All,
I’m usually over in knots learning all I can about furniture building. Unfortunately I’m not physically capable of doing repairs/replacement to my home and I need to put together a budget. I don’t want to waste a tradesman’s time giving me quotes I can’t afford so I’m asking for some ballpark prices from you folks.
My house was built in ’86’ and is a two story hip roof colonial. I figure the roof requires about 13-14 squares and has only one layer of shingles currently. From the ground I don’t see any wear on the roof but it is 22 yrs. old. Any advise would be appreciated.
Replies
A photo would help
Pitch of roof and access ( re landscaping to protect or supplying roof with materials) are major cost factors you should mention.
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Piffin,It really doesn't photograph very well...unless I clime up there on a ladder which is a no can do. The garages/driveway is at street level and, so, the first floor is a full above the street and the house is two stories. Other than the driveway, the three sides of the house have landscaping or porch at normal levels, I don't think access to the roof would pose a problem.I don't know the pitch. My best guess is that the high point on the trapezoid is 8' and the dimensions of the base are 42x27'...so maybe a 8/12 pitch?. hope that helps.
So, you plan on overlaying the new shingles over the old....in my opinion, that's a bad idea...A pretty average price up here for installation of 3 tab on a low ptch(under 6) is 125 a square labor..Steeper the roof steeper the price...Add some extra ridges, valleys and hips and it goes up even more....My boys and I would do it for 200 a square, you arrange ALL materials and I want them boomed to the roof... If your drip edge is bad, it'll cost you extra to R&R..Ridge vents cost extra too...answer any questions?All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
??? I didn't see where he said anything about a layover???
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I must have misunderstood him.. He says that he already had a layer of shingles up there, and I assumed...(yep the first three letters of ASSume)..Just seemed wierd to mention said layer of shingles unless he planned an overlaymen.All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
Roughly 600-650/sq or so turnkey but still many variables possible.
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Wow I need to start roofing where you are. On the cape I am losing roofs that I am bidding at $375 a square. That includes all stripping cleanup disposal and installation of Certainteed Landmark shingle. Bid an 11 Sq colonial last week at 4200 and lost by $700 prices down here are all over the map.
I might could do that for a walk on single story.I got a shocker this spring. They just started charging fo rasphalt shingles by tonnage instead of volumn.What that means for me is that a load that was 40-50 bucks is now about $200 for around eleven squares. Nearly $20/sq just to dump the old! I can remember BUYING shingles for eleven bucks a square! now it costs more than that to get rid of the things.
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What's your breakdown for that 375 a square..Is that material included? And as far as a per square price, what are you getting for just the installation of say arch-type w/30#?All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
The 375 includes $100 to take them off $100 to put them on, $100 for materials and $75 to dispose. When we roof new construction I have been charging $95, we use i&w on 1st 3' and paper the rest.
you gotta be losing money on materials at only 100/sq, and with the high rates for WC insurance on roofing, you aren''t even making wages on the labor.
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Piffin
Owens-corning laminates are $93 a square and Certainteed Landmarks are similar.
Then you have to buy metal edge, paper, I&W, flashings (plumbing vents and flue pipes), Ridge vent and nails.
Yea, he is losing money on the materials for sure. Not to mention any kind of mark up or contingency pricing.
