Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 16, 1999 12:59am | #1

   *
   Clifford, if you satisfied that your contractor is reputable, shouldn't you trust his judgement?

   Question #3 If your only concern is color, then cover the offensive corners with paint, flashing material, cover with a small piece of "dibiten" etc. Legally, unless there is a specific breach, and you can prove that the installation was faulty, nothing!

   Question #2, Beauty is in the eye of ..... Industry standards are set by the local industry.

2. 
   Tony_Klugman | Mar 16, 1999 01:08am | #2

   *
   What the heck is "dibiten"?

   What is a parapet wall?

   Excuse the ignorance.

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 16, 1999 01:23am | #3

   *
   Tony, I'm not familiar with "Dibiten". I don't know if it's a typo or just a localized product. There are a dozen different types of flat roof membranes and they act pretty much the same.

   A parapet, on a flat roof, is the buildup or knee wall around the perimeter.

4. 
   g.o.w. | Mar 21, 1999 07:10pm | #4

   *
   anyone have a simple explanation of how the author of the "The Steel Square" determines the tangents used in his methods of calculation? How does it compare to rise/run?

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 21, 1999 07:31pm | #5

   *
   Ken Drake is "The Grandfather of Building Math," and I predict soon to be author of "Tangents And Their Use In Construction"...Ask him or hope he sees this thread.

   J

6. 
   g.o.w. | Mar 21, 1999 08:02pm | #6

   *
   Thank you Adirondack Jack, I'll see if I can make contact

7. 
   Guest_ | Mar 22, 1999 01:23am | #7

   *
   g.o.w.,

   Several books have been written over the years about "The Steel Square". Who is the author?

   Give an example on how he uses the tangents for a particular situation and then I'm sure either myself or some of the others reading this post will be able to answer your question.

   How does this relate to parapet walls and dibiten?

8. 
   g.o.w. | Mar 22, 1999 03:32am | #8

   *
   Ken Drake The Steel Square-H.H.Siegele. Being a newcomer to the world of trigonometry and trying to understand the meaning(simple if possible) of the word tangent I read in the book mentioned above about tangents and their relation to circles. In chapter 13 Siegele talks of finding edge bevels for hip and valley rafters and says- "Take the tangent on one arm of he square, and the length of the rafter on the other-- the latter gives the edge bevel". In chapter 15 he shows a circle, a framing square, a tangent length,and a rafter length. Are these tangents the same? Is there a formula to use to arrive at the tangents? Also,in the book, "Framing Roofs", the best of Fine Homebuilding, page 138, "Framing with Trigonometry", E.Zurawski talks of the tangent as being equal to rise divided by run. Are these forms of the tangent the same? related? Distant cousins? parapet and dibiten unrelated

9. 
   Guest_ | Mar 22, 1999 07:05am | #9

   *
   g.o.w.,

   Let me start by asking you a question. Can't you come up with a more interesting name to log on with than g.o.w.? Have a nickname perhaps? Make something up. I really don't care what your name is, but can't you do better than that? I hate communicating with INITIALS.

   Let's talk first about the meaning of the word tangent, as it relates to roof framing. Suppose we are framing a roof and the pitch is 8/12. 8" is the "unit rise". The "unit run" is always 12". The ratio of the rise to the run, 8/12, or .6667, is the tangent of the roof angle. If you look up the angle in a table of tangents, you would find that the angle whose tangent is .6667 is 33.69 degrees.

   All of the tangents that you mention in the examples in your post all boil down to this same thing. The ratio of rise divided by the run. No, they are not distant cousins. They are one in the same.

   I am familiar with H.H. Siegle's works as well as the article in The Best of Fine Homebuilding by Edwin Zurawski. The tangents that they refer to are the same tangents.

   To get a better handle on roof framing, read more current information on the subject, ( like what's coming down in Breaktime ).

   The old ways were good for their day, but modern methods for cutting roofs are far superior. I've read many articles about roof framing written in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Unless you have a good understanding of the subject before you read this material, it is likely to be confusing.

