I’ve been reroofing my house and been wondering what typical production rates are for something similar to mine. This is my first attempt at roofing (and last, I’ve decided) and while I hired a roofing company to tear off, repair and dry it in it seems to be taking me a ridiculous amount of time to finish. The company who did the tear off estimated a pro roofer could finish it in 3 days by himself (shingles, flashing and venting I’m assuming).
approx. 18 squares, timberline 30s, 10 pitch on main body, ridge vented (needs slots cut) new chimney flashing, all papered in but installing drip edge/starter as I go.
What sort of progress per person would you expect out of your crew/sub on something like this? I guess what I’m looking for is a square per man rate for a cut up steeper type roof.
Anyone care to weigh in??
Replies
As long as you do it right what's the difference? Speed is highly over rated.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
I agree and if I was the only one who had to live in the house with a minor leak occasionally on the unfinished portion it'd be fine. But the pressure's on...
Three guys four days, tore off, dried in, reshingled, reflashed, cleaned up and cashing a check.
If it needed resheeted add one more day. I'm stronger now even after all the things you did to me, still alive and kicking.
I agree.View Image
Three guys four days
Possibly one more day if the side wall flashing is particularly difficult.
Yeah, speed is overrated - do it right. It took a crew seven weeks to do my entire roof, from tear off to finish in wood and copper and some membrane. 13 years ago, I thought this was too long - today, after zero problems, I'm glad they took the time.
I've learned that roofing is one of those things you've really got to be right on from the beginning.
Forrest
that is a cut -up roof
6 - 10 days
Did my shake roof alone; tear off, new gutters, new downspouts, skip sheathing, flashing and 16 sq of new shakes required 14 days included cleanup. It's been 16 years and not a single problem so far and I think it's going to stay that way for another 15 to 20 years at a minimum. There were a couple of moments when I thought I'd bitten off too much for one person but persistence gets the job done sooner or later. As was said before, it's your personal roof and getting it correct is more important then getting it done quickly. I think about how bullet proof it is, the extra detail that I put into it, each time we get a real heavy rain storm and the wind is blowing it sideways.
I know more than a few three man crews that would strip, reroof and have it cleaned up in 4 days tops.
It's been 20 years since I've actually nailed shingle down for profit. But, two summers ago I helped an old friend do his roof. 5 valleys 2 chimneys 30 square. Myself and one other guy who had actually put on a roof, three helpers.
Started Saturday at 0700. Packed up at 8 PM Sunday.
But, It's your house. AS long as it's done right, does it matter?
There's a lot of flashing and cutting in that roof. don't try to compare yourself to a pro roofer. It is a very athletic strenuous job.I would probably take 5-6 days now ( I an old worn out guy) but would have used three days twenty years ago.
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I was once, about 20 years ago, as a very young man a Pro Roofer.
It was the first job I had after breaking from the Family. Just Roofing and some wood siding.
Then one day I saw the light. Well, my knees saw the light anyway and I went back to framing. Because we all know how much easier that is on your body.
By myself today? I would need a week. I still know a ton of two and three man crews who could knock that out in three days includung the rip off and clean up.
Ironically, I'm in better shape now twenty years later than I was any day I ever nailed a Shingle down for profit. But then again, it was a time before kids and responsibility and the Army. I think every dime I ever made from a roof was spent in support of those girls Jeff Buck always talks about. You know, the ones to poor to afford clothes that have to dance around to stay warm.
Edited 7/23/2006 11:36 am ET by robert
Well. the OP, IIRC, came accross as a HO/DYIer and never mentioned his method of nailing the shingles.
With a compressor, hose and gun, speed is upped dramatically. If he's hand-tabbing, the time and misery will be extended a bit.
>>>>>>>>With a compressor, hose and gun, speed is upped dramatically. If he's hand-tabbing, the time and misery will be extended a bit.Probably not much for a DIY. There's no big wide open spaces on that roof. If you're not used to walking a roof, the gun and hose can trip you up. You spend more time getting set than laying shingles. He'd be better off sticking with a hammer and nails IMHO.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
Normally I would agree, but on that roof I would go with Seeyou.
If he has never used a gun before he might spend more time dragging it around, kicking it off the roof and generally moving it out the way.
I would even be inclined to hand nail the sides. Not sure it would be worth dragging a gun around in that tight space.