Rich
wow....you're cheap...with shingles and paper alone I think I'd farr pass the 100 a square...not to mention your new drip edges, your ice and water, new roof boots and a few tubes of Henrys....and only 100 a square labor for an 8 in 12 hip roof???? I'm getting 125 for roofs under 5 in 12(that's just paper and shingle labor, drips, boots and hips/valleys bring up the price even higher)
you might want to refigure your costs before you show up at dudes house with shingle pullers, roof jacks and a truck load of dudes...just my thaughts though...what do I know, I'm just a dumb Weatherization Technician:)All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
I am considered expensive in my area, avg going rate for strip and reroof is 285, so I am quite a bit more. I am a framing contractor not roofer so I don't do that many. I do only 8-12 roofs per year, and bid maybe 20, so I am not getting that many. As far as costs I am paying $80 a square for Landmarks, $8 for 8" white drip, $60 for a roll of I&W, believe $30 for a 4 sq roll of paper and a new pipe flange goes for 10 bucks. Disposal realy only costs $20 per sq. Me and 2 employees can strip and clean up 15 sq in 4 Hours (Front and back), that is $360 in labor and reinstall in 8 Hours 720 in labor. On a 15 sq roof I get $5650 and pay out around 1575 for materials 300 for disposal and 1080 in labor (360 of which is me). That leaves me with a gross profit of around $3550. I don't think that is bad for 12 Hours of work. What can you profit in 12 hours?
No insurances, eh?
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how you figure?
because you did not list it as a cost, tho that is one of the highest costs to bear for roofing.
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I am a registered s corp with all employees on payroll and carry workers comp and liability. Not sure how you arrived at no insurance
Cape
At $100/square for materials I think you are giving away money.
Using your numbers from post #
A gable roof with 50' eave and 15' rake would give you exactly 1500 SF.
Here is how I figure your materials
Material Name
Price
Quanitiy
Total
Shingles
$ 80.00
15
$1,200.00
Cap 30LF / bundle
$ 50.00
1.5
$ 75.00
Ice and Water 60LF/roll
$ 60.00
2
$ 120.00
Tar paper 4 sq/roll
$ 30.00
3
$ 90.00
Metal Edge LF
$ 1.00
160
$ 160.00
Nails staples misc fastners/Sq
$ 1.00
45
$ 45.00
Pipe Flashing
$ 10.00
2
$ 20.00
Subtotal Materials
$1,710.00
Subtotal w/ 10% conting
0%
$ -
Subtotal w/ 7% tax
7%
$ 119.70
20% markup
0%
$ -
Total Materials
$1,829.70
At $100/sq your materials are costing you over $300 more than you are charging for materials.
It's great that you are making great money on the labor and disposal, but it is not wise to pay for someone else's materials.
You don't have anything there for continengcy or markup either.
Rich
He is only figuring $30/hr labor too, without insurance, and that rate is on the good days.my materials costs are about 15% higher than his too, and not that far away.
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30 an hour does include ins I am not paying my employees 30 an hour.
Damn, you get cheap help down there. How can they afford to live?
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$20 an hour on payroll seems reasonable to me? What is paid in your parts?
might get a good man on payroll here for $20, but you can't pay him that and charge thirty and still make any money. Labor burden brings 20 up to about 35-36.
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Never said I charge 30 I charge 65 when framing we have been talking roofing. Regardless call it 40 and I still made great money on the roof I just completed. I do sell on quality as I said in my parts 285 is avg. nailing on shingles isnt that tricky nor is knowing if you are making money doing it. Not every task needs to be over analized. My customers do pay the tax my point was that it is not a cost for me. You are just itching to teach me something. As mentioned before I think I might just have it figured out.
MORE POWER TO YA
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Piffin
My material costs are higher than his too.
I can get off brand on sale laminates from a big box store for about $80/ sq.
I get all my shingles from local lumber yard and then I get delivery and returns picked up when I want them. Often times I get 1/2 of the order delivered the 1st day, and then the 2nd have of the materials when we have the last 1/2 of the roof stripped and ready.
I never figure roof materials as x$ /sq. Every roof is unique and I don't like leave money on the table.
The OP didn't mention ridge vents, can vents, starters, leaving a bundle for the garage floor or flue flashings. So I went a little easy on the price. The real price of the roof is closer to $2,000.
Cape Framer, we are not trying to hammer you, but trying to help you in our own clumsy BT way.
I would do all roofing in April thru June and again Sept thru Oct because the money is good.
But we have alot of illegal aliens crews working for pennies.
