were never used?"If I was 13 square under, would the customer pay me the difference? He11 no! It's a bid, I take the risk, I get rewarded or punished on how I figured the job.Actually, if I bid 13 sq over, I most likely wouldn't have gotten the job. But if I bid 13 sq under, chances are I would get the job and lose my a$$ on it. Mistakes are stacked against the contractor. Bid too high-lose the job. Bid too low-get the job and lose your a$$.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
If you insist on labor, materials, and profit breakdown for your roof bid, I wouldn't even bid your job. Period.
No, you misunderstood what I wrote on one point. I don't want/need to know the profit breakdown....
I just want to know what's going on my roof and how much of it there is.... I expect the roofing company to know their business, and do a good job for a good price...and if unseen things pop up, I, and the insurance company, would expect to pay a fair price to repair them.
Somewhat like you said, if you underbid the job by 13 squares (50-13 squares), I'd wonder why and would think you may not know what you are doing.... ;>)
I don't want to be seen as getting things for "free", but I'm not going to do business with a company that lies, cheats, and steals....
"I don't want to be seen as getting things for "free", but I'm not going to do business with a company that lies, cheats, and steals."How is giving a bid, doing the job for the agreed upon price, then billing for that price (no matter how much material is used) lying, cheating or stealing?You want cost plus, and I'm offering a bid. Apples and oranges.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
In Bills defense, if I remember correctly, the contractor made the mistake of putting the squares in the contract. You and I would never do this, because we know better, but.....
You think Bill would have ponied up for 13 more square if the guy was light?I think not.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
t was paid for, by his insurance company. I think if I remember correctly, the insurance company made out with Bill's dilligence.
A point for all of us that use a fixed price contract, Don't specify quanity, unless you like giving money back!!!!
I see. If the guy was 13 square light, Bill would have made sure someone else ponied up for it.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
There you go!>G<
There was alot going on with his "deal/situation".
A lot of questionable info. Finally e-mailed some to Pif. Noone could really unravel any of it. Major lead in to a questionable situation was that he was pickin' apart an insurance deal - go figure.
Second tip off is that he's tryin' to push Rez off of the "I got the best deal" throne.
Cut to the chase -- Not worth the effort. -- You're right. He aint. But, he'll post 'til forever sayin' He's right.... Blah,blah, blah...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Hmmmmm, you and Svenny from the same state...same attitude,too.
A lot of questionable info. Finally e-mailed some to Pif. Noone could really unravel any of it. Major lead in to a questionable situation was that he was pickin' apart an insurance deal - go figure.
If you asked Piffin about the contract, it would be seen as bid/sold by the materials used... X dollars for each material used.
Cut to the chase -- Not worth the effort.
I don't know what isn't worth your effort, but when overcharged for more than $4,000, I'd say "Yes, I'll get it right if it takes He11 freezing over.... ;>)"
When the roofing company faxed the contract to the insurance company for their review and approval, the roofers were saying these are the prices and this is our bid. It was approved, and so well was the contract written, every bit of the money was sent, except for the wooden fencing hold back of just $499.... Would they release $42,000 if they didn't like the way the contract was laid out?
By the way, saving a dime or saving a dollar mounts up....So, I'm not trying to push REZ off his well earned "throne"... It's good to know there are other guys that enjoy the hunt as much as saving the dollars along the way...
So, get the facts right when you post your "opinion", or stand corrected...lest you are seen living up to your forum name...;>)
Edited 6/8/2009 12:29 am ET by BilljustBill
"Would they release $42,000 if they didn't like the way the contract was laid out?"
The insurance company has no right to tell you how to conduct your business. They can't tell you what contractor to use. They can't tell you how to structure your contract. Their only job is to cut a check to make you whole.
If the roofing company says they need only five thousand dollars to make you whole, the insurance company will gladly cut you that check for 5k. If the contractor needs 200k for that roof, the insurance company will cut a check for numbers that they have determined are appropriate for your area. The type of contract has no bearing on their decisison.
You could contract with ten monkeys being managed by a band of gypsies...the insurance company cannot stop you.
"Hmmmmm, you and Svenny from the same state...same attitude,too"
We's just a couple 'a crooked Ohiya roofers, yepJohn Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Ohio?
Don't go leavin' Hazlett out of the mix then.
What's round at both ends and high in the middle?
How is giving a bid, doing the job for the agreed upon price, then billing for that price (no matter how much material is used) lying, cheating or stealing?
When a bid is base on the number of squares and materials to be used (like mine was) that the roofer says is there, and by measuring twice to confirm the numbers, then the roofer uses 13 squares less... That is either plain incompetence or actual lying, cheating, and stealing, from a homeowner!!
It's robbery without a weapon, plain and simple.... What else could it be?
Now I remember. You are so self possessed, I just didn't realize this discussion was all about your old dead horse.Yawn.........John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Now I remember.
You are so self possessed,
When it comes down to doing the job right, honest, and within a reasonable length of time...I'll make sure the roof I get is the one the bidder said I was getting!!! In doing that, it gives me what was agreed upon... AND... saves me $4,000 so I can make other roof improvements... With the future on a down turn, and the possibility of shortages of materials and money, getting a good roof NOW may be the last one the insurance company will completely pay on for a long, long time...
Well,....dead horse...No, not this....You were the one that said how you do your bidding.... by the job, not by the square. You didn't offer a response to the lying and cheating question I directly asked you about. Tells me alot....
If you came to my house and gave me a bid, with a 13 squares over bid like this company's employees did, I'd fired you before you started.... plain and simple.... YAWN.... ;>)
Edited 6/7/2009 11:54 pm ET by BilljustBill
That is either plain incompetence "
Lets assume that it's incompetence. Should you pay less because they don't know how to figure add? Would you pay more if they were thirteen squares light and knocked on your door and asked for 3900 more?
"I just want to know what's going on my roof and how much of it there is.. "
We've sold seven roofs in the last eight days. Each contract essentially states that the entire roof will be stripped and then recovered in it's entirety. Internally, we know the volume of squares. Why? Because you don't need to know. You only need to know that there won't be any bare wood showing on your roof when the job is done.
If we decide to order extra material, should you be entitled to that too? What are you going to cover with it....your bathtub? We didn't contract to cover your bathtub.
You are wrong in your thinking unless it was a cost plus contract. If it is a fixed bid contract, then you have no right to pay anything less than the fixed bid that you agreed on.
Are you going to walk around and pick up nails and demand to get a rebate for them too?
How about you posting the entire contract and then the real story will come out.
I hope I never sell a job to someone like you.
Each contract essentially states that the entire roof will be stripped and then recovered in it's entirety. Internally, we know the volume of squares. Why? Because you don't need to know. You only need to know that there won't be any bare wood showing on your roof when the job is done.
Hiding something there, Jim? Ever live in Ohio?
If I'm painting a room, I need to know the sq. footage to know how much paint/primer to buy. If I'm buying a roof, either I'll know how much of what materials are going to be used or I won't buy it....
....If we decide to order extra material, should you be entitled to that too? What are you going to cover with it....your bathtub? We didn't contract to cover your bathtub.....If it is a fixed bid contract, then you have no right to pay anything less than the fixed bid that you agreed on.
Having Extra materials for a job is good common sense. Extra materials belong to the roofing company. You're contracting and selling shingles for bathtubs, too???? SCARY. Extra/excessive materials padded into a job bid, then never used, is stealing. I'd think that a "Fixed Bid" is based on fixed costs for labor and materials. If I agreed to pay dollars and have 35 squares on my house, I'd expect you to use 35 squares... Not letting the homeowner know, but internally the company knows, then charging for materials not ever used...well... That's a crime here in Texas. I can see the Headlines now...
Roofing salesman found guilty on 7 counts of grand theft.... ;>)
I hope I never sell a job to someone like you.
If you helped me understand what amounts of roofing materials were used and why it takes that, it might make me consider your company's bid. But, bid with a contract that shows just grand totals, you would never sell me a roofing job.
Stay in Austin, it's shorter trip to the State Penitentiary if you happen to be a crooked roofer.... ;>)
uhoh.
seeyou invented the uhoh
smirkRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thank God I'm not his roofer. Thats the worst kind, retired, read a book so he knows what he's doing, and pick the work apart before its finished. By God, these crooked contractors ain't gonna get me.
They likely gave him the money just to shut him up. I'll give a dollar toward that. Anyone else?
Edited 6/8/2009 11:28 am ET by catfish
That statement could start a long list...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
If he got money back he owes it to the insurance company.
It aint worth it...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Read the whole context...it went back to the insurance company so they paid it in on the decking overlay...
Oh well, I'll finished with this....
Work, or lack of it, will be it's own justice for those who practice to decieve...
Have a great day!!
Bill ;>)
"Having Extra materials for a job is good common sense. Extra materials belong to the roofing company. You're contracting and selling shingles for bathtubs, too???? SCARY. Extra/excessive materials padded into a job bid, then never used, is stealing. I'd think that a "Fixed Bid" is based on fixed costs for labor and materials. If I agreed to pay dollars and have 35 squares on my house, I'd expect you to use 35 squares... Not letting the homeowner know, but internally the company knows, then charging for materials not ever used...well... That's a crime here in Texas. I can see the Headlines now... Roofing salesman found guilty on 7 counts of grand theft.... ;>)"You have no idea what you are talking about. You know precious little about construction and contract law. You want to combine aspects of a fixed price bid, and a cost plus bid into some sort of hybrid where it's a crime to not do it "your way". My business practices are totally ethical, legal and above board. Your comments about JHole and me are born of ignorance and totally unfounded at best. They are slanderous and libelous at worst.Have a nice life......John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
You have no idea what you are talking about. You know precious little about construction and contract law. You want to combine aspects of a fixed price bid, and a cost plus bid into some sort of hybrid where it's a crime to not do it "your way".
Hey, it's fair and it worked for both sides...
Your comments about JHole and me are born of ignorance and totally unfounded at best. They are slanderous and libelous at worst.
If I've stepped on some toes, it's meant for those who operate and bid a shady dishonest quote...
Only you know how to apply what I've said....
Have a good night,
Bill
Thanks for the advice.
It's very clear that you and I would never do business. I'm more than willing to discuss the details of a roof with anyone except jackasses. I don't have the time of day for them. Please don't thing that I am insinuating that you, or anyone else is a jackass. Im just making the point that we don't have to work for everyone and we don't have time for those who's hidden agenda is anything other than getting an excellant roof at an excellant price. That is not a personal statement, but rather a broad business philosophy.
Our contract states a fixed fee on the bottom. There are no areas that enumurate the number of squares and there's really no need to do so. We do however guarantee that the roof will be stripped and recovered. Common sense tells us, and the clients that ALL of the roof will be covered.
You might be one of those types of clients that wants to dig deep into our costs, overhead and profit margin. You most certainly are entitled to have that need fullfilled but we are not the kind of company that caters to those needs. We are a roofing company, not a business consultant.
Over the last year, I've also contracted a number of painting contracts. I have never discussed gallons, square footage or anything remotely like that with any client. I have however, made every client very happy with a quality paint job.
One bit of advice: I'd probably be a little bit more careful about tossing around insinuations that someone in here is crooked. It looks real bad for you.
How I chose a roofing company is my way. I don't like misleading quotes for unused materials...