On the nice low pitch square runs, the gun would cut the time by 2/3 maybe.
about the gun - I just finally bought roof nailer. Back when I was young and full of it, I ould lay 'bout as many hand nailing as with a gun working for the company. 'course gns and compressors then weren't what they are now...But my experience this past week on two roofs is that I can still lay as fast by hand as with the guyn - but the gun makes it a whole lot easier on my body, and both speeds are slowed way down from several years ago
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
When I did the three squares that cover my shed I noticed that my fingers don't turn nails as fast as they used to.
I've said this before, but when I shingled regularly, I could keep up with a guy with a gun nailing by hand on Monday. Tuesday, he'd get a little ahead of me. By Friday he'd be leaving me in the dust. The real trick (IMHO) is having one guy throwing for 2-3 guys with guns. That's the way my guys work now on a plane big enough to support it. It's amazing how much roof they can cover in an hour.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
Bless you my son, for your concern for the underdressed and under fed
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I had the money back that I made in those days? I'd be retired by now.
Actually, I hated roofing. Kinnda of a shame too because my dad had hooked me up with one of the biggest roofing contractors in the area.
I could have easily set up and run four or even five crews and kept them busy six days a week. That's what he kept pushing.
I still had that romanitc notion of being a guy doing all the work and being that salt of the earth guy who made every dollar with his won two hands.
I didn't listen when he said stay in the Army either. HAd I listened, as of 18 June I would have started my break assignment and began scheduling my ACAP so I could retire in just under two years. Instead of the Almost 10 I have to go now.
Funny how smart they get as we get older.
It's taken me longer than almost anyone's estimates, but that's OK. I keep telling myself that the savings are where it's at, but I'm kidding myself. The real value is in having it done right.The crew I hired to tear off and paper left chunks of wood and nails stuck to the deck all over the place, didn't lap the Ice & Water up the walls far enough as I requested, etc, etc. My point is that if I'd hired them or someone else to finish up we'd never have known.Besides, putting on a roof is one of those things I've always wanted to do for myself. There, done. Never again.
you'd be amazed at how many people from all walks of life have toold me, "I used to do roofing"
It's something they learned to hate early on.I was a slow learner and a fast layer
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Waterbear,
Oh please don't say that, never again. It was over ten years later but I've redone my roof now in cedar shakes.. Actually a totally differant roof. Much, much, larger and with a much steeper roof (27/12 pitch) all cut up as well! (11 dormers) it went much, much easier!
One of the tricks I found out is to work off a work platform on a forklift.. With your feet flat on a nice wide (10'x4') your tools by your side and shingles all stacked up neatly within easy reach I could simply fly!
Steep roofs are such a breeze when you work off a work platform because it's like shingling a wall except everything is always at exactly the correct height. no bending no reaching no delicate balance or a fall to your doom.. if you drop something you simply bend over to pick it up. your water or other beverage is right there, you can have your radio playing right by you so it doesn't have to be blaring out at max volume with max distortion.
If I do it again I think I will rig an awning so I can work in the shade and if it rains I could stay dry.. Yeh! work in the rain on a roof! <G>
Edited 7/25/2006 6:40 am ET by frenchy
We roofed the last spec house we did out of the box too Frenchy. We still weren't faster than our roofing subs but we were comfortable!
blue
Blue, do you have the means to move your Skytrak from job to job yourself? Or do you have an excavator or someone like that move it for you?View Image
Let me speed this up cause Im nosey.
Why do you ask?
hehehe
Guess;
"Bigger Truck Justification"?Troy Sprout
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."Oscar Wilde
Naw, no way I could justify a truck capable of pulling 20,000lb+. I just know that Blue has a fair amount of equipment so I'm just wondering if he has a dump and trailer capable of moving the machine himself. If he subs it out (as I do) the follow up question would be to ask what it costs him for a move whether it be by the hr, mi, or whatever.View Image
They are seldom loaded here unless they are comming to or leaving town. They run the streets and hyways . I dont see a problem since a hay baler is allowed through all the stop lights .
Tim
Anything other than a mi or two at 5am would be a ticket waiting to happen around here. Within 5 mi. and I'd consider an early morning Commando run with my truck leading w/ the strobes lit... but that situation has yet to present itself. I work in about a 60 mi radius of my house. Ocassionally even further.View Image
dieselpig,
I think I can answer that question for you.. It costs about a $100.00 dollars to move a forklift a relatively short distance. 20 to 30 miles or so.. Guys who do it for a living tend to charge more than guys who have equipment like an excavator they need to haul around..