Rich
Well I will admit i was quick to respond when asked what the 375 breaks down to. In reality I guess it could be said 150 for materials 30 for disposal and 195 for labor. Doesn't really matter how you cut it, fact is when bringing in 5500-6000 in two days and spending only 2500-3000 you are making a good profit. If I could do that day in and day out I could profit quite a bit in a year. But what do I know I am just a framer, how could i ever figure out how to make a profit on a roof. The 15 sq roof in my example was a gambrel that I did two weeks ago so numbers are fairly fresh. As far as no allowance for extra stock when measuring I always add 10% to measured squarage. In mass we pay 5% sales tax and when I pay on time I get 5% discount so they cancel. Turns out I know what I am doing. I am begining to realize why no one on here ever volunteers numbers as ever know it all with a key board will let you know why you aren't making any money. I would love to see the guy that can consistantly sell roofs at 625 as was mentioned in a previous post pull that off in my parts, I get laughed at half the time with my price.
"In mass we pay 5% sales tax and when I pay on time I get 5% discount so they cancel. Turns out I know what I am doing. I am begining to realize why no one on here ever volunteers numbers as ever know it all with a key board will let you know why you aren't making any money. I would love to see the guy that can consistently sell roofs at 625 as was mentioned in a previous post pull that off in my parts, I get laughed at half the time with my price."So you aren't even letting the customer pay the sales tax? you volunteer to pay it for him with the discount that you earn?I have always consistently sold roofs at MY price, not just here but elsewhere. And I have always seen guys fighting for jobs based on low price, but never let them bother me. The only time I tried that was when I first started working for myself back ion about '72. it didn't take me long to figure out that somebody else was always cheaper. But not everybody can always compete by being better.There are always customers who are looking for the cheapest job, and there are always customers who are looking for the best job. I like the latter class of customer better.
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Piffen,
I think he showed quite clearly that he doesn't know his own numbers. In this thread alone his stated material cost went from $100/Sq. and then re-stated up to $150 after he did a little head scratching I am guessing that he isn't paying his workers comp.rates based on roofing--- but rather letting it slide as carpentry( which is Waaaaay lower)
and I can see he isn't allowing true costs for disposal( the stuff doesn't transport itselfand- as a framer I am guessing that he isn't carrying liability insurance to cover roofing work etc.---especially on occupied structures. but that's as far into this as I am going to go because I can see further discussion would be pointless, LOLBest wishes,
stephen
I'm loosing a lot of my shingle business to hungry framers right now, just like I lost a lot to storm chasers the last two years. I'm just letting them have it and have doubled my repair prices to cover time lost writing proposals so the HO can hand it to his BIL and have a price to beat.
And I'm getting lots of calls from people who had companies give them 10 year workmanship warranties and 6 months later, the phone is disconnected.
Lot's of blow-offs on those storm chaser jobs this spring - 2 or 3 high nails per shingle. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant, I am home early to day(rain)- we are about 2 days through a 4 day project which is actually the last of our hail jobs from 2007. It's a mildly depressing project because the house is very similar to so many that I have worked on over the last 20 plus years--- I know all the problems with the sagging eaves etc.---- and it just isn't practical to fix everything that COULD be fixed if money was no object---- I can fix 80 % of the problems quite effectively-- but the other 20% would quintuple the cost----and the neighborhood doesn't justify the investment interestingly-- the homeowner reads FHB-- so I am trying to do the best I can for a guy in modest circumstances( I have had a few people tell me of "competitors" who are "giving" 10 year warranties--- my response is---- how long have they been in business? 2 years you say?-- how's that 10 year warranty work with a company that's only been around for 2 years?????? LOL)
stephen
I may have mentioned this previously, but I've already replaced an entire roof (75 squares) done by storm chasers less than a year ago. Didn't leak before they reroofed it. Also ended up replacing the aluminum gutters damaged by the previous roofers with copper gutters, installing gutter filters, installing a copper chimney pot and retrimming the dormers that were boogered by the previous guys. They gave a 10 yr warranty as well.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Yeah, I already gave up the arguement. he has too many liquid numbers floating around and clearly doesn't have a grasp of his own business details.