If you read what I've said as saying they are bad people, well, it applies if they do bad things... So, one person speaking the truth about factual bad things is the least of their problems...
If you and they are good guys in white hats...great, the world needs more of them... How about posting a blank copy of one of your current contract forms? I'd like to see the foundation on which you contract your jobs....compare apples to apples including all the fine print.
Bill
Edited 6/8/2009 11:27 pm ET by BilljustBill
How about you answering the oft asked question: Would you pay the guy for an additional 13 square if the guy had to call to order 13 more than he orginally thought he needed?
If you don't unequivically answer that with a resounding "yes, I would have happily cut him a check for $2900." then it is proof that you blow a lot of smoke about ethics and fairness but only want it to apply in a manner that benefits you at the expense of others.
I've run into that type of client at least 1000 times in my long illustrious career. I'm always saddened at how low of a life they lead.
If you want to review my contract, call and set up an appointment and after we qualify you, we'll send out a sales rep to evaluate your roof. I highly doubt that you would pass the qualifying call though.
""I highly doubt that you would pass the qualifying call though"
I've walked away from a lot of these types over the years.
Sometimes overeager salesmen only smell the commission and ignore the tell-tale signs. Especially when work is slow. But the worst that can happen when your slow is to get a customer like this-no work is better than the hassle.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Boy oh Boy, you'd like my head on a stick, wouldn't you???
IF you have read this thread and my posts, YOU WOULD SEE that all I've ever asked was to to get an understanding of what I'm getting for the dollars being spent.... that's a two way street...
Plain and simple, JIM, YES I WOULD PAY FOR THEM and ONLY the materials needed to complete a non-leaking quality job.
Are you posting a blank copy of your company's contract, so readers can see how "your" bidding and fine print works? I see that you're side stepping the issue by having me "call and qualify".... Another sales tactic, don't address the question, just derail and go on...??
I've got this simple answer to all those who hide their costs and overcharge little old ladies, widows, young married couples, and other uneducated or mentally challenged customers....:
Make all roofing jobs contracts like an auto mechanics' invoice.... If there's one alternator that needs to be replaced, replace it with ONE new working alternator....not bill for three or four of them and hide it in a grand total... Show what work was done, the cost for labor, and cost for parts... PLAIN and SIMPLE
If I go in to have my car worked on, there are a thousand ways for the garage to be crooked, but there is still an itemized list of what is replaced, hand me my old parts to verify, and charge me for the labor.....You know there are rate books that show how much estimated time it takes to replace certain parts?
Criminals and crooked white-collar roofing salesman don't like the "light of day".... Hiding lists of materials, giving company ad sign bonuses, overcharging amounts of materials, and cheating the uneducated is wrong. I don't know you or any other guys, so how do I know if you are honest or if you are not. I can begin to tell how creditable the roofer is by the way the contract is laid out and the charges for labor and materials... If I can't see and understand that, I'll stay away from companies that operate with grand totals.
Remember our state's slogan: "Don't mess with Texas"
What you sell to other people is between you and God. What you sell to me....well, if it's wrong, I'll take it to through the court system, and give God what's left.....
Don't forget to post your blank contract...
Edited 6/9/2009 9:47 am ET by BilljustBill
Just out of curiosity, what did you do before you retired?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, I can guarentee he had to be an engineer!>G<
Just out of curiosity, what did you do before you retired?
Nine years I taught Industrial Arts Woodshop and the remainder was in Texas Public School Adminstration...
Huh, Heh heh...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Criminals and crooked white-collar roofing salesman don't like the "light of day".... Hiding lists of materials, giving company ad sign bonuses, overcharging amounts of materials, and cheating the uneducated is wrong. I don't know you or any other guys, so how do I know if you are honest or if you are not. I can begin to tell how creditable the roofer is by the way the contract is laid out and the charges for labor and materials... If I can't see and understand that, I'll stay away from companies that operate with grand totals>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Good thing you don't live in NY. You would never be able to have your roof done.
The practise in the building trades is to give a fixed price contract. The type of contract you expect works well when you are dealing with relatively small amounts of money,ie. car mechanic. The average contractor does business a diferent way. We figure out a bid for a job price. Whether we make a mistake or not in measuring is none of the customers business. I contract to replace your roof, not for a specific number of shingles.
What you are asking for, is something that I had an engineer ask for once. When I explained that his roof is not broken down into square foot pricing, he was able to understand. I was willing to give him my time estimate and let him pay if the hours went over. He declined, started to like the inclusive contract.
This is not stealing, but rather the way the construction business is done.
As someone stated earlier, you had a contract where some dunderhead made a mistake and put the approx. number of squares in it. Rather than fight you, the company didn't want to get into it and bought your silence for 13 squares.
Jim in Austin is a fine man, who I would trust with any building project I would contract with him. I feal that many of the regulars here on BT would say the same. Stop badmouthing people who you don't know.
Jim in Austin is a fine man, who I would trust with any building project I would contract with him. I feal that many of the regulars here on BT would say the same. Stop badmouthing people who you don't know.
Good to know... You are right, I do not know the fellow nor the way his company operates.
I would go back with Lon Smith Roofing Company tomorrow if I had the need to. I like their forms, how they show what's going to be used, and how much of it. Any mistakes that they made were handled and made right, it just was left up homeowner to find the errors.
With other contracts, and like the Original Poster, if the roofing job was done with "Grand Total" pricing, I'd have no recourse except the courthouse to make them come back and fix what was overcharged, left out, or poorly done...
Average people who have their home reroofed every 10 to 15 years don't know what to look for, or better said, they don't know what to "Look-Out" for.
I'm pushing for full disclosure on a bid contract, and will tell those around my area to get it in writing before signing anything to do with a "grand total price", plus don't pay a penny until the job is finished and done right...
Lastly, Jim forgot one thing in his failure to provide a blank copy of his company's contract.... It's not that I would "Have to qualify" before he would show his written contract bid, but that I would have to qualify him and his company to see if I wanted them... Grand total pricing for a $38,000 lifetime asphalt impact resistant shingle and Kynar metal R-panel roofing job WOULD NOT go to a company that prices roofing jobs by the grand total contract. It's my money, I'll spend it the best way I can find....
Heck, even every car company list what models and options cost on the window sticker, but I still have to shop around to find a dealership/company that would make the best offer on the same model and options and consider the reputations and record for dealing with warranty problems on the final grand total price.... At least I know what I'm getting, the final price, and the best information on the company's past record of good roofs and happy customers.... So, "Stop badmouthing people who you don't know."
what was overcharged, left out, or poorly done>>>>>>>>>>>..
Again you have done it, insulted people with no good reason. You are insinuating that everyone that uses a fixed price contract is overcharging their customers and have gone so far as to accuse them of being criminal. Back off, have you considered you might be wrong??
they don't know what to "Look-Out" for.>>>>>>>>>>>...
Again you are saying that we are criminals. Most contractors are hard working individuals that don't charge enough for their services. I know this because of the the number of contractors that go out of business every year.
I'm pushing for full disclosure on a bid contract, and will tell those around my area to get it in writing before signing anything to do with a "grand total price", plus don't pay a penny until the job is finished and done right...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
They have full disclosure, with what the contractor will use and how much. It is not necessary to break it down to unit pricing. Now you are bringing up another point. The dreaded "deposit".
This is something that small contractors use as a measure of the credit worthiness of a potential client. If a client doesn't have some "skin" in the game, most contractors that remodel will turn them down.
Lastly, Jim forgot one thing in his failure to provide a blank copy of his company's contract.... It's not that I would "Have to qualify" before he would show his written contract bid, but that I would have to qualify him and his company to see if I wanted them... Grand total pricing for a $38,000 lifetime asphalt impact resistant shingle and Kynar metal R-panel roofing job WOULD NOT go to a company that prices roofing jobs by the grand total contract. It's my money, I'll spend it the best way I can find.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
That is your choice. But remember you may be missing out on doing business with a well qualified contractor with your rigid requirements. Remember, to be successful, this business deal has to be good for both sides.
Heck, even every car company list what models and options cost on the window sticker, but I still have to shop around to find a dealership/company that would make the best offer on the same model and options and consider the reputations and record for dealing with warranty problems on the final grand total price>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Again you have lost me. You are comparing car dealers, to contractors. There are knowns in the car business, a lot of unknowns in remodeling.
Stop badmouthing people who you don't know.">>>>>>>>>>>>..
I am not bad mouthing you, I am trying to make you understand you have come off as being very closed minded with your preconceived notions about contractors.
Stop shouting, I am mearly having a discussion with you.
Accept my apology if I misread your intent and discussion. No, I don't think everyone is crooked nor a criminal... Like learning to fly and to be a good pilot, you've got to be taught what trouble to look for and then what to do when something goes wrong. I wish I that kind of training before having to look for and deal with roofing companies.
For those roofing companies I seen, especially in the last 12 months, sadly I've seen more problem companies than than no problem companies. You've got to know what to look for to weed through the bad ones and find a good one. Everywhere there are good guys and bad guys, no matter what profession or even your neighbor down the street...."Knowledge is Power" and the more info you have about most things, the more prepared you will be....
Thanks for your insight, Frammer.
Bill
Edited 6/9/2009 10:15 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 6/9/2009 10:18 pm ET by BilljustBill
"all I've ever asked was to to get an understanding of what I'm getting for the dollars being spent"
And I've explained five times that most roofers post a lump sum fixed bid that covers THE ENTIRE ROOF.
You need not know any "square feet" or "squares" or whatever other technical jargon that some companies toss around.
In sales, we learn that tossing around techical jargon is often confusing. So, in an effort to KIss, we avoid terms like that. There are some clients that want to get deeper into things such as square feet and squares,etc and we will certainly accomodate them ....but....it really doesn't matter. We'll talk about it but once we start putting numbers on a contract, there won't be any reference to squares, square feet or anything of that nature. We might specify linear feet of ridge vent so we don't have to install the vent on areas that don't need it, but for the most part, all you're going to see is a lump sum.
If you wanted us to specifically state how many squares etc, we probably wouldn't accomodate that for the exact reason that this thread has went on so long. We don't want you claiming that we wasted squares by not cutting waste enough or some other hair brained argument.
You got your roof covered, be thankful. We are dealing with a client that gave a contractor the insurance check and he absconded and never did anything. Those are the crooks...not contractors that choose to legally create legal lump sum contracts. Most homeowners prefer lump sum contracts. They like the certainty that they provide. You obviously don't and that's your choice but you don't have to beligerantly claim that anyone doing them are crooks and belong in prison. That type of argument really weakens your credibility.
You want an appointment to discuss our contracts. I'll be right over on an hourly consultation basis. Figure $200 per hour. It'll only take me about 25 hours tops to show you what we have and how we do things. If you want to pop for a short corp jet trip to reduce the hours, figure in another grand or so.
"If I go in to have my car worked on, there are a thousand ways for the garage to be crooked, but there is still an itemized list of what is replaced, hand me my old parts to verify, and charge me for the labor.....You know there are rate books that show how much estimated time it takes to replace certain parts?"I got news for you - there are still a thousand ways to cheat with itemized billing, and rate books help with some of them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I whole heartily agree with that, Piff.
So, all that has been toss back and forth in this thread means zip....?