When our shop moves it for you we have two rates.. one if it's a back haul and one if we need to make a seperate trip. Actually our hourly rate is the same it's just that one way you pay for the trip out and back while the other way we pick it up when we are in the area.. We have 5 trucks hauling full time and if you ask for it to be moved right now you pay roughly twice what it costs if you have us to it on a back haul basis..
Frieght is getting tough.. I had one quote of $1340.00 to haul a forklift up near the border. we eventually found someone to haul for about $900.00 Once in the area he will most likely either pay a local to haul it for him or maybe even drive it himself..
Some forklifts travel at decent speeds on the road. Ours for example is about 21 or 22 MPH and with the SMV triangle fully legal to drive on the road.. Others like Lulls for example can only travel at around 12 MPH and in the dead of winter are even slower. Gehl is one brand I would be extremely carefull about road driving.. They have hubs with tiny little filler holes and no breather, draining the old oil out is a 45 minute job and can take nearly as long to fill. Per hub!
The hubs on forklifts get pretty warm since those planetary's are spinning like crazy, depending on the brand and the outside temp you may safely travel from 10 minutes to an hour before you risk buring up the planetary oil.. If you road drive a great deal it's probably worth it to install a synthetic oil..
Hubs aren't the only issue.. Tires get pretty hot on a warm summer day and while I've never seen a tread thrown I have seen some tires chunk out pretty well.
Hope I answered your question If you'd like more info I'll be glad to help.
Thanks Frenchy.. that was pretty informative. I have a couple of excavation contractors who move mine for me. If I'm flexible and give them enough notice, between the two, I can usually get it moved just about when I want it to. They both charge me $85/hr and sometimes don't even charge me at all if they're already in the area and it's a convenient move for them. My machine usually gets moved after-hours when they're done hauling for the day. And I usually have a cold twelve pack waiting for the driver at it's destination for his trouble.
FWIW, I have a Cat TH-360. I don't know anything about the hubs, but I do know the rest of isn't afraid to break down on occasion. I just got a notice for my second recall item this year... the joysticks. Last recall was for the real locking differential. Their solution? Disconnect it and change the load ratings for the machine?!?! I was beside myself. It was like knowingly participating in getting robbed. Next time around I'll look a lot closer at the IR's.View Image
That machine must make you money. Can you use that as a man-lift as well as a fork-lift?
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Yeah, they're pretty great to have around. Yes, we use it as a man lift as well and that's when you really start to figure out how productive they are. I can't tell you how comfortable it is to work up there with good solid footing, rails around you, and plenty of space to actually work. The more you mull it over, the more ways you find to use it to increase ease, safety, and production.View Image
View ImageView Image
Nice. Company lettering and all.
I have painting and repair work to do on the 3 gables of my house. It's about 35 ft high. I also have to trim back some tree limbs that are getting too close to the roof. I got a quote of $720 (including transport) for a week from the local rental outfit. A lot of cash, but I don't like working off the ladder any more. Lifts are way safer. I know I could make good use of it for a week. Maybe I better just suck it up and do it.
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Brian - since this thread has been hijacked already - I pay $100-$125 per move for my machine, depending on distance and/or if it's a backhaul. I use a dedicated machinery mover (they're subs for the company I bought my machine from). After the first two or three moves, they realized I was a valuable customer and started charging me less or giving me more. The last move, I had a tire going flat. They called and asked if I wanted them to take it to a tire place and get it fixed. I figured I had no choice so I said OK. I got a discount at the tire place because of the mover and the mover didn't add anything to the repair or charge me for the extra time going to the tire place. Who'd a thunk it.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
Maybe the OP won't mind the hijack since he's about finished up with his roof.
That sounds like a great price Grant... with service to boot. Maybe I should shop around a bit.View Image
dieselpig,
There have been sooo much trouble with the new style cats that Cat finally stopped selling them and plans to close the plant in England where they are made.
Actually the new company in the business is JLG, they produced their own for a bit and we were asked to evaulate them with a consideration of being a dealer for them.. It was so roundly rejected by everybody that they then bought out many forklift manufacurers. Lull , Skytrack, Cat, Gradeall etc. Effectively buying their market share.. They had to do that since the market is so crowded..