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Paul
He is only 26, give him a break.
I know I didn't know 1/2 as much as him when I was 26.
His main problem is not knowing his numbers. It's not being teachable.
Capeframer, there are good people here who have walked this path and they have valuable insights.
Listen and learn.
Rich
PS I have posted numbers a good number of times, and yes it can come back to bite you, but I also learn each time I do and it makes for good discussion for everyone.
Edited 4/28/2009 8:16 am ET by cargin
I was being gentle, but he already knows it all, so he isn't teachable and not worth fighting with over it is why I signed off last night on it.
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At $375 a square you're getting work and you're making money. That's good.What the guys are trying to do is to get you to think more like a businessman instead of one who stumbles to profit through happenstance. And "happenstance" may not be the right word. All I'm trying to say is to take your numbers more seriously.Know your costs.Honors those costs. By truly knowing your numbers and respecting those numbers, and running a proper set of books, you'll become a better businessman.It can help with future bidding. It can help at tax time, as you'll have proper records and you might be able to write off or depreciate items that were previously unaccounted for.
you can lay 15 squares in 8 hours??? How many guys? And remove 15 in 4?? How many guys...All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
After watching another "pro" pi$$ing match here I appreciate my father even more for having taught me to swing a hammer myself.
Three guys.
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really?? that's damn impressive...what's your task order for each guy...Generally I'll hit a roof with one laborer. Me nailing and the greeny laying out ahead of me and cutting my endos... I try to get all of my starters, and ridges(although the last few arch-type I used those factory ridge shingles, they got a nice look, I think) cut before we start laying..Depending on the laborer I have that day I can sometimes lay 1 1/2 sq per hour...I always thaught that we were cookin', and by watching some crews around here I am, but damn Piff....you're making me look bad:)
So, what do you got your guys doing for that?? Help a brothers efficiency out...All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
I was answering with quoting what he had said earlier - that he could tear off and re-cover fifteen sq roof with three guys in a day. For a walk on roof, I would consider that about normal or slightly faster than normal for a shingle crew of three guys.I was part of a two man crew in Texas where the company expected a quota of a square an hour per man, whether off or on, for composition on a roof 5/12 or less. We always beat that when it was just the two of us, but on larger roofs where they sent 'help' out with us, it fell way off.when I was shingling new roofs in FL my partner and I would typically get a new 30-32 square roof laid by about 2PM. These rates were all hand nailing.No big secrets to meting a high rate other than doing it every day - day in and day out. You get in good shape and pick up small efficiencies so there is no wasted motion.Usually one man start running metal while the other marked off for chalk lines, then each guy grabs a hatchet and a bundle and starts nailing. For pure nailing on a stocked, chaulked open run wide space I have hit four sq an hour, all four nailed, but normal rate was 2/hr with edges cuts etc and cleanup. When you have rot and repairs, it all changes.Not that a man's rate answers the Q of roof cost to the HO. anybody who can lay a roof faster than average and still do good work deserves to make more than the average guy..But too much of the problem with roofing is the pay based on piecework/ production. Lot of careless work and missing or misplaced nails from the hacks.
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"...I would typically get a new 30-32 square roof laid by about 2PM..."
32 square? I feel good if I get 32 shingles nailed down in that amount of time.
That was my partner AND I.
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I can't count on my fingers and toes how may tear offs I have done where one section of the roof was extraordinarily easy to remove, and at further inspection, it was because there were only 2 or 3 nails per shingle... HACKS.... I don't mind though, that stuff makes my worst work look phenomenal...not that I do bad work:)All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
it was because there were only 2 or 3 nails per shingle...