Okay, it really doesn't matter, I still will get an itemized list on a roofing bid... :>)
An itemized bid contract works kind'a like a bright security light in the dark of night....it won't stop the thieves and crooks, but at least you can see them coming. :>)
Bill
Think he grocery shops by the ingredient pricing?
Shops for a car at the parts department?
Can you imagine ordering a meal at a restraunt...And don't give me the "buffet" answer. Those guys are flat pricing crooks.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I've just added another rule to my rules to live by.
Never get into a conversation with an unqualified retired guy on the internet...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Think he grocery shops by the ingredient pricing?
Shops for a car at the parts department?
Can you imagine ordering a meal at a restraunt...And don't give me the "buffet" answer. Those guys are flat pricing crooks.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
J,
I really don't know why you would post this, but let me try once more...
Comments just like yours helped make me "dig in" and take things to their last step to resolve mistakes and just plain ripoffs. It appears I'm on one extreme and you are on the opposite end of extreme....
As an example, if you bought building plans to a project, (like buying a roofing company's plan for a new roof), from Taunton or any other company, the grand picture of the project is almost worthless; even with drawings, you only may have 2/3's of the information. To make the plans useable, you need the "Bill of Materials" to be provided, lest you'll just have to make one yourself. With all three sections, then you've got the whole picture, the process, the materials, and the customer will understand and more fully appreciate the whole cost in materials and your labor....
I'm now a DIY guy after punching a clock for 35 years and working at least 8 hrs a day, five days a week, plus extra time on nights and weekends, just so the job was done on time and done right... I still enjoy my own construction work. Seeing careless, if not criminal, roofing work done on the things I've remodeled or built from the ground up really frustrates me greatly. I feel sorry for you, because it appears that you've lost the insight of the whole picture customers need to have and the rewards that come from it. With statements like you posted above, it appears you just have a mean streak, even if this is your derogatory sense of humor. No type of contract will solve those issues....
Bill
Dude.
The. Client. From.........H E double hockey sticks....=)
Or as we call 'em: TCFH.
You wont win.....ever. Too bad, really.Naive but refreshing !
You are ignoring what guys are trying to explain to you.if you need surgery to remove a cancerous tumour in your gut, do you want the surgeon to first present you with a list of every item he will use and the prices for them before you let him do the work?There are variances in what happens on a job.On the same roof, one guy can very easily use three squares fewer shingles than another guy to cover the same area. That would be me because I gave a total bid to roof the house and any wasted materials is cost /profit out of my pocket. But if I pay a sub a per square piece rate to roof it, he has an incentive to waste materials. I could go on and on with examples, but feel like I'd be wasting my time. you do not read for understanding but only to craft your replies arguing on behalf of the position you have convinced yourself is right.I am home now and downloading my emails - haven't seen yours yet....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I read for understanding and application if it's correct and it works for me... Grand totals on contract bidding just don't work for me.
So, we agree to disagree.
The emails to PFN.... should be there waiting along with all your others, so I know you'll get to it when you can.
Bill
I have reviewed that all now.The invoicing was as unclear as the 'contract' and estimate were from my POV. So no conclusion.
The trail of correspondence between you and the billing clerk seems to be polite and agreeable tho and she agreed with your assessment of final cost.I remain very unimpressed with their way of handling written contractual details that should be designed to clarify things and protect them, but are left way too vague to suit me. I'd be afraid to step foot into court with no more than that if I were them. So I would agree with you and move on, regardless....For info to others, I know it is more common in TX than other places I've worked, to price a roof by the square, and the ins companies push for it, but there is no requirement to do things that way.When I was there, I priced them both ways - per square when requested and lump sum otherwise. Usually the ins co likes to know the piece rate for their database is all. I would guess that this Co being large and doing lots of business thru State farm wants to keep them happy and co-operative, so they have forms that provide the info up front.The things I speculate in my own imagination here could get me in trouble so I won't say that publicly. Bill sent me copies of things because a few months back when he was wrangling with issues I thought seeing the written might help untangle things, but it did not clarify a thing, IMO. So much for the concept of a bright light exposing things. It only left me with other questions that are best left ignored now that the thing has been settled between he and they.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
....So much for the concept of a bright light exposing things. It only left me with other questions that are best left ignored now that the thing has been settled between he and they.
Piffin, thank you for your efforts and time spent to review and reflect some observations.
The only thing I'd clarify is that with the use of their itemized bid contract, there was enough of "a bright light exposing things" for both the company and me to easily reach agreement and financial adjustments for materials bid but never used.
Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere on the 'net' you could link me to, that shows what a general lump sum contract looks like?
Bill
They all vary, because of differing state requirements.For new const, AIA contracts can be used, but generally only on more complicated and expensive jobs than a plain old roof, But you won't find an AIA online for free, because they invested a lot in lawyers to create it, so you have to pay to get it and use it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Now that I think of it, my state's atty general's ofice has a sample guideline contract available. I think other sates do also.
Texas is of course different, being a republic, but they might have a sample posted somewhere
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is Texas still a republic? I thought the republic moniker went away when they joined the States?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
haven't we chased enough sidetracking rabbits in one thread for now?;)As I understand it, there are some legal differences in the way Texas joined up with the rest of the states. probably no practical diff nowdays.I do know that they way certain typical policies work in other states is different in Texas tho. The way their workers comp laws apply is one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"As an example, if you bought building plans to a project, (like buying a roofing company's plan for a new roof), from Taunton or any other company, the grand picture of the project is almost worthless; even with drawings, you only may have 2/3's of the information. To make the plans useable, you need the "Bill of Materials" to be provided, lest you'll just have to make one yourself. With all three sections, then you've got the whole picture, the process, the materials, and the customer will understand and more fully appreciate the whole cost in materials and your labor...."
You are way off base again.
I've provided many sets of plan that were worth every cent of what I received for them and I've never included any "bill of materials". Furthermore, if an architect did a set of plans for me, I WOULDN'T WANT his bill of materials. There are too many factors that enter into a project like that and I'd much prefer that I make out my own list using the products and lengths that I like, combined with whatever is normally stocked on the shelves of my favorite suppliers.
Your "...whole picture, the process, the material, and the customer...." is perhaps something that YOU prefer but that isn't anything that I would want if I was contracting with someone to build something for me. I've subcontracted with hundreds of different sub-contractors (yes, even roofers) and I've NEVER wanted to see their list of materials if I'm accepting their lump sum payment. I don't have time, nor the desire to scrutinize their data...I've got a job of my own to do.
So, I suppose I should run to the attorney general and turn all those sub-contractors in because they crookedly gave me lump sum bids and I accepted them all? I think I'll pass on that idea because I don't want to get laughed out of the prosecutors office or sent in for an evaluation at the local shrink joint.
View Imagehttp://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Me tinks you are right, Grant!
So, I suppose I should run to the attorney general and turn all those sub-contractors in because they crookedly gave me lump sum bids and I accepted them all?
....You are way off base again.
Talk about way off base...satire will get you nowhere working with the public and children...
"Lump sum bids" are for those who like writing them and customers that like getting a black and white bottom line cost. Great for them...it's their choice, had the Original Poster not been specific in his contract to use I&W shield, he would have paid for I&W he didn't get and wouldn't have the legal recourse he may very well have to use to get money back for something that was never applied to his decking.
How would you handle his situation if you were responsible for omitting specified materials? (Please respond to this question)
Go your way and use your grand total contracts, and I'll go mine requiring at first a list of materials and brands, then consider a lump sum contractor's bid if he is the best to do the job...the best of both worlds... ;>)
Bill
We deliver what we specify.
If a mistake is made and the ice and water is omitted, and it it discovered, we would go back and install it.
I now feel vindicated that you would allow us to write lump sum contracts without adding any slanderous language. You learn faster than many in here.
I now feel vindicated that you would allow us to write lump sum contracts without adding any slanderous language. You learn faster than many in here.
Two things, Jim.
#1. If you or any "Lump Sum" company were the first or second to give a roofing bid for me, I wouldn't have near enough info for me to sign on the dotted line. Other bids with itemized amounts of materials and their grand totals is what I would be looking for also. After knowing what I'm getting, and a final price from both types of bids, then I'd shop for the best company to do the job, be that lump sum or an itemized bid company.
"Slanderous" language isn't that if it reflects the dishonesty of a company's actions and failure to correct them... Satire is always wrong in the context teaching or ironing out problems. It boils down to seeing things from a customer point of view or a roofing company's point of view. As long as both clearly understand and do what they say they are going to do, then meeting in the middle is best of both points of view.
#2. Without seeing a "Lump Sum" contract, I find it difficult to understand how it is written so a customer and a roofing company can clearly see and point to what materials are going to be used...... It would seem that there is some type of itemization within a your lump sum contract signed by the customer. You said you had bid/done hundreds of jobs. How do you bid a State or Federal job, by lump sum or by itemized materials?
Bill
"#1. If you or any "Lump Sum" company were the first or second to give a roofing bid for me, I wouldn't have near enough info for me to sign on the dotted line. Other bids with itemized amounts of materials and their grand totals is what I would be looking for also. After knowing what I'm getting, and a final price from both types of bids, then I'd shop for the best company to do the job, be that lump sum or an itemized bid company."
Why would you need anything more than a lump sum contract? By "Lump Sum", are you saying a contract that just says "contractor will replace roof for $12k"?
If so, I can understand where you're coming from, but our lump sum contracts clearly (at least they're intended to) state that we will be removing the existing shingles, installing felt paper, I&W shield at eaves and valleys, 30 year Tamko shingles, Cobra ridge vent, etc. I would think that the quantities are only useful to you if you're trying to find the absolute lowest bidder or use the material list to do the work yourself.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I've already explained a lump sum contract several times to you. We replace ALL the roofing materials for a lump sum. We don't count and specify the roof jacks or shingles or metal except for internal purposes.
If I was in the lanscaping biz and replaced your lawn, would you make me count every blade of grass? No, you'd just expect to look out and see all green instead of brown patches. That is the same principle that applies to the roof: I'll replace your entire roof, and all it's components for X amount of dollars. K.I.S.S.
Just for clarification..
Is that the standard K.I.S.S.
Or Keep Inventory of Stolen Shingles....Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I've already explained a lump sum contract several times to you. We replace ALL the roofing materials for a lump sum. We don't count and specify the roof jacks or shingles or metal except for internal purposes.
My question was do you bid State and Federal projects with the lump sum bid? Yes/No?
Thanks,
Bill
My question was do you bid State and Federal projects with the lump sum bid? Yes/No?
I've never done federal projects, but I have done state and city projects. They are always lump sum proposals tied to a set of specs.
For my contractor business, I typically include quantities, especially on addition projects. These type projects often get scaled back and if that happens the GC can get a good idea of price by adjusting the quantities without me having to re-submit proposals everytime there is an adjustment during the planning stage.
My regular customers can also ballpark a project during initial meetings with their clients using these numbers during the quailify stages.
I don't typically provide quantities to home owners. I do specify very clearly what type of material I'll be using. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Seeyou,
Thanks for the insight. I can see the flexibility in being able to adjust to changing budgets.
For me, in over 30 years, I've always had to get bids on anything that had a lifespan of 5 years or more or if it exceed some pricepoint. Matching specs for all to bid on, with the terms "Equal or Better", means I got what was needed with the best delivery window, best price, and best service...