   Go to the Amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com sites and search for roof framing. You'll find books which deal with more up to date methods for roof framing.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 22, 1999 08:21am | #10

   *Tell em' Ken! Hey gow. have you read Blue's book called "WHACKIN' EM' AND STaCKEN' EM', 21ST CENTURY STYLE?

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 04:19am | #11

   *Boogerin Co-author anytime....How about PBS show "Boogerin In The Home Trades W/ The Best Of Them." hosted by AdirondackJack w/ co-star and head Boogerer, The Blue Eyed Devil...Did I get that backwards???On the mountain, dreamin of..."bright lights"...Movie Stars...& Big Cigars....Aah the life!!!J

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 05:08am | #12

   *g.o.w.,

   Let me say that my background in mathematics is a simple one. I don't have any professed mathematical expertise's. But, I do know this; A tangent is any line that touches one and only point on the arc of a circle, further, if a line is drawn from this point of intersection perpendicular (at 90 degrees) to the tangent it will pass through the center of said circle. Every tangent line has one radial line associated with it. Any circle has an infinite number of tangent points.

   The relationship of the sides and angles they form of a "right triangle" have been well document for the last 4000 years or so, nothing new here. The Trigonometric ratios that involve the three side and three angles of a right triangle are also well documented. Basically, knowing any two of the six parts will give you enough information to "construct" the triangle. These relationships are applied to building roofs because they are simply triangular structures.

   Joseph FuscoView Image

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 05:23am | #13

   *Joe,Good points but I think three items must be known to know all six...In a right triangle, two items plus the right angle still equals three needed...Ken is the real whiz here though,J

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 05:38am | #14

   *Jacky,

   Did you always need to be "spoon" feed, or did it just pop up one day? Must be all that green beer. Would it make you feel better if I agree with the obvious, two plus the 90.

   P.S. don't make me bring out my flames now. I've been a good boy lately ;-}

   Joseph FuscoView Image

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 06:09am | #15

   *Joe,You were explaining tangents and triangles...as in all triangles...no mention was made of it pertaining to only right triangles...just clearing up your post for others...On the mountain,J

10. 
    Geoffrey_ | Mar 23, 1999 06:26am | #16

    *
    Haven't read whack and stack as of yet. Been dancing with roofs for a few years now. The trig side has an appeal along with the empirical. Like to blend the two for speed ,accuracy, practicality. That's going in the right direction, Joe

11. 
    Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 06:57am | #17

    *

    Jack,

    This reply is a good example of < Obsolete Link > this.

    Joseph Fusco

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 05:04pm | #18

   *I'm a good sidekick! I don't mind the backseat, you shoulda seen the babes that I met back there!Blue

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 23, 1999 05:09pm | #19

   *I only know geometry, but might like to explore a little trig.My daughter showed me how to use the tangent function on her calculator once, but I really didn't think it was faster, so I stopped the learning process.Is there any where in normal residential work that would necessiate the need for trig vs geometry?Is trig a faster application to run to calculate the necessary components of moast frame techniques?Does the additional knowledge of trig, make the understanding of roof framing techniques easier?Juat curious,Blue

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 24, 1999 12:25am | #21

   *Blue,

   The answer to your questions are no (in my opinion). I'm sure that ones practical experience, like yours would "pocket" most around here. You'd probably be long gone while their still "pushing" buttons!

   Joseph FuscoView Image

12. 
    Clifford_ | Mar 24, 1999 12:25am | #20

    *
    I recently had my garage roof done by a fairly reputable contractor. My garage roof is flat with parapet walls. The roofer recommended that I use dibiten on the roof and the parapet walls. At the intersection of the corners on the parapet wall, the roofer used a white cap seal (which was not specified in the contract). The dibiten material I chose was slate colored. When I asked the roofer to make the cap seal match the roof color, he refused. My questions are: (1) Should the roofer have used cap seal to seal the intersections (where the dibiten material laps over each other), or should they have heated the asphaltic material and applied stone dust? (2) Is there an accepted industry practice that a residential garage roof should be mildly attractive?, and (3) What can I do now? Any help will be appreciated.