If you had to remove 'em, then maybe those HACKS knew the playing field better. If I installed shingles with only two nails, it's not likely anybody would have to remove 'em...... http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
We recently had a number of roofs bid --all around 15 squares, two story houses with 12/12 pitches. Bids hovered around 8 grand. These guys were hungry too.
BG
Even if you have a single layer I would consider a full strip of the old roof,
Reason are; any bad wood can be repaired, plus most manufactures don't warranty their three tab when installed over another roof. Also your old roof is most likely pre ice dam material. A helpful step in the Boston area.
Looks like you are in the Boston area my sister in NJ just had hers done I need to check the sf but she had a tear off of three layers and 35 year architural put down along with all proper flashings, ice dam and underlayment I think she was around 18 square but need to check that.
The roofers were not as hungry as you would think 2 bids were 14,000 plus, the one she went with about 8,000, Smaller company he did two other houses in the neighborhood.
I think part of the pricing was she is a single woman, and they thought she did not do her homework.
Wallyo
Wallyo
Edited 4/27/2009 11:27 am by wallyo
Wallyo,My neighbor had his roof done last week. He was told the work could not be warranted unless the original roof was removed also..not that I've heard it twice maybe it's true.My neighbors house is larger than mine by maybe 10% or so. His bids came back at $10,000-$20,000 and an extra $1000 for roof removal. On Thursday at noon time they started, by Friday 5 ish they were done. Five guys, looked like 4 from another country. From all appearances they did a fine job. He spent $11,000 and got a 10 year warrentee on material and labor. it just seems a bit high to me..
BG seems a bit high to me also, Just for kicks I will email my sister to see what the three bids ran actually.Last year we had two rentals here done mid 8K for one close to 20 sq lots of tear off some places three layers some two. hips valleys three dormers one garage.The other was smaller 16 sq ran about 6k much simpler no dormers four small valleys, the roof is hip and in the shape of a capital E, detached garage. tear off was one roof in parts and two in others. But that is Idaho.Wallyo
Edited 4/27/2009 1:22 pm by wallyo
Yah, a ten year warrantee on labour is a bit high for most.
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BGThe bids my sister in NJ got are$5,925 which included the new ceiling on the porch
$12,600
$16,000for 16 sqThe 5925 included new vinyl bead board to replace 12x12 stained ceiling tile where the roof leaked through on her three season sun porch probably 10x10 if that big. Oh the other two bids no bead board.Wallyo
Edited 4/28/2009 9:53 pm by wallyo
After Pop died, my mother's house in IL needed a new roof along with box gutters removed and framed in with a small overhang.
Since she lives 2000 mi away, brother asked 8 outfits for a bid, only one looked and did not bid.
Ended up using some ff miles ang taking back nailer, etc. to do her roof, only about 10 sq as we just did the south side, northwas sitll mostly ok except for the ridge. Younger son also flew in from Protland, OR to help (more ff miles)
Spent only about $500, all for nails and 3-tab, including rebuilding the eaves with surplus lumber. 12/12 slope and was still able to do it over 60 YO.
Put the roof job info and some pix here a couple of years ago to ask why nobody bid. One case where $5K or so would have sold the job.
Area house is in market value only $50K or so. The pro roofer's & framers here said it was no wonder there was no interest in bidding or doing the job, due to the framing aded tasks, most said it was a $20K job 3 years ago during the building boom.
Good luck, hopefully there are some hungry folks will at least bid for you.
Junkhound,"hopefully there are some hungry folks will at least bid for you"That can be an issue. My dear aunt and uncle ( she an attny., He a MD.) had a hell of a time getting quotes...five minutes with them and you'd know why.
This kind of went off track (but useful info). Did you get questions answered? When you said presently have shingles are they asphalt?
I know that if they were wood or wood shakes the insurance companies rate them up by about 20%. A decent dimensional is discounted 10%. Makes a difference in cost over the life of the roof. Tyr