Guess I'm a product of my environment... ;>)
Bill
"Guess I'm a product of my environment... ;>)
Bill"
"MY" is the opperative word in your statement....Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"MY" is the opperative word in your statement....
120897.157 in reply to 120897.153
Huh, Heh heh..." "
Edited 6/12/2009 10:49 pm ET by BilljustBill
I've never met Mr and Mrs State. I don't recall meeting a Mr or Mrs Federal either.
If we ever meet, I'll be bidding a lump sum on their proposals too.
There really isn't anything too cagey or sneaky about lump sum bids. Most people do not want to be in a position where they don't have a firm, fixed number to pay. Most would reject any type of financial arrangement that included some form of open end pay arrangement. You've stated that you would pony up an additional 2600 if the contractor discovered a 13 square error in his orignal estimate and I can say with certainty, that you are the exception to the rule. All of my past customers for the last few years have specifically told me that they want a firm fixed bid and no overages or changes at the end of the contract.
We've already decided that "to each his own". I don't do proposals that itemize amounts and you don't accept lump sum bids. Cool....I'll never be standing in your driveway defending my numbers.
Well played........my friend.
Bill ;>)
Since you want to bring this up again, there were unresolved questions that could only be answered by how they billed you when that time came, because some of the estimate details could be read more than one way.I don't recall that you ever made a post saying if they had sent you a bill and how it was written. You still waiting for them to bill you Bill?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't recall that you ever made a post saying if they had sent you a bill and how it was written. You still waiting for them to bill you Bill?
The final bid was adjusted according to the materials used; just like it was bid. Since I already had the money from the insurance company, except for the hold back on my wooden fence damage, I paid the amounts in four payments. Working with the people in business office, the best of the whole company, I paid in in four parts with a credit card. Not only did I get the reward points for it, I also got the backing of the credit card company if I contested/disputed any of the work paid for. Sure made things better... All the amounts were adjusted to "Actual materials used", just like it was bid.
The Insurance company agreed to help with the damage of the old 1x8", tongue and groove yellow pine decking, so I agreed to use the 13 square overage and apply it to the new 1/2" plywood decking overlay on the house. I came out a bit on the short side, but with the yearly savings of $500 on the homeowners' policy due to using the Armor Shield II impact resistant shingles, I'll win in the long run.
It worked out great and fair for all parties involved.... no dead horse there ;>)
Edited 6/7/2009 11:28 pm ET by BilljustBill
The open Q as I recall was whether they had billed for the first shingles or added for the upgraded better quality ones that you requested
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
so mike, were you able to contact your roofer?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"so mike, were you able to contact your roofer?"
I hadn't heard back since I called last week, so I put another call in this a.m. While I was typing this, he called back. He remembered the job, and says he told his guys to put it on and he assumed it was done. He's gonna come out and check.
Sounds like he's gonna play ball. I'll keep y'all posted.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
'bout what I suspected.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The open Q as I recall was whether they had billed for the first shingles or added for the upgraded better quality ones that you requested
The bid was always for the upgrade from 30 yr to the Armor Shield II, and as listed in the contract, the upgrade added cost was for me to pay.... The actual question was dealing with the correct number squares. They overbid by $2,600 for 63 squares, and I, the job supervisor, and the good people in the company's business office saw and documented that only 50 squares were put on the roofs. The company corrected/adjusted their billing and I only paid for 50 squares.... Using the power of a disposible camera's pictures I took of the old roof decking, as well as the roofer's quality of work. It was the key in getting not only the insurance company agreeing that the decking had been damaged by the storm or storm of reroofing hammers as other roofs they covered over the last 32 years, but also let me show how late the crew's supervisor made his crew work in the dark causing the two leaks over the porch at the dormers... Facts are facts and my pictures showed those facts....
View Image
I'm only bringing up my roofing contract because the way I'm seeing other guy's bids work, they seem to think that Padding the Bid with 13 squares and hiding it by not listing the actual material amount in their bid is legal and ethical.... I was always taught that honesty is the best policy, and hiding that kind of money isn't anything but stealing, lying, and cheating...
Boy, I'm glad they're not from around these parts. I've had enough trouble with the companies down here who lay out their bids item by item!!! When happily and fully paid, the $38,000 got me a $500 gift card on the rewards plan and enough left over to combine with my other reward points to get me another $500 + $120 gift cards. Using the gift cards I chose for when Sears' had a 20% off store wide sale and on closeout and discontinued tools make that money stretch even more!! Chances are most independent roofers don't take plastic, and I understand why. I'm for getting what is on the contract and making my dollars buy as much as possible. Not letting some crooked roofing jerk rip me off to line his pockets with stolen money has been quite a learning experience....
I hope the OP gets his money back...but if he were dealing with the two posters in this thread from Ohio, I'd bet the farm he wouldn't get back a penny... ;>)
Bill
Edited 6/8/2009 9:44 am ET by BilljustBill
"I'd bet the farm he wouldn't get back a penny... ;>)"
Hmm . . . is it a nice farm? ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Hey there Mike,
Now be fair, click and paste the whole quote and keep it in its context...;>) It is a good farm... 80 acres of West Texas blackland soil...so good, the 100 + year old county road it's next to is called "Blackland Road"....
It is sounding more and more like you had a good guy to do your roof... I'm pullin' for you...
Just stay away for a few Ohio roofers, and maybe one in Austin, and their bidding approach... ;>)
Bill
Edited 6/8/2009 10:30 am ET by BilljustBill
The paperwork you forwarded to me was not as clear as your recollection of things about what was and what was not. it was somewhat sl;oppy contract writng and left things open to interpretation.That is why I did not offer any definite opinion at that time and said I'd have to wait to see the final bill and how it was written before I took a stand. One part of the paperwork stated that the cost of upgrade would be billed to you above and beyond the written price for the replacement.I have my own opinion about what might have been going on, and that they might have been working to your benefit, untill you pulled your sword out on them and started slinging accusations of crooked behaviour. I see that you think just about anybody who has ever laid a shingle is a criminal.I still reserve my opinion until I see the bill, Bill, but I can agree with those in this thread who see you as a customer I would rather not have myself, and would not be surprised to learn that the reason the Lon Smith Roofing Co agreed with your assessment of final billing amount was to be shed of the relationship and put it all behind as water under the bridge. Sometimes we have to cut our losses so we can get on to another job and a better customer.maybe you are right, but for my POV, it just ain't worth it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One part of the paperwork stated that the cost of upgrade would be billed to you above and beyond the written price for the replacement.
Piffin, I've appreciated the facts you've shared your experience with. The contract showed what the upgrade was and that the homeowner was to pay the difference between the 30 yr on the house and the new shingle type.
I don't like "Taking out a sword". But when opinions given are a bit twisted, hostile, and down right wrong, based on the posted facts, I'll take issue with anyone (shingling bathtubs, or self possessed) trying to steal money from unsuspecting homeowners by hiding or misrepresenting the actual number of squares and materials the job will need.
I see that you think just about anybody who has ever laid a shingle is a criminal.
No, but when just 3 out of 4 roof replacements have been deceptive or downright crooked, and some of the ways I'm reading on this forum of how bids are given, I'm very weary of the intent of those boys.... Roofing is hard work, most times very hard work. I'd expected pricing to be base on a good and fair profit margin, considering the degree of hard labor roofing requires.... Hiding the facts, and sweet talking a customer has meant the roof that was sold to the customer by the salesman, and the roof the customer gets are not the same...
I still reserve my opinion until I see the bill, Bill, but I can agree with those in this thread who see you as a customer I would rather not have myself, and would not be surprised to learn that the reason the Lon Smith Roofing Co agreed with your assessment of final billing amount was to be shed of the relationship and put it all behind as water under the bridge.
When a company makes mistakes, it's one thing, but it's how they fix them that proves their integrity. Lon Smith Company is on State Farm's list of companies they go to when a policy holder has damage. Lon Smith faxed their bid into the insurance company, the company agreed to it, and except for price increases covering the materials needing to be increased, the insurance company expected them to do the work they bid with the amount of materials they bid to use. I paid them for what they used, caught mistakes in amounts and wrong materials, and the roofing company got exactly what it took to do the job, plus 15% waste... HOW IN THE WORLD can that be wrong?
Show me facts, experience, and fair play, and I'll help anyone. Twist the numbers, hide the correct measurements, use derogatory statements, or duck the issue of honesty when asked, and I'll take issue with every one of them, on this forum or in daily life.
For all those that do good work for a good day's pay, I applaud your work and your ethics. You make the world a better place!!! For all those others that lie, cheat, and steal homeowner's money, know that it's my Mission to educate the neighbors, civic clubs, and newspaper editors in ways to spot the bottom feeders and the greedy roof salesmen in white collars....
And as you said yourself: "If you don't like that, then go back to second grade..." ;>)
Bill
Edited 6/8/2009 4:31 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 6/8/2009 4:32 pm ET by BilljustBill
You've blown a lot of wind, but you've never answered this question and it has been posed many times.
WOULD YOU PAY FOR 13 SQUARE MORE IF THE CONTRACTOR NEEDED TO ORDER 13 SQUARE MORE?
SO YOU REFUNDED THE DIFFERENCE FOR THE 13 SQ OVERBILLING TO sTATE fARM, RIGHT?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
SO YOU REFUNDED THE DIFFERENCE FOR THE 13 SQ OVERBILLING TO sTATE fARM, RIGHT?
Yes, and the refund/adjustment went back into the house in the form of paying for a portion of the decking repairs with the new plywood overlay decking....
"SO YOU REFUNDED THE DIFFERENCE FOR THE 13 SQ OVERBILLING TO sTATE fARM, RIGHT?Yes, and the refund/adjustment went back into the house in the form of paying for a portion of the decking repairs with the new plywood overlay decking...."So.........
The money did not go back to State Farm. It went into your pocket in the form of deck replacement. Deck replacement is a category that the insurance companies (State Farm included) do not pay for.After being involved in several hundred storm claims the last 2 years I know this is true. The customer is to pay for deck replacement.You and your roof company took the material overage that you discovered, and made a deal to use that extra money to pay for the wood replacement you were supposed to pay for out of your own pocket. They keep the money in house, and you get a freebie.Your integrity goes as far as your pocketbook.......If for some reason your adjuster okayed the deck replacement, that would have been handled as a supplement if not included in the original scope.I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES WILL NOT PAY FOR MORE SQUARE FOOTAGE THAN A HOUSE ACTUALLY IS, IF THAT INFORMATION IS BROUGHT TO THEIR ATTENTION! Did your roofing company pay for your deductible as well?Did they pay for a shingle upgrade?John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
For what you 'think' you know about my roofing problems, I can understand your attitude and reaction.... In my years dealing with Middle School kids and parents, based on 'what information went home', I'd be upset, too. When Mom or Dad came in I listened and then lay out "the rest of the story", and not in a condescending manner, but a joint effort to help the child...
Did your roofing company pay for your deductible as well?
Did they pay for a shingle upgrade?
I paid my own deductibles.... In Texas and with my insurance company, my "Deductible" is really in two parts: There is a 1% wind and hail deductible applied once, no matter how many insured buildings you have. Then, there the policy deductible that was $500, which was taken out of all the hail damages of other property like my riding mower, outside light fixtures, solar/low voltage lighting, etc.