There used to be 18 brands of forklifts sold here in Minnesota.. some brands are pretty inactive and some are the dealer of the month kinda deal..
They expect the final brand availablity to come down to a few major brands and a couple of hangers on. Ingersol Rands stratagy is to dominate the market.. like we do in Air compressors and road compaction equipment.. I know that not all of the cost of developing the forklift was paid for by the forklift division.. The factory has a deal whereby if someone quotes a lower price on an apples to apples deal they get assistance to match the price and the dealer makes the same profit..
I found out too that we rent our forklift for $450 a month less than the rental houses here. it was even more once we read the fine print and they didn't want to let us capture the equity thru an easy way to purchase it..
I've done some reading about the merger of which you speak. I thought I was in the clear when Cat did away with the older style machines (the TH63, 83, and 103) and came out with this new line like I have, the TH-360B. It was supposed to the version with all the kinks worked out.
All in all, it's a pretty nice machine and has served us well. There have been a few annoying problems but that thing with the rear-locking differential was just a deal breaker. I just bothers me when I know I could have got more bang for the buck. I chose Cat because I was relatively unfamiliar with heavy equipment so I bought the most recognizable name brand I could find that had a service center close by. I guess that's exactly what they were banking on. If the service and maintenance rates were at least bearable I could deal with it a little better. But the bills for even routine maintenace are staggering. At least the regular service intervals are few and far between with the way we use it as framers.
Live and learn.View Image
Does it have a Cat engine ?
Tim
Perkins diesel.View Image
Thats crazy.
The Cat engine is the most respected engine there is and they put a perkins in it which I dont have a clue about , lol.
Tim
I don't know about their current line but Perkins are well regarded in marine applications. My understanding is that many refrigeration compressors used in over the road trucking are Perkins powered. My sailboat has a nice little 37HP diesel that apparently originated as a tractor engine.
Thanks fors sharing that.
Tim
lol....View Image
We hire a trucking firm. It costs about $100 per hour.
blue
Thanks. So I guess I'm doing ok then. View Image
I think your doing okay. We've talked about trying to cut our moving costs and when we figure out that we might be able to save $15 per hour, we call somebody. They never can do it in our time frame and we end up calling that same mover (they sell and service our machine) and we just bite the bullet. We've never driven it over the road, but we would consider that if the move isn't far.
I never thought about a sky jack, but I did consider the awning idea. I was up there when we had a week of 90-95 temps and even though I'd work early and late I missed the hours that were so hot the shingles practically fell apart if you looked at them.For next time you could build an enclosure with those freezer drapes, install some A/C and be roofing at 70 degrees no matter the weather. <G>
Three days max
woody, AND roof a house?
Waterbear,
The first time I did my roof It took me a month to do by myself.. A month of nights and weekends. nights "til it got so late that neighbors complained weekends at least 12 hours a day. I rented a nail gun and when I finally returned it the rent was greater than the retail price of a new one!
That's about how long it's taken me. Almost there. I had to laugh about your gun costing more to rent than buy one. I was lucky enough to know a guy who loaned me his PC gun, but as some others have said it takes a while to get used to.
I just subbed out a shingle job on new house that I origianlly planned to do myself. Ha!!!
Finally I got wiser and figure my time is worth every penny that i paid these guys. It would have taken me at least a month. Here's the breakdown...
54 squares GAF timberline 30s
4 guys from honduras (not a one could speak english)
Started on a Thursday about noon
Had tools packed up, garbage cleaned, everything done Friday by 3:00 pm
No siesta, 30 minute lunch, I figure they probably had about 12 hours into this.
Total bill for their labor $1620.00 1620/12=135. 135/4=$33 hour per man(of course Ididn't figure in any overhead)
They did a first rate job! My father was a GC for years (before nail gun days) and my brothers and I helped shingle more houses that i care to remember. I was there both days and "observed" while I did some rough grading. According the the lumberyard who referd them, they are the only "GAF factory trained" roofers in the area.
BTW I'm in a hyper-competitve building area and I had multiple roofers stop by to "bid" when they saw my walls going up. Bids ranged from $30 to $55 square on these drive bys.
Like I said worth every penny...
CRF,
Exporting our construction, Kinda the real final blow to American labor.
I know it's happening, I even sell them equipment. Yet I feel it's a sad commentary about American ambition..
Nothing good will come out of this..