I paid for the upgrade. Both the decking and the shingle upgrade was MY choice and it was clearly written in the contract as the "customer is paying for"...
As the oil prices shot up to $145, and economy was on unknown ground and rapidly going down, I realized that this might be the last roof for a long time. With the insurance's help due to the hailstorm, they were paying $170 a square to replace my 30yr Elk roof, so by learning about Impact Resistant shingles and booting the extra $31 a square, it was an investment. With all the Unknown factors in the future, with GAF/ELK's Armor Shield II shingle, I would have a good long term roof, pending any more storms... My insurance agent told me that I could/would receive at least $365.00 each coming year off my homeowners' policy, so paying the extra now would pay for it self in four years. (Turned out it saved me $503 a year)
But before I finished my new roof, I knew that the 50 yr. old 1x8 decking needed to be upgraded so the upgraded shingles would have a good base to be installed over. Plus, I considered a future re-deck/overlay cost would most likely be more in the coming years... With information and positive help from Breaktime, I paid for 1/2" three-ply sheathing as the roofing company bid it at $101. a square...
Six months from the date of the hailstorm, the old roof was removed, along with the 14yr.old felt. The roofing crew's supervisor had to be told to remove what most likely was the original 1957-8 felt before the new decking was to be overlaid...leaving it might have trapped moisture... When it came up that morning to begin, an October Norther had hit, and that layer of the old felt came up in pieces, much of it the size of baseballs or smaller. They blew everywhere and when gusts hit the stuff, it looked like black snow coming down. I got to see the outside of the original pine decking and found water/rot issues on this 3/12 pitch roof....
Deck replacement is a category that the insurance companies (State Farm included) do not pay for.
That isn't true... If there are bad spots like water damage caused, then they pay not only for repairs, but also on the leaks/damages near the ridge line chimney and the two room's ceiling where they leaked after the hailstorm... The company Inspector rubbed his face and said that the 1x8 pine decking was hard to find and suggested I leave the soft spot areas and just deck over it, including the big holes where the roof turbines were. With the possibility that this roofing job had to last, and the troubled economy, it made me feel I should repair all those issues before the new decking was overlaid and while I could. So, I told him in order to keep the crew working, I had many sheets of 3/4" exterior plywood that I would furnish to repair all the defects and for better support and nailing, replacing two rafter widths of each of the four old 14" roof turbine holes.... With about 35 squares, using the 13 shingle squares' overage to cover repairs of the rotten and soft spots of the original, I still was paying for the rest of the decking costs and all of the repair materials.... So, the money went for legitimate repairs, and as listed in the contract, I paid for all the upgrades.
Your integrity goes as far as your pocketbook.......
Now you have the rest of the story, so any changes to your point of view? Consider who's integrity/pocketbook is the real issue.
If I hadn't watched, questioned, and required those areas listed in the contract, not only I would have gotten a different quality of roof than I contracted for...but also the roofing company would have gotten paid for materials never used....and for sure very few, if any, people outside the company would have known the whole story if I had used your lump sum contract.
Piffin,
I've sent you two communications to the roofing company with PDF attachments, so you'll see what they adjusted and the final billing. Let me know what you think.
Bill
Bill ,
Why not share with all of us ???
Heck Slatesman, the numbers of bad guys out there is scary....
I'll deferr to Piffin's review of what was done and what was paid for as the next best thing... ;>)
Bill
I am out of town with hard access to my email right now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's ok, I know you'll review it and get back to me when there's time for you.
Bill
Piffin, Lon Smith is a huge roofing company that doesn't need to quiver about 13 squares. Right now, here in Austin (they are a Dallas firm) they probably have more than 100 roofing signs in the neighborhoods that we are working. It wouldn't surprise me if they have a million dollars worth of work booked here in Austin.
It would cost them more than 10k to argue about that 13 square even if they won.
In over 35 years,I have NEVER contracted with a roof with a homeowner on a per square price. I only use fixed prices, that purposefully do not set quantities for anything.
even a season vet gets taken once in a while. I had my own home done and the guy quoted 33 squares and then hit me up fro 35 squares(among other additional fees) and wanted the balance. Said his price was based on squares, not fixed price.
Sometimes you just throw up your hands and walk away shaking your head thinking "shame on me...just pay him and make him go away.. It just ain't fricken worth arguing"
You might consider a non-confrontational meeting to start.
"We've always done it that way" is not a good enough answer. (Frankly, when you consider the number of houses and decades/centuries before the product existed, the risk seems small. But if a contractor is planning to exercise that sort of "judgment on your behalf" I think he should disclose up front.*)
Ask him what he proposes. Maybe there was a mistake he was unaware of - new guy(s) on the job when he was off at another site. (I've heard of "new guys" ripping off materials for their side jobs....)
If nothing, getting quotes from 2-3 other roofers, try a second time with the original guy.
Consider as an option having another contractor correct the problem and going after guy # 1 in small claims - if it fits.
OTOH: if you're not uncomfortable, consider asking for some money back from guy number one, help him avoid bad word of mouth.
There's a difference for him and you between "Roofer Jones screwed up but backed up his work when I asked" and "Roofer Jones screwed up and didn't back up his work when I asked"
===================
* FWIW, roofing is the single most likely area of a house I might find fraud - most commonly claims that there would be a tearoff when there wasn't. As an HI, I see that 2-4 times a year.
Of course, there are plenty of honest stalwart roofers - all lines of businesses have ripoff artists -- my own has more than its share, IMO
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
That's along the lines of what I'm presently thinking.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike, I think you probably should have thought about how the low bidder was going to make up the 25% less money than the other contractors.
I'd be very surprised if there weren't more shortcuts taken.
What's that old saying...."you get what you pay for"?
As I said, the bid wasn't low when looked at on a per square basis. I think the others didn't really want the job (not an easy roof - hip with dormers, steep and high, with two layers to tear off) -- two years ago, thing were a bit different, housing was still hot, and a lot of contractors were overbidding since jobs were plentiful. The lowest bid doesn't necessarily mean corners will be cut if the bid price is otherwise reasonable as this one was. Also, the job is otherwise top notch and I know the materials are good since they were delivered well prior to the roofer starting. Like I said, it ain't gonna leak.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
"the bid wasn't low when looked at on a per square basis."A. It was lower by 33% - over 50%.B. Per sq. basis?? So now you are the arbiter of what trades should charge - regardless of the economy?C. $12,000 is a lot of money. So is $5,000. That's got nothing to do with what the market can bear.D. 2 years ago everyone had work and everyone needed work done. Prices went up - Labor, materials, insurance... That's when you had work done and were competing (yes, competing) with the next customer for the roofer's time. E. You agreed to his price - but knew (deep down inside) that either the roofer was i) not a good businessman, ii) cutting corners, iii) new in the biz and didn't know the market, iv) simply a swell guy who wanted to give you a $4K-$7K discount.F. As I stated earlier - he was wrong to omit the I&WS. That's a fact. You though, were not only the HO but were/ are the GC. Therefore, you are ALSO responsible for the work.Not trying to be a hard ####. Just putting things into perspective. Everyone thinks being a GC is a way to make/ save money. However it is also a skill, a way to loose money and a liability. What HO's rarely acknowledge is that sooner or later, they have to step up to the plate.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
"Everyone thinks being a GC is a way to make/ save money. However it is also a skill, a way to loose money and a liability. What HO's rarely acknowledge is that sooner or later, they have to step up to the plate."In this case there happens to be an addition in addition to the replacing an existing roof.But 97% of roof replacements are just that, replacements.Are you saying that in those cases when a HO gets a roof replaced that they need to hire a GC just to hire the roofer so that you are sure of getting what you contracted for?Most Roofers advertise themself as GC - not as subs..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Some seem to be berating Mike because he went with a "lowball" figure. Even if he "saved" 5K by shopping around does not mean he got a Corner-cutting price.
Many posts about pricing have stated and restated that contractors should not be charging based on what others are charging, but on what you NEED to charge based on your OWN projections.
His particular contractor determined his own pricing and that's what he quoted.
If others are higher that's there own pricing strategy and not something to hold over the customers head because he did not feel he was required to pay the higher price just because there were a preponderance (2, maybe?) charging what they needed or thought the market would bear.
The roofing contractor could very well have left money on the table but that's his call or mistake or genuine pricing strategy.
However, at the least, he should have followed what was agreed to in the contract and Mike should hold his feet to the fire. That's one way to get the contractor to pay attention to what happens on his jobs and to future business and maybe then he would rethink his pricing.
I wasn't "trying to save money" by being a GC -- I was building a pretty extensive addition for which I obviously needed to pull permits. I didn't want to do the roof (or the foundation, for that matter), so I hired it out.
As for the price per square, I'm not trying to be the arbitrator of prices, but I've been around more than a little while and I know what roofers generally charge. The two other bidders were clearly hi-balling. I thought the price quoted by the one who got the job was a bit hi, but since the market was hi at the time, I thought it was fair for the work quoted. I did not expect any corner cutting -- I looked at other work this guy did in the neighborhood and got recommendations before hiring him and he's been around a long time.
Are you suggesting that since I did not hire an independant GC, I should not be able to look to the roofer to make it good? Are you saying that if you, as a GC hired a roofing sub, and the HO finds out later that the roofer screwed up, the roofer shouldn't be required to make it good, in full, but that you, as the GC, should have to kick in all or part of the cost of remediation? I don't think so! My guess is that if you were the GC, you'd be on the roofer like white on rice getting him to fix the problem.
What if all I was having done was a new roof -- should I hire a GC just to hire the roofer? How's that any different than my situation? (Yeah I pulled the permits, but no permit is even required to reroof here. Only the new portion was subject to the permit.)
In my book, my responsibility as GC is to make sure the sub does what he's hired to do, not to be his pocketbook if he screws up. Now, if the sub isn't good for it (bankrupt or disappeared), yes, the GC can be liable to the HO. In this case though, the roofer should be able to make this right, so who wears the GC hat doesn't even enter into the picture.
Not trying to get into a pixing match either -- just wanted to respond -- since none of these issues really have much to do about how I should fairly approach the roofer, if at all.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
There's a lot flying around here. FWIW, I do not consider this to be a pixing match. we are having a philosophical discussion about money and liability. I guess on that basis, it can get touchy, especially when, due to the format and our time constraints, we can be a bit more direct than if we were discussing this over a beer or cup of coffee.So,here's what I know and am taking into consideration:1. You are the HO. Fact. 2. This is not just a roofing job. This is and addition which required a new roof (and foundation for that matter). Fact.3. You're the GC. Fact.4. The tripping point in this discussion seems to be what hat you are wearing. I believe that once you decide to wear the GC hat, you can no longer wear the HO hat. Unfortunately it is not a pick and choose world.5. If it was my job, as the GC, I would be just as libel, wait, I would be totally libel for the missing I&WS. You would be calling and/ or suing me, not the roofer. I would, in turn, be calling and/ or suing the roofer. The remedy, from the HO perspective, would sit totally on my shoulders. In addition to overseeing the project and ensuring that the proper materials get used in the proper place, I am responsible for any improper work. That's what I am/ a GC is hired to do. 6. Are there GC's out there who think it's their job to point fingers and never, under any circumstances, accept liability? Sure. But that type of person exists in every profession and shouldn't be looked to for setting a benchmark or standard.7. You have stated more than once, something to the effect of " it's a difficult roof but the price per square was high." Then you state that this is because of the variety/ complexity of the roof. STOP. You do not get complexity for the same price as clear roofing, so don't compare the two. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.8. The roofer gave you a price based on a particular scope of work. He is responsible for that. As the GC, you were/ are responsible for making sure he followed the specifications. Therefore you both SHARE the burden of varying from the specs.HO's/ Clients sometimes go with the lowest price figuring that even though there might/ will be Change Orders and re-doing of work, those costs will be less than the difference between the low bid and next higher bidder. Perhaps this is a viewpoint you should consider.Looking forward to the beer or coffee -Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
OK, based on your analysis, I sue myself, and them myself sues the roofer. Roofer is liable to me either way.
I don't drink coffee, so I guess it'll just have to be beer! ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
"OK, based on your analysis, I sue myself, and them myself sues the roofer. Roofer is liable to me either way."No, that was only half of my analysis. The other half was you share responsibility.Either way, you should call him and hear what he has to say for himself.So, you're in Pittsburgh, PA. Unless you plan on coming to NYC, don't think there's much of a chance we'll be sharing a beer anytime soon. But, if you do come to the city so nice they named it twice, NY, NY - Beers are on me.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
"The other half was you share responsibility."
Not if Myself vs. Roofer results in a judjment against Roofer. In my other life, I'm an attorney, so I know of whence I speak.
Next time I'm in the "Big City", you're on -- but I gotta warn ya -- you could buy a whole case of Pittsburgh beer for the price of one NYC beer. ;-0Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
"you could buy a whole case of Pittsburgh beer for the price of one NYC beer."Another fine example of You get what you pay for! ; ) You're an attorney? Yikes! Since when is "Arts & Entertainment" a euphemism for lawyer? That's what your Profile states.Beers are still offered though. We might have to rough you up a bit before we go to the bar though - just so you'll fit in. Otherwise my peers might think I'm in legal trouble. Ha,ha, ha!Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Dunno how/why "Arts & Entertainment" keeps showing up there -- I keep changing it, and it keeps changing back. Maybe they're trying to tell me something?
Last trip to NYC was a couple of years ago -- I had a case out on Long Island. Stayed in Garden City -- nice neck of the woods.
And don't go knocking our 'Burgh bars -- they sell the exact same beer here as in the City, just at reasonable prices. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I'm looking at this from a state that has some rules to follow re: contracting.
A homeowner is allowed to pull his own permits and follow the required engineering and call for inspections. The rule to follow with homeowner pulled permits is that the HOMEOWNER is the one required to do all the work.
Should he decide to farm out some or all of the work he must hire a person/firm licensed by the state to do whatever. That person/firm is REQUIRED to pull all his own permits. The homeowner is then out of the so-called GC business and is just the guy who pays the freight. He wastes his money if he pulls his own permits, since almost everything is a state licensed activity. The licensed person is the one on the hook for doing the job correctly and seeing to it that his permits are in order and all inspections are called in and passed.
With larger more complex jobs, a GC is hired for his knowledge, pulls the basic building permit and is beholden to the homeowner and although allowed to perform certain aspects of the trades will normally sub out the required trades (electrical, plumbing, HVAC). IF his permitted job involves a roof, he is allowed to complete that portion of the structure he built. If it needs to be tied in to an existing roof he must sub the tie-in to a licensed roofer. If it is a combo job, a licensed roofer must do the work on the existing.
Back to the homeowner - He does not assume any responsibility as a GC, as was stated, because, not holding the required license, the state concludes he would not have the specialized knowledge to know what to oversee when hiring a contractor to do whatever work is done.
He does have the right to expect a licensed contractor to perform according to accepted and proscribed practices and to follow additional specs in a contract, and if the contract is not absolutely clear and if there is a dispute the state will normally back the homeowner.
Mike, I've read about the first 50 or so replys regarding your situation. one question I have is what kind or warranty did the roofer give you and was it in writing? I'm sure he will warrant his work (or in your case the lack of the i&w shield) I would start with the warranty, get him out to the house and then have him explain why there is no ice and water installed when you clearly have contracted for it. you never know, the guy may realize what the ramifications may be if you exercise your rights as a consumer, if he gets cocky tell him your first stop will be with the BBB, then file a complaint with them (anyone with brains always checks with the BBB before hiring a contractor) ultimatly sueing him in court for contractor fraud, this can really do harm to a business nowadays. good luck!
Warranty's not the issue -- it's breach of contract. It's not that what he did isn't working right -- it's that he didn't do what he was contractually required to do.
He seems like he'll work with me at this point -- I'm waiting for him to get over to look at the roof. We'll see.
FWIW, my first stop will not be the BBB since that's pretty useless. I have two plans for a fallback. First, I have a slam-dunk court case. No big deal, just a couple of hours putting together the paperwork and filing it, and a 1/2 day in court -- just another day at the office. Second, PA is instituting contractor registration at the end of this month. Not really a license, just a database so consumers can check on the contractor's track record. I'm thinkin' he won't want the first entry in the database to be that he defrauded a customer by eliminating required elements of the job that were not easily visible.
But again, I'm guessing he'll be a good guy about it and we'll reach an accomodation.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
No big deal, just a couple of hours putting together the paperwork and filing it, and a 1/2 day in court -- just another day at the office.
Mike,
I am wondering about the legal process you may have to go through.
What is the department name in the courthouse where you start? What does it generally cost at the courthouse to file for a court hearing?
When you are the winner, what does the loser have to pay and when do they have to pay it?
Thanks,
Bill
Did you miss the post where he stated he was a lawyer?
:>)... I'm hoping he'll teach us.... ;>)
PA Legal procedure in a nutshell:
Since this is below $25K, you start at either the District Justice (JP), or better, Arbitration Division of Common Pleas Court. It costs around $100 to file. A hearing is scheduled upon filing, about 4 months out currently. Loser generally (but not always) has to pay "costs" -- this is filing fees and some other fees/expenses, but NOT attorney's fees. (But my attorney's fees are real cheap, LOL.) The loser can appeal to Common Pleas Court where it is heard by a judge and, if demanded, jury, but usually just a judge for this size case. This involves around a 9-month wait currently. The cost to appeal is a bit variable depending on how the arbitration session was done, but it's generally around $100 again. Again, that's a cost that the loser usually bears.
If not appealed, the Arbitration Award can be converted into a judgment which can be collected in the normal course -- levying on property. If appealed, the Common Pleas judgment can be levied upon similarly. (Of course, there is always an appeal to Superior Court and, possibly PA Supreme Court. But to pursue those, the appellant usually gotta post a bond in the amount of the judgment.)
Note that this is NOT likely how things work in the Great State of Texas.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Edited 6/10/2009 7:11 pm ET by MikeHennessy
Mike,Just wondering if/ how this has been resolved?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Per a neighbor's report, the roofer showed up yesterday, climbed up and peeked here & there under the shingles. I put a call into him today to see what he had to say, but I got the machine & he hasn't called back yet. I'll post when I hear from him.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
You should certainly get some money back.
"You should certainly get some money back."
This week, I'm gonna measure and figure how much Grace shoulda been used, get a price, and use that as a starting point.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike -
I'm late to the dance, but I've got some questions:
You say the "spec's" called for 2 rows of I&WS. Did the roofer's contract specify that? When I submit a proposal to a GC (or anyone for that matter), I spec what I'm going to do. It's the GC's responsibility to review my proposal and make sure I've proposed to spec.
Have you checked the entire roof? Is it possible one plane or area got missed and the rest of the I&WS is there?
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Yep. My specs call for it since the BI demanded it, and I just dug out the roofer's contract tonight and made sure -- his contract specs do include it as a separate line item. (But the contract price was not itemized by line item.)
I also double-checked in another spot tonight. Nada. Shingles, paper, deck. Period.
I put a call into him tonight and I hope he's straight with me when he calls back. I'd REALLY like to settle this amicably, but I'm fully prepared to nail him if he's not responsive. Heck, that would be just another day in the saddle for me.
Oh, and I mis-remembered the price -- it was over $14K for the roof.
Do you agree with my assessment that, given the roof slope and no ice dam history, the lacking I&W shouldn't be a big enough issue that would require a tear up and re-do? I totally respect your opinion so if you say "no real worries", the negotiations stand a lot better chance of going smoothly. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Do you agree with my assessment that, given the roof slope and no ice dam history, the lacking I&W shouldn't be a big enough issue that would require a tear up and re-do?
Kind of, but here I&WS is not a code issue. If it was code, it should have been automatic. If you've never had ice dam problems, I&WS is probably superfluous. Installing it now woulld likely leave visible "tracks" in a 2 y/o roof. I don't think I'd try to add it now but, you paid for it.
I'm curious about the roofer's reply.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I and W is to help stop water damage from ice dams.
even some of the Grace info says it helps prevent ice dams ... which ain't true.
it's simply to have some sticky rubber on top of the wood so if the ice dam occurs and melts ... water damage doesn't occure.
So ... insulate properly and you'll avoid ice dams.
If you haven't had any in the last 2 winters, I'd guess you're OK.
so ... aside from over regulation ... not really needed.
That said ... U asked for it, he said he'd give it, and you paid for it.
In my limited legal experience ... I'd say he owes U some ice and water shield.
which ... U probably don't want now ... and he probably don't wanna install now.
btw ... I do have a great lawyer on speed-email I could get ya in touch with!
Me ... I'd want my money. And I'd fully expect to get it.
And as a sometimes "real GC" .... there's plenty of stuff subs do that I don't stand around watching them do so I know the right stuff was used in the right order. That's kinda why I use subs ... 'cause I don't have time to stand around and watch everyone else work.
What's Frankie do when both the plumber and electrician show up at the same time!
and what if they show up while the roofer is up there?
anyways ... I'd want some money refunded.
btw ... after I set my schedule for this past Monday ...
on Sunday Night I realized ... that was the 1st. Sherrif sale day. I had to miss it.
Not sure what's going on with that house at the moment.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Insulation's decent & no ice dams for the last 50 years (Mom's house) so I'm not worried there. Mostly, I'm ticked at myself for apparently misreading this guy -- I liked him and thought he'd be OK when I couldn't stand around and watch him lay shingles. But who knows -- he may still be OK. How he handles it when he calls me back will tell that tale.
If he' not straight, screw the Court -- I just send Big Scarry Bob out to see him. ;-)
"Sherrif sale day. I had to miss it."
Chances are it didn't sell on the first go-round so it'll come up again. Second sale is what you want anyhooz.
BTW, got any need for some scaffolding -- mason frames? I've got some nice, almost new, sets I had to pick up for some chimbly work that I'm looking to unload -- outa storage space.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
I didn't read through all of the responses, so this might have already been asked:
Did he possibly install felt paper on top of I & W shield? Would be redundant if he did, but might have done it, especially if it was hot weather, in order to keep from scarring up the I & W.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Nope. Felt's there, but I lifted it up in a few spots to check. Nothin' but wood underneath.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
That sounds a bit scary to me. If you can lift shingles and felt at the eave, then they did not nail properly and wind could damage that roof, unless you are well shelterd by trees or other buildings
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't say it was easy! I *carefully* pried it up at the edge a couple of inches in a couple spots to check. The felt was pretty well adhered to the roof (turns out there are drip edges -- they're just integral to the guttering so I missed 'em the first look) and the shingles were well adhered to the felt.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
After reading most of this thread, I am happy that 99% of my work comes from previous customers or referrals.