I speak fluent spanish and had several good conversations with them as I observed. Most of them have lived n the states for almost 10 years and were legal citizens. The leader was trying to start his own business roofing here to get out from the umbrella of the lumberyard, I told him that no one will take them serious until they learn how to speak proper english.
But they knew how to shingle and did it well.
To the OP, my hat is off to you for tackling this job solo.
Its easiar to write a check and make it back somewhere else . Really.
You are assumming that it would not have been done right if you had hired it done . Thats not true exactly but could have been the case . You could have done a good job of pre picking your roofer. There ae a few here that I would have forgot about till time to pay.
To answer your question;
1 good roofer
plus 1 good hand or two good roofers total. We often have to do what we have to do with the crew we have . The job needed more help than 1 or 2 to fight weather . Normally one man doesnt tackle such a roof. It could have blew up in your face with a hard rain on felt and not flashed properly while it was under construction. Since you had it open to the elements.
The proper way to have roofed it by your self would have been to strip a section and roof it back in sets. That way it would have stayed covered. Its just too cut up to leave you with the whole job uncoverd to roof. I wish I could refer you to deisels story of his nail apron filling up with water as he was playing kite with tarps, being a frog in a strong rain. Anyway he was out there every minute it was raining . Im too old for that shid but he did what he had to do.
The time on that roof with that much flashing and the pitch to consider as cut up as it is ;
1/2 sg per man hour complete just covering it back up which is what you did .However theres not much roofing time there . Two men , 40 hrs would have been a realistic bid time or 80 man hours.
Theres plenty here that could beat that time but Im talking bidding . Thats what the job should have sold for here. Thats why its a speedsters sport.
Tim
"Its easiar to write a check and make it back somewhere else"-Except when you don't have the cash. "You could have done a good job of pre picking your roofer."-I thought I did. I was very explicit about what I wanted and reviewed multiple estimates. One problem was that two of the "top" roofing companies in the area didn't even show up for the appt. This guy has done a couple co-workers' roofs and I've referred a few people to him, all satisfied. -The difference: a new crew and lack of supervision. "It could have blew up in your face with a hard rain on felt and not flashed properly while it was under construction. Since you had it open to the elements."-I had ice and water installed over the entire deck lapped up onto the walls and the first thing I did was improvise some flashing in case I did get caught (part of what's taking so long I guess.) In any case there was no flashing to begin with (unless you count roofing cement) so leaks were a reality before the tear off."The proper way to have roofed it by your self would have been to strip a section and roof it back in sets."You have a good point there. I considered it but really didn't want to strip the thing myself and hoof the shingles up there. Plus, we have to pass a roof deck inspection here. I would have loved to see the expression on the inspectors face as I asked him if he could stop by every morning until I was done to see the section I'd uncovered. So how does everyone here pre-qualify their roofer?
Go look at jobs he has done and talk to his previous customers
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Im not tryin to give you blue balls here . I think you did the best job you could do at the time .
What Piff said for one .
I dont know what contacts you have so its hard to mention. If I dont have such knowledge I call other contractors in my area . Thats done all the time . I dont take what a lumber yard says though . Normally the guys they will reccomend are exclusively using their products. Of course thats not why Im asking and they ARE NOT qualified to give me a reference on a roofer except that he pays his bills . On the other hand a roofer might even be in arrears and be reccomended .
Tim
Anyway thanks for the feedback guys.A couple more courses, ridge vents and I'm done.
Congratulations! You should be proud! It's a heckuva commitment to brave the forces of nature, gravity and age to install a roof like that.
I bet you don't have any flashing "details" like these "pros" installed on my roof...
View Image
Troy Sprout
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."Oscar Wilde
Edited 7/24/2006 10:53 pm by Hackinatit
Thanks.Although my flashing didn't provide the false sense of security yours did it was about as effective.I think the previous roofer ripped off all the old flashing and then wasn't sure what to do. The attached pics. are the results.
I reroofed my house. First job, although I had helped out once or twice before.
35 sq.
12 in 12 pitch
2 dormers, 1 shed dormer,
2 valleys
1 chimney
Tore off old shakes ahd hauled them to the dump.
Had to fix up weird fasa boards adn spot paint stuff.
Total naive job was 300 man hours. I think my tear off and clean up was about 1/3 of that time.
MIND YOU, 12 in 12 pitch!
Ive found I like painting them better .
Tim