It's also good to see that you do have drip edge. I have seen houses without it. It seems to be in the Carolinas. Maybe it is done that way in other areas as well. I just can't imagine not using drip edge.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
play it as you see fit.
Perhaps a written extended 10 or 15 year warranty.
Perhaps call the BI and ask him a hypothetical question and ask how he would address it.
perhaps just call the guy up and talk to him. See what he has to say. If he is a good guy and deals with it right, you just want some protection, right? If he is a jerk and brushes you off, plan b
Well, the roofer called last nite. He says there IS an ice barrier at all edges, valleys, etc. But it's not Grace I&W Shield -- it's an Owens Corning product.
Personally, I've never used or seen the stuff until I picked up the edges of my shingles and thought it was felt. It's apparently a fiberglass mat. It sure doesn't stick to the deck, or stretch, or seal like the Grace product. If anybody has the lowdown on the product, I'd be interested in hearing it.
That said, I didn't specify a brand name, so I couldn't make a big deal out of this if I wanted to -- which I don't. Like I said, steep roof, no signs of leaking after 70 yrs of cheap 3-tabs, so I won't lose any sleep over this one.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
You might ask Mike Smith. He's got a shot of his Ice & Water underlayment in the Garage to Guest Suite thread. Looked like felt to me, so I asked, and it wasn't.
View Image'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
It sure doesn't stick to the deck, or stretch, or seal like the Grace product. If anybody has the lowdown on the product, I'd be interested in hearing it.
I've never used Grace - they don't sell it here. But I have used OC, Certainteed, GAF, and Tamko I&WS (and several other brands I can't remember). The OC is the least desirable. It's stiffer and less sticky, but it's not likely I'd confuse it with felt.
Why don't you pull a few shingles and take me a picture?http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks. May just do that -- I'll be up there later today (if the rain holds off) to finish off that dormer I'm rebuilding anyhoo.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
If it isn't stuck down, maybe they neglected to peel the release backing off?
There's no backing on it. I noticed that when I lifted it up to check for I&W. It was stuck down a bit, but nothing like the Grace woulda been. It wasn't much of a problem to lift -- kinda like lifting a shingle where the glue releases with a just a bit of coaxing.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I am not a roofer/contractor or anything. But from needing a roof for the last five years and checking the roofing section at Lowe's and Home Depot constantly, I noticed that the OC equivalent was called Weatherguard and appeared to be junk. You could take your fingers and tear it. To me it did appear to be more like a fiberglass mat. But, when I had my roof done a couple months ago, they used the OC Weatherguard and it is said on the box improved and tear resistent. Indeed, it was more rubberry, stickier and seemed like a far better product. Maybe you got the before improvement type. Hope this helps. Tony
These products are also available with and without granuals on them. Without the granuals, it might be passable as felt to the untrained eye.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Certainteed wintergaurd with the sand finish could easily look like felt.I used to use Gaf Weatherwatch almost exclusively. One day I did a repair for a customer--reflashing a chimney----wrapped the chimney in weatherwatch-------5-6 years later it was time to finally replace the entire roof----when we tore off the shingles I was EASILY able to pull the weatherwatch right off the deckGrace is available here------but rarely used--it's much more expensive---over $120/roll and MUCH more difficult to install----especially on non-walkable roofs----plus its's quite slippery(dangerous) on walkable roofs. I wouldn't fault any roofer for NOT using Grace---and tear strength of ice gaurd is irrelevant. I have used several rolls of grace on my current project---it's a superior product despite it's real inconvienences, and i have learned a few tricks to get it down better. I think mike owes the roofer an apology---he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up---when in fact Mike was the guy who was wrong.
stephen
I think mike owes the roofer an apology---he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up---when in fact Mike was the guy who was wrong.
And I'm sure he wiill. I suspected this might be the scenario from the gitgo. But, my guys have made some mistakes like that and I've had customers ask if I did something that clearly wasn't in the contract after the job was done. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
steve,"Overall, the job looks good - neat and professional and no leaks. But while doing some unrelated work earlier this week, I discovered that the roofer, er, "forgot" to put down any I&W shield"that was from first post. Mike has been very patient and civil and open minded about this, IMO. A guy we'd all like to have as a customer - not that we would, since he chose the lowest bid.So "he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up" isn't really accurate I think. It was billjustbill who was jumping up and down in his eagerness to proclaim this roofer a thief/crook/con-artist, or whatever.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen----what is the title of this thread?
" roofer screw up---what would you do?"you can't proclaim the guy a screw up much quicker than that, can you? and yes-- mike was civil---- but there was also a good bit of talk about making the contractors life miserable via taking him to court if needed etc. Hey--we all make mistakes----in this case it was Mike and not the roofer.
stephen
dang, i'm supposed actually READ the title?;)It was his overrall tone that I found less than condemning.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So "he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up" isn't really accurate I think. It was billjustbill who was jumping up and down in his eagerness to proclaim this roofer a thief/crook/con-artist, or whatever.
dang, i'm supposed actually READ the title?
;)
It was his overrall tone that I found less than condemning.
Piffin,
I'm not going to let you skid by your comments even though I see you've tried too. Since you brought this issue back, AFTER it reached a leveled understanding for those choosing either "Itemized vs Lump Sum" bids...tell me why you act like you do?
I saw that you read my request for an apology and said I accept it if you were man enough to give one... Instead of using the Private Message or my email to address your words, you posted those comments in public, so then, will I.... I see YOU PASSED and didn't address the apology... 'Guess that says a lot...
Don't drag up "dead horses" with your less than professional comments,("It was billjustbill who was jumping up and down...") or when you do, apologize for them and go on...
So, what say you, Mr. Piffin???????
BilljustBill
You are so full of it...And so full of yourself too. I guess it's one and the same.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
UtOh, Here we go again..........
And just who are you....oh yeah, that Ohio roofer that likes to dream up things, get them totally wrong, and never address your mistakes either...
Stay in Ohio, Texas has enough like you..... WHEW WEEEE
Huh, hec, hec......
Edited 6/28/2009 9:46 pm ET by BilljustBill
I'm not going to pile on BilljustBill but I do want to tell you that we have sold about 25 jobs in the last month or so and 95% HAD NO NUMBER on the contract LOL! No squares and no dollars. And...imagine this...no one has gotten screwed! I've got five of them built and the customers are happy as clams!
Not to beat a dead horse here, but I believe you are the crook Bill.If you want per square pricing for a roof, then you should have climbed up on the roof and measured it yourself before you ever had any roofing company come out there. Then you could have come up with an exact cost. Instead you want to take someones numbers, agreed with their contract and then came back and balked. Your insurance company had no problem with the bid submitted, however, you got greedy and saw that roofing company was ahead of their estimate and decided you wanted that extra for yourself to use on projects of your choosing. Who's the crook ???
I think you're lost in the twist and turns of some other posters...
Go back a read what the overcharge went to....decking damage and decking repair....
No crook, just accuracy and honesty....
Bill ;>)
Great news on the 25 jobs... Only you will know the quality and fairness of the new roof being put on. I hope the jobs are so good that they speak with more referrals and more roofing jobs for you.
I'm wondering what 35sq. tear-off, with 30lb. felt, 60' ridge venting, and GAF starter shingles, 2sq. of Ice and water on the valleys, with their Armor Shield II with 6 nails per shingle on a 3/12 roof is going for currently in your part of Texas?
Bill
Is that 35 squares, or 41 squares delivered with 6 taken back to the supplier?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Is that 35 squares, or 41 squares delivered with 6 taken back to the supplier?
?????
With a 10% waste factored in for half hip/gable vent eves, I'm paying for 35 sq only.... ;>)
a hip/valley roof takes 15% waste factor.You are well on the way to taking this thread to the same perpetual level as Elvis sightings, MJ worship, and billy mays famous phrases. you will have your own unique claim on the minds of the masses
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
YupJohn Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
So what you're sayin is
Wait there's more!
Stop making fun of billjustbill and discussing Elvis in the same sentence.
Palin went off with Elvis to do some sportfishing after her speech yesterday. They were overheard discussing roofing techniques.
who's discussing Elvis?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You mentioned him.
Thank you, thank you, Thank you very much
But I wasn't 'discussing' him. only a sidelong mention while discussing another subject.The problem with subtle humour is that if it needs explanation, it is no longer subtle and the effect of being low key is lost. Then it is no longer humorous.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It depends upon the customer. The roof and all it's components are the easy factor to price. The customer, and their nuances can drive the price high or get it real low. I discounted substantially the other day to a nice little old lady on SS but I wouldn't be inclined to be so generous to anyone that showed any signs of wealth.
The other factor is jobsite access/condidtions.
So, it's safe to say that there isn't one "correct" price on the job you've scoped.
One thing is for sure: since the client is asking for the upgraded Armour Shield, I know they aren't hurting for money.
My "ballpark" would be about $350 -$375 per sq. I'd have to get serious and look things up before I put that number on paper though.
Did you pay more or less than that for yours?
My "ballpark" would be about $350 -$375 per sq. I'd have to get serious and look things up before I put that number on paper though.
Did you pay more or less than that for yours?
About this time last year was when the bid was being put together, and then by the time all the shortages of shingles were handled and getting in line for the crew's schedule, it was installed last October.
The bid was $31 a square higher than a 30yr arch. shingle. So paying the difference wasn't a problem when recouping the cost was about three years with the $503 lower homeowners insurance premium due to the Armor Shield II impact resistant shingle. For the specs I listed for you to consider, back then it was bid as $210 a square....
It's nice to know that if I had waited, it appears it would have cost much more these days.
Thanks,
Bill
Hes a retired school administrator with nothing to do but stand around with his nose up all day.
Reminds me of the old adage:Those can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Reminds me of the old adage:
Those can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.
Here's a NEW adage: The title of this thread says it all...
You have good roofing people and bad ones...
School adminstrators are the same way...
The way I did my job was one that helped not only the child, the teacher, but also offered night classes for the parents.... So, you can't put me into you "Simple" outlook...
But, seeing your outlook, and using your own words in your background page...
"Mind over matter; I don't mind, and you don't matter"
Edited 6/28/2009 10:43 pm ET by BilljustBill
Thats what all teachers and admin say. Then why do schools suck so bad?
I've roofed for 20 years and I would hate to have you for a customer. Retired like to set out and pick the work apart, without knowing diddly.
You're right I don't mind and you don't matter. No charge for you using my line. You'd probably want to pay by the letter.
Then why do schools suck so bad?
Don't count me in those kinds of schools and I won't count you in the class of roofer/crooks I've had to deal with in the past 32 years....
With over 500 kids in my school, I did more than the average campus administrator to make the lives better and happier for the kids, parents, faculty and staff, and community businesses that partnered with my campus... I still live in the community where I worked for 30+ years and the kids I had, and their kids I had, come up and say hello. If things were like you describe, I know that couldn't/wouldn't happen.... Research says that 3% of the public will never be happy with anything done, but 97% is a record I'm proud of....
Retired like to set out and pick the work apart, without knowing diddly.
How quick you are to say that....Because when I wasn't home to WATCH the job, that's when there was trouble!!! So, apparently I'm able to see where shortcuts and outright "Mistakes" are being done...so I do know a bit more than "diddly" the "Professional Roofers" should have seen and corrected... I got a contract for work and materials and that's ALL I wanted before paying the money...
Get a six pack and a couple of hours of therapy, I worry about you and a few others...
Bill
Did you have them pull the little plastic strips off before they laid the shingles?
Did you have them pull the little plastic strips off before they laid the shingles?
Make that 4 hours of therapy and additional class hours for Roofing 101..... ;>)
I had a lady tell me that her previous roofer screwed up because he didn't pull all those strips off the roof. She refused to believe me when I explained that she was misinformed about their existence. After a brief conversation with her, I decided to skip the presentation and I just left.
I had a couple make me pull the strips off. I had 2 12 year-olds start pulling the strips. When the homeowner showed up, I explained why that wasn't necessary, laid the shingles out to show them, and that finally was the end of it.
Little plastic things go everywhere.
If you look carefully at the mfrs instructions, it says do not remove strips.I have had many customers insist it must be done. I've even referred them to the regional shingle rep. But I have never pulled them off to humor them. A typical 30 sq roof would produce almost 2500 strips-insane to deal with that!John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I have no intention of apologizing for pointing out how you had made an #### of yourself in deep contrast to how well Mike conducted himself.
If you want to keep on underlining the fact and making it clear, go right ahead, but I have nothing to apologize for.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why I thought I'd be dealing with someone that.....
Oh well, I'll move on to other topics and chalk it up to the return of your Irritable Bowel problem.....
Do nuts irritate your bowel?Just curious.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So "he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up" isn't really accurate I think. It was billjustbill who was jumping up and down in his eagerness to proclaim this roofer a thief/crook/con-artist, or whatever.
Piffin,
Based on the description of Mike's inspection, and based on my experience with less than honest roofers, I made my point of view known...
I'll accept your apology if you're man enough to give one... ;>)
Bill
"I think mike owes the roofer an apology---he was pretty quick to proclaim the guy a screw-up---when in fact Mike was the guy who was wrong."Who he is to apologize to?He never named the roofer. And from what he has said he never accused the roofer.Sounds like like a "well I am going to show so and so and make it pay", but it is only a way of blowing off steam. Not attacking the other person or accusing them. And when he finds out the answer he response is OK.Certainly something that I have done before and seen many other do.But other times the response is not OK and then time to take action and not just blow off steam.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I think he should at least acknowledge to the roofer that his mistake cost the roofer some time.How would you like it if you designed a control system for some company, and they called you back 24 months later to ask you to redo some calculations on the circuits or whatever it is that you did. No indication of any problem, they would just feel better if you were to spend a couple of hours (for free) to verify that you did what you said you would do?I am not saying that good customer service is not necessary, that's certainly not the case. However, it reminds me of the time a customer, from about two years prior, called me in to deal with a "smoke detector" issue. The smoke detector would not stop beeping (low battery alert), they told me. The beeping in the basement continued even when they physically removed the SD from the basement and took it upstairs. Surely, we did something wrong, maybe we buried a SD in the wall or something like that.I made a site visit and found that they had a small, battery operated water alarm (two probes on the bottom of a plastic cylinder- if water was on the floor the circuit would close and a beeper would alert the occupants to water on the floor) under their utility sink had a low battery. Of course, this was something that they placed there- I had never seen this thing again.So I took about 1.5 hours out of my day to find this out for them. No hard feeling whatsoever, they apologized for not catching that themselves and I breathed a sigh of relief that we hadn't made a mistake in the walls. Still, their apology was appropriate in this instance, and I think it is appropriate in Mike's situation as well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That type stuff happens all the time. I've currently got a customer mad at me because one of their downspouts came down during an ice storm. It froze solid and the screws holding it pulled out of the rotten corner board that needed to be replaced before the downspout was hung, but they said "oh no, it just needs to be painted - we'll take care of it". 3 years later the downspout comes loose and we're supposed to replace it - it got bent up in the fall - under warranty, based on the fact that "the last downspouts were installed in 1974 and they stayed up until we replaced them in 2006." Of course they were rusted out galvanized. This house hasn't seen a painter since 1974 either.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
That tune sure sounds familiar.
Grant,
What do you think of GAF's WeatherWatch?
That's pretty much all we use- I didn't really know there was a difference between that stuff and the Grace products. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen the Grace¯ products, except for pictures in periodicals and online.
I haven't seen any indication of problems, but I also haven't checked on any 5 year old WeatherWatch.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It's better than OC, not as good as Tamko and Certainteed, IMHO.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I would not object to him saying that.But you have to admit that two years is much different than a follow 2 weeks later.But you won't believe some of the service issues that I have had. Like calls that from a job that I did 5 years earlier. And it was setup for 3 pumps. But they are now just installing the 3rd pump. And it is not working as planned. And now what I am working on it now 3 generations different and I am trying to remember how to do something with the old system.Fortunately I can do most of the trouble shooting from home. But it like pulling hair and teeth. I give them a DETAILED list of test with EXACT steps to do ONE BY ONE. But I get the call back that they did B and C and replaced something and this is the results. NO - THAT MEANINGLESS. Do it again STEP BY STEP AND IN THE EXACT ORDER IT TELL YOU.And when this is going on I am usually on call from 7 am to 9 pm and of course the return call comes in at just as I am cooking dimmer.Although I have had to make a couple of worthless long distance trips.And before I could do the update via email, lost of trips to UPS, Fedex, and the airport..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,
I might be misunderstanding you, but:
"But you have to admit that two years is much different than a follow 2 weeks later."
In the first post, Mike H. said the roof was "installed about two years ago".
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You are right. I thought that this was something that was just done..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
jon-- i think you and Grant are correct. this stuff happens all the time---------rarely if ever does the customer apologise for wasting your time. last year---condo association-------over the past 12 years or so I have replaced 30 roofs in this developement------( one left to go)------T 1-11 siding is rotting out at the bottom----new condo association President calls me and says" out head maintenace guy says you didn't install any step flashing on building 141"----we since I personally stepped that wall-- I know hes wrong-----but now I have to go out, put up a ladder---take the condo president up on the roof and show him the new step flashing---------not so much as an "oops,my bad" on his part----as if after 12 years and 30 some roofs i am gonna screw him on the 2nd to last project???? this year-----We do a large new roof and spouting job for a customer----a month later she calls and complains that the water isn't going into the underground drains and that i must have done something wrong.---- 40 minute drive each way---to discover that AFTER we completed the work----she had concrete work done, a new sidewalk and patio and the concrete guys disconected MY installation----slightly moved the downspout drain---and then botched the hook up---How is thisa MY fault?------- but as I told the customers husband--since i am here I would rather correct the situation than argue about it------of COURSE the 3x4 downspout is damaged and needs replaced------not so much as a thank you. I don't even want to talk about the customer who noticed her carpet was wet in her first floor dining room---she was positive my roof was leaking----- of course no water leaked in UPSTAIRS above the wet carpet------ and she didn't notice that she had left a window open RIGHT next to the puddle during the previous nights rainstorm-------------------
never a thanks-never an apology.
stephen
When I get them with egg on their faces like that step flash, I know I'm not getting an apology, but they are on the defensive just the same because they know they are on the wrong side of it. So that is when I press them for anything else I can get - like "Didn't you say you could get that car moved out of that space for me? Now is a good time to take care of that." or How about a deposit on that next job while I am here now"...One of the very few tiomes I did not get paid was on a repair job for fifty bucks.I did a roof for a Harvard Prof. He was one of those guys who introduces me all around as his very good friend Paul...tho he'd only met me the week before
Those kind of guy are almost always trouble.Anyways, when I re-roofed it, I told him he needed to get a mason to re-top the chimney. There was no flue liner and the mortar was so gone, I could move half the bricks.I also pointed out that he had a foundation problem at front of the house letting water in.So six months later, I noticed somebody there replacing that part of the foundation.two years after I re-roofed it, he calls to say the chimney is leaking. I ask Did you ever get a mason to re-top it?no, but could you check and do something to keep the water out for another few months?so I spend an hour setting up rigging - tall steep job - and ten minutes working the lead back into place and caulking, which was hard to do without knocking the whole top off. When the house was jacked up to do the foundation, it ended up about an inch higher, but the chimney was still same elevation...When I asked to get paid, he exploded into a pile of exclamations about how his roofer in Mass guarantees HIS work for ten years and it must be my fault, blah, blah, blah and he was no going to pay the fifty bucks.I have gotten full entertainment value out of him tho. Whenever I ran into him, I asked point blank if he was still screwing tradesmen out of their earnings. I have him well trained now. He can turn on a dime when he catches sight of me! It's priceless.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"since i am here I would rather correct the situation "Did you first mention that the warranty was voided when the other contractor altered your product? Did you get your minumum $65 service call fee (drive time) + the $ for time an materials (Rate $65 per hour billed in 15 minute increments plus materals marked up 100%)? I might be inclined to waive the service fee because it was a warranty claim but I certainly wouldn't absorb the other contractor's mistake without compensation. Your story gives me the idea to create a buyer's guide that I will give to them after we complete the transaction. The guidelines for filing a warranty claim, including the charges for service unrelated to the warranty will be clearly spelled out.
oh-it's even more interesting than THAT---- the customer had actually bounced the final payment check to me------and the masonry contractor was one I had recommended------------
stephen
And it looks like it will take an other 2 years for this thread to die..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Well, if you really want precision in a reroof one could count the number of shingles per row and multiply by the number of rows.
Might get exciting with a McMansion and binoculars from the ground.
Can't forget numbers to add ridge covers, starter strips, and mis...uh...never mind, we don't make mistakes.
I checked further by lifting a couple more shingles -- the stuff is indeed the OC version of I&W shield. Personally, I would never use the stuff if I was really concerned about ice problems -- the stuff doesn't stick to the deck much at all, and it sure isn't as elastic as the Grace product, meaning it won't seal the nail holes much, or any, better than felt.
However, having not specified Grace originally (I'll know better next time), I have no beef with the roofer and I will certainly give him a call, thank him profusely for following up, and apologize for making him come out to check.
Thanks everyone here for your input. I'm kinda glad it turned out to be a false alarm.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I'm kinda glad it turned out to be a false alarm.
Resolved in 200 posts. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"Resolved in 200 posts. "
;-)
Yeah, well, you gotta admit, some of those 200 went a bit far afield.
Still, 200 posts -- I think that's a record for me!Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
sounds like you owe somebody an apology.stephen
If you had no ice damming problems in the past, that's probably because you had sufficient ventilation in your attic. If the roofer kept or reinstalled the same vents, there should be no reason for you to have ice damming issues in the future.
Whew! Glad we got THAT settled!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"that's probably because you had sufficient ventilation in your attic"
LOL! Virtually none, 'till I installed some ridge vents and a bit of soffit vent a couple of years ago. Personally, I chalk it up to dumb luck. ;-)
Well, that, and the fact that snow/ice on the overhang melts just as fast as the snow on the main part of the roof. Lousy insulation has it's benefits!